• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Alternative Non-Surgical Possibilities for Addressing CCI/AAI or Other Serious Neck Issues

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,932
Also, @pattismith 's exercises in her post above look intriguing and definitely worth a try!

How long do you typically hang out in this position? Do you increase the time spent?

Less than 1 minute when you start, and then increase to several minutes.

I found it to be effective when done several minutes (maybe 3-5) X several times a day.

it's important to feel your neck completely relaxed when your head is hanging freely. Go slow when you go in the position and go slow when you go out. It's important to feel comfortable, and to feel it doesn't hurt.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
SOTA in Canada was approved by Dr. Beck for creating devices that were faithful to his specifications. They're also recommended by The Bob Beck Legacy Association (bobbeck.com). Their Magnetic Pulser is a PEMF (pulsed electromagnetic field device) that is unusually strong and is built to last for over 30 million pulses. The magnetic field can reach up to 9 inches into the body on regular mode (6000 guass/0.6 Tesla), or 7 inches on fast mode (2500 gauss). It's currently $380 USD.

It was originally developed to get lymph flowing better and to neutralize pathogens:


I've been using the magnetic pulser for a couple of weeks along my lymph nodes, along with the blood electrifier and a decade-long swollen lymph node in my neck is finally reducing, sometimes almost to a normal size but it fluctuates a lot.

I don't think I have CCI but I do have an old cervical spine injury from a virus that attacked my spinal cord, so I'm going to start using the pulser on my spine to see what happens.

Here is a DuckDuckGo search for 'pemf cervical instability'.



A PEMF device would probably help even more. They're becoming more well known for relieving inflammation along with increasing blood flow to specific areas to speed healing, and have other benefits.

Dr. Pawluk's site has a lot of PEMF info.
Pemf might be helpful, but I don’t see how it’s better than dc microcurrents with electrodes near the actual damaged tissue. I’m disappointed almost nobody is following up on Becker’s work clinically
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
With my long-term experience with DMSO (and its remarkable safety profile), I've come to believe applying it transdermally using DMSO would probably be the most effective route for me to go.
Yeah I am also interested in BPC 157. Question is, how to get it to the neck, or if that's even necessary. Problem with transdermal application of BPC 157 is the 500 Dalton rule, which @Hip has firmly beat into my head. Anything above 500 Daltons is probably not going to absorb transdermally. BPC is 900-1600 dalton I believe.

Injecting into the neck is probably risky for an amateur. I wonder if any BPC is absorbed through the gut into the blood stream. I doubt it, due to the size but IDK.
 

valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
That's how my neck feels.

Well, the odd thing for me was that my neck felt fine until after a few PT sessions of traction. I used to have serious problems with neck pain and spasms ever since falling on my neck in Aikido (a few years before ME/CFS onset) and a whiplash injury. I'd often go to work with a ThermaCare neck heating pad stuck on my neck (These are great, they're air activated and stay hot for hours. The downside is I was accused of wearing a sanitary napkin on my neck by a guy who thought he was funny :cautious:)

But in the last several years, my neck has not been a source of pain and it didn't feel tight to me. I've been doing neck stretching exercises (flex in all directions and rotation) before bed every night for years, and thought my neck was now nice and limber. Aside from an episode of radiculopathy in my right arm that resolved 100% after a few epidural steroid injections in 2016, I would have sworn my neck was in good shape, the least of my problems, until all of this!

Now, after several traction sessions, my neck hurts when I look down, my head feels extra heavy, my neck feels weak and is often sore. Plus there's this occasional painful snapping at the base of my skull...
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
After perusing around for neck braces this is the only one I have found that looks to hold the head in the position I want it. Unfortunately its kids only.
613CffwSCqL._SX522_.jpg


I think it would be pretty hard to make something like this but not impossible. The metal needs to be sculpted to be the correct length and bend and this will be pretty difficult to do.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
But in the last several years, my neck has not been a source of pain and it didn't feel tight to me.
Okay, I misunderstood you. When you said
After probably over 20 years of neck tension, my muscles were solidly locked.
I thought you were saying your neck felt incredibly tight. How interesting! That you were asymptomatic, but now that you've started PT, your neck muscles are sore, your head feels heavy, you're having all these symptoms - huh - I'd like to see how you progress with the PT. I just had a quick thought though - I hope the PT is not causing any damage! Can the therapist explain why you are feeling worse now?
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
I’m disappointed almost nobody is following up on Becker’s work clinically

We had another thread a few months back discussing Beck's equipment and treatments, I believe Hip was experimenting with it......this other person felt strongly that they went into remission from these treatments.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Injecting into the neck is probably risky for an amateur. I wonder if any BPC is absorbed through the gut into the blood stream. I doubt it, due to the size but IDK.
I have thought about this both with bpc-157 and with lidocaine and other things I feel like might help. It does seem risky but also doable. Could one technically find enough fatty tissue on the back of the neck to do subcutaneous injections ? Would it be too likely to hit a nerve? Would it go into the muscle? I don’t know. I think it is potentially possible to use an insulin needle to do this safely. They’re not normally used for intramuscular injections but I see no reason why they can’t be. Still... makes me feel sort of on edge to think about doing it
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,301
Location
Ashland, Oregon
symptom improvements I noticed after getting the AtlasPROfilax technique done. I believe most of the improvements occurred as a result of pressure being relieved on my brainstem and cranial nerves.

One thing I've been meaning to mention that I feel is relevant to this discussion, is that @ScottTriGuy made a rather remarkable entry on HIS PROFILE PAGE: -- Under "Most Effective Treatments", he mentions: "Daily laser therapy to my brainstem". I'd never heard of that before, but I feel it connects in with my own experience of having AtlasPROfilax done. I feel it shifted the mechanics in my neck, affecting the brainstem and cranial nerves (which seem almost synonomous to me).

I started another thread (link below) that I feel is relevant to this discussion as well. In it, I focus on certain steps I was taking to stimulate my cranial nerves, particularly the vagus nerve. Since I started that thread, I've discovered some other things that help as well, including doing self-acupuncture, with plenty of focus on inserting three needles along the brainstem area.

This combined with some of the other things I'm doing has given me noticeably more mobility and flexibility in my neck, which I especially notice when I'm driving and turning my head. That flexibility is better now than it's been in many, many years. Here's a link to that thread:

My Search For Tinnitus Relief Led to Discovery Of A Unique Vagus Nerve Stimulation Technique

In a future post, I'll describe a way in which I believe many people can get some of the results of having an Atlas Profilax (AP) procedure by working (gently) on themselves. I only discovered this in the past couple of days.

I posted the above in my initial post, but haven't gotten to it yet. It's a bit involved, and I've added to what worked for me since then. I want the post to be pretty precise, so I need to work on it a bit more. But the gist revolves around the primary objective of AP, which is to massage deeply around the atlas area (particularly along the ridges right behind the ears), to the point where "very tight and restrictive ligaments, tendons, and muscles "release" enough for the atlas to "slide back into its correction position". -- I'll try to get to this soon.
 

SlamDancin

Senior Member
Messages
521
Yeah I am also interested in BPC 157. Question is, how to get it to the neck, or if that's even necessary. Problem with transdermal application of BPC 157 is the 500 Dalton rule, which @Hip has firmly beat into my head. Anything above 500 Daltons is probably not going to absorb transdermally. BPC is 900-1600 dalton I believe.

Injecting into the neck is probably risky for an amateur. I wonder if any BPC is absorbed through the gut into the blood stream. I doubt it, due to the size but IDK.

Idk about the science, but I would think the best bet would be to make a nasal spray out of it and let the brain decide where the body needs to rebuild the collagen the most.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
I think it would be pretty hard to make something like this but not impossible.

Having just wandered over to the Dr. Diana Driscoll theory: involving cerebral spinal fluid buildup issues...which ALSO make sense swirling around these cervical and lower brain stem issues:

Thought it was interesting she is discussing: large heads. My head: I cannot wear any hats that say womens. My head is large. My neck is also short. I've noted that : throat anatomy including the larynx, adams apple, etc, seem to have inadequate SPACE here on my body.

I was watching one of our famous Grammy winning singers the other night: I could not get over how long her neck was, and how far back her head could bend. Geez, thats not happening here. And then during this TV interview, she starts popping her neck. And comments on her neck popping.

(this occured one minute after I sat in my chair contemplating that we need a Hollywood spokes person...the Aids folks got Elizabeth Taylor. I have that thought, and look up and see this famous GAL: pops her neck, and holds her neck.... (how can I directly contact this very famous person). Gee I : want to, we need her desparately. PR needs major: PR.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,301
Location
Ashland, Oregon
I wonder if any BPC is absorbed through the gut into the blood stream. I doubt it

My understanding is that it was presumed for a long time oral ingestion of BPC-157 would work, but likely not nearly as effective as injecting it. That thinking was never proven however, and now seems to be shifting. Apparently many people are getting excellent results from oral ingestion alone.

I will likely experiment with oral ingestion and transdermal application using DMSO. The injection method seems to be rather complex, and seemingly more expensive as well. -- This 7-MIN video gives a brief overview. -- How I do a BPC 157 Reconstitution
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
Idk about the science, but I would think the best bet would be to make a nasal spray out of it and let the brain decide where the body needs to rebuild the collagen the most.
That's an interesting idea. Would it be easy to make. Any possible dangers of getting it into the brain (ie does it usually cross the BBB)?
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,461
Location
Great Lakes
Here is a link to a variety of neck traction devices.

I use a pillow called a pillow pedic like this one. I lay my neck on the pillow while laying on my back with my knees up. Then I straighten my legs so that it creates a gentle tractioning on my neck. The manufacturer actually makes it to work that way.

Unfortunately, it doesn't feel good for me to use it that way. I do love it for sleeping on though because it strongly supports my neck and keeps my head in a straight line with my body. (I'm a side sleeper.) Other similar ones I've tried don't offer the same level of support. We don't travel much or I would buy their travel pillow because I hate to sleep without this pillow.

I also sometimes lay on my back on the floor and put a pool noodle under my neck. That feels really good though I'm not really tractioning; just getting my neck in it's natural curve with the support of the noodle. I'm petite and the diameter of the noodle is kinda small so I don't know if it would work as well on a larger person.

A PT recommended a rolled up towel to do the same thing but it doesn't feel as nice to me but it would be a cheaper option for most people than buying the pillow or the noodle at this point.

Just some ideas.

Also I had Atlas Chiropractic treatment for probably a year or more and his treatments seemed to make my neck muscles around the vertibrae more hypermobile. I should have stopped going to him a lot sooner but they are very good sales people and he had me convinced that no one else could help me.

I've had prolotherapy twice on my neck and jaw which only caused a grown under my skin with no pain relief. It was too expensive and painful a treatment to continue going to him.

I've had 10 sessions of Rolfing which did align my muscles some and helped a bit.

After the Atlas Chiropractic I switched to a traditional chiropractor and have been going to one for years. I do get a lot of relief from pain by going to one.

I also had a year of TMD treatment with a splint and PT on my neck and jaw.

However, unfortunately none of these has helped the ME/CFS much. I do feel a little tiny bit of energy sometimes after going to the Chiro and when I've been experiencing vertigo, his treatment makes it go away right away so I do think the neck issues we have could be part of the package.

I will say though that he is a traditional Chiropractor and is very gentle. Our first traditional chiropractor retired and it was very difficult to find another who did the same techniques. They all seem to have started to use other methods like drop table and actuators which we hate. Those other techniques are just too shocking to the body, at least for us.

I have HHV6 titers but not very high and when Jeff said surgery lowered his titers, I wondered if going to the chiropractor all these years maybe helped my body lower mine. I have no way of knowing though. It's just that going to the chiropractor is the only relief I've gotten from any doctor for any of my symptoms so I don't want to stop but will continue to watch everyone else's progress with the CCI issues.

Edit: Oh, and I have one of the door tractioning devices with the bag that you fill with water. Ouch! Not for me. It seems like I need less tractioning and more of getting my neck to have the natural curves. That's when it seems to feel the best to me.
 
Last edited:

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,461
Location
Great Lakes
I posted the above in my initial post, but haven't gotten to it yet. It's a bit involved, and I've added to what worked for me since then. I want the post to be pretty precise, so I need to work on it a bit more. But the gist revolves around the primary objective of AP, which is to massage deeply around the atlas area (particularly along the ridges right behind the ears), to the point where "very tight and restrictive ligaments, tendons, and muscles "release" enough for the atlas to "slide back into its correction position". -- I'll try to get to this soon.

Looking forward to this when you have a chance.
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
One thing I've been meaning to mention that I feel is relevant to this discussion, is that @ScottTriGuy made a rather remarkable entry on HIS PROFILE PAGE: -- Under "Most Effective Treatments", he mentions: "Daily laser therapy to my brainstem".


Yes, the laser therapy had a profound effect on my symptoms in those first days - I have since discontinued use because I was not improving any further, and when I stopped I did not reverse.

I may have mentioned already that there is a doctor I chatted with who also improved (but not cured) using the same machine. As of a couple of years ago, about half of the 20 or so ME patients that tried it under her supervision had an improved quality of life (but not cured). I'm not sure if the doc continues to use it, or, if like me, once she got the initial benefits, there was no further use.
 

Nico

Senior Member
Messages
104
Location
New York State
@valentinelynx

I developed a neck stretching physio, to relax neck muscle and stretch neck spine. I believe it is much softer than a true traction, but it is already a traction with the power of your head weight only.
you can do it either standing, either sit;

(I found this when I was looking for a way to relieve my ear plugged:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/ear-pressure-plugged-ears-clogged-ears.53423/#post-898499
)

it is a bit like that, but with the body and head BETWEEN THE LEGS (this mean legs apart);

You must relax you neck and let your head weight pull your spine toward the floor)


I often want to do this after I've done my seated tree meditation (Qi Gong).

View attachment 32760


so it is a bit like that, BUT WITH THE ARMS HANGING BETWEEN THE LEGS


View attachment 32761
 

Nico

Senior Member
Messages
104
Location
New York State
SOTA in Canada was approved by Dr. Beck for creating devices that were faithful to his specifications. They're also recommended by The Bob Beck Legacy Association (bobbeck.com). Their Magnetic Pulser is a PEMF (pulsed electromagnetic field device) that is unusually strong and is built to last for over 30 million pulses. The magnetic field can reach up to 9 inches into the body on regular mode (6000 guass/0.6 Tesla), or 7 inches on fast mode (2500 gauss). It's currently $380 USD.

I wonder how this could work with someone like me.... I have EMF hypersensitivity.

What about white laser?
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
I wonder how this could work with someone like me.... I have EMF hypersensitivity

From the FAQ on bobbeck.com:
The micropulsing and magnetic pulsing may be too much for you depending on how electrically sensitive you are.
If you do want to try them, we suggest starting out slowly with one unit, being patient and observing how your body responds step-by-step.