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Active B12 Protocol Basics

anncavan

Senior Member
Messages
107
Location
San Francisco, CA
@pamojja what a journey! Wow! I'm so sorry you had to go through ALL of that, but so happy to hear you've made such strides. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing with me. It makes total sense that other underlying conditions being addressed will help the liver. During this process, while checking my iron, I have also been diagnosed with Anemia of Chronic Disease. This is when your iron levels check normal, but your hemoglobin is low and your TIBC is low. Basically iron is there in the blood but not being absorbed or used properly, and therefore is available to "feed" the infection. The only treatment I've found is "treat the chronic infection." Ha! If it was that easy, I wouldn't be here in the first place ;)

Thanks again! I'll make sure to post here once I've found some productive next steps from a provider. I have an appointment early April that I think could provide some direction.

Take care!
 

Methyl90

Senior Member
Messages
273
When Freddd refers to avoiding glutathione precursors, does he also mean glutamate, cysteine and glycine? how is it possible if we consume protein? Furthermore, whenever I consume fruit such as two oranges I begin to experience strong ocular discomfort with negative neurological symptoms to follow. Could this be a sign of a folate cycle trap? @Freddd
 
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Busson

Senior Member
Messages
102
With nothing to loose, did an life-style and all-out orthomolecular medicine attack - and just let my many out of order lab-markers be monitored by my GP. Whole story retold here: https://www.longecity.org/forum/stacks/stack/111-pad-and-additional-remissions/

@pamojja That's a very impressive list of supplements in your link. Now I know why you're so expert on buying supplements, as discussed in another thread here recently.

I too used to take that number of supplements when I was looking to improve an inherited metabolic disease, such as MELAS, a fatty acid oxidation disorder or organic acidemia. Eventually I found the number of supplements I was taking supplements were overloading me and actually provoking the very symptoms of the illness I was trying to treat! This would happen perversely when I took several a the same time in a bid to feel better for some upcoming event.

It was a benefit-burden balancing act to know if something would work for the better at any given moment. There's a sense of being well enough to take more supplements, if you know what I mean.

Currently I've reverted to taking as few as possible as a sort of washout although I haven't put the bottles away in case I change my mind during a desperate moment!
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,393
Location
Austria
Admitedly I'm a really unique case. I can add more and more (only my bankaccount withdrawal-limit is the limit), and only get better and better. For my financial health and other reasons I wished my supplement-needs would deminish too one day. That's my plan anyway.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
As far as I know a person needs to build the deadlock quartet, in order titrating; sublingual for an hour Methylcobalamin (MeCbl), AdoCbl, methylfolate and l-carnitine. Then there are a few more that can be tried to get cell making and hormone making going.

https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

And it can be a lot more difficult as one has to build the supply lines and increment at a time and then it goes up through more potassium and more methylfolate a lot of times and need to be taking all the trace miners and after a small dose of lithium for building B12 receptors. It took me 5 years to slowly accumulate the TCR-Li in various places with different duties in different places.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
As far as I know a person needs to build the deadlock quartet, in order titrating; sublingual for an hour Methylcobalamin (MeCbl), AdoCbl, methylfolate and l-carnitine. Then there are a few more that can be tried to get cell making and hormone making going.

https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

And it can be a lot more difficult as one has to build the supply lines and increment at a time and then it goes up through more potassium and more methylfolate a lot of times and need to be taking all the trace miners and after a small dose of lithium for building B12 receptors. It took me 5 years to slowly accumulate the TCR-Li in various places with different duties in different places.

Hi @Freddd
Good to see you around again. How are you doing? Do you still manage on only very few small MeCbl injections?
Can you say which AdoCbl you currently use?
I've been searching for Source Naturals sublingual Ado but it's sold out everywhere.
Anabol Naturals is now sold as a solid tablet. Could I crush it and use the powder as a sublingual do you think?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi @Freddd
Good to see you around again. How are you doing? Do you still manage on only very few small MeCbl injections?
Can you say which AdoCbl you currently use?
I've been searching for Source Naturals sublingual Ado but it's sold out everywhere.
Anabol Naturals is now sold as a solid tablet. Could I crush it and use the powder as a sublingual do you think?

I used the Anabol Naturqals capsules sublingual my dumpting it out of the cap. :I like the slow dissolving tablets better but the both worked very well for me. Good luck. Also A slow titration of lithium orotate or tartrate with MeCbl etc can grow Transcobalamin Receptor -Li and establish homeostasis and enable me to do just fine with sublingual MeCbl in quantities and length that shows in urine a couple of hours later. When the TCR-Li grows in the kidneys, it holds the B12 for 24 hours or more if taken weekly. It took me 5 years to grow enough TCR-Li for that. Good luck.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
I used the Anabol Naturqals capsules sublingual my dumpting it out of the cap. :I like the slow dissolving tablets better but the both worked very well for me. Good luck. Also A slow titration of lithium orotate or tartrate with MeCbl etc can grow Transcobalamin Receptor -Li and establish homeostasis and enable me to do just fine with sublingual MeCbl in quantities and length that shows in urine a couple of hours later. When the TCR-Li grows in the kidneys, it holds the B12 for 24 hours or more if taken weekly. It took me 5 years to grow enough TCR-Li for that. Good luck.

Wow, only sublingual MeCbl now - that's some improvement on 10mg x 3 injections daily!

Congrats. It's obviously lasting too, which is fantastic to hear. I'm still titrating Lithium Orotate and continuing to do well.

Yes, the Anabol Naturals used to come in capsules, Fred, but not anymore I'm afraid.
It's a hard tablet now.
Would the exipients etc in the tablet stop it from working sublingually, if I were to crush it, do you think?

Edit:
The thing is when you use the solid tablet by Anabol Naturals as a sublingual, there's barely any effect whatsoever. (Whereas the Source Naturals solid sublingual pill was like rocket fuel!)
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
@Athene* I started using Adenosyl B-12 as a sublingual with Seeking Health’s tablet…a nibble, of course. I always thought it was a good product, though I use the transdermal oil now. This is a link to the US site, which I hope you can use: https://www.seekinghealth.com/products/adeno-b12-60-lozenges
Thanks so much, Kathleen. I did see Seeking Health before and declined it because it's a small dose, but it would be better than nothing and I guess I can take extra, though a bit expensive!
Thanks for reminding me. I was getting a bit worried about not having any.
Hope you're doing well!
 

Methyl90

Senior Member
Messages
273
To date, summarizing the fundamental concepts, what are the correct steps to start the protocol?

It would be very interesting if someone could summarize the fundamental points ... I ask with great interest as I would like to start again without errors. Only a group B multivitamin at RDA dosages nearly sent me to the ER with hellish nightmares ... I think it was B6.

About two months ago I decided (despite not having found a doctor and a diagnosis yet) to resume Fred's protocol with B12 and methylfolate. Aware of the risks but in desperation you always try to do something.

I had surprising initial responses, but over time by changing the various doses between B12 / Folate I started with the old symptoms even more powerful:

Constant hunger most of the day (sign of difficulty creating ATP?)

Totally altered planning and logic, disorientation, difficulty even walking and crossing the street, talking on the phone, formulating ideas and speeches, making decisions, difficulty finding words, loss of all muscle mass, watery fatty edema, acid reflux upon awakening and many other symptoms you can see them in the refeeding symptoms made by Fred in his guide. Of course, depression and mood swings.

Standard exams appear to be regular except for B12 which is out of the Reference Range.

Thanks for any advice
 

Methyl90

Senior Member
Messages
273
Forgot AdenoB12 caused me even the worst insomnia ... regulates circadian rhythms adenosine ... I went to excess but the energy it gave me during the day was fantastic.
 

Methyl90

Senior Member
Messages
273
Why do sublingual tablets sometimes get sticky between the lip and the gum? they practically cannot melt. Is it a matter of low or high salivation? I can't understand it. @Learner1 @Freddd
 
Messages
19
BASIC VITAMINS AND SUPPLEMENTS
Version 1 - 07/23/09
Version 2 - 05/08/11

I have divided up the vitamins and supplements in several categories. When brands are mentioned, they are essential as we have performed effectiveness tests and some brands don't work at all, a few work very well and most are mediocre. We are trying to maximize the probability of healing.

All needed products are available at www.iherb.com at competitive prices about half of local health food store prices and good service. Using the coupon code RED843 will get a person $5 off their first order. This also gives me a $5 credit I use to supply these vitamins to people unable to afford them and further research.

Absolutely critical minimums for basic healing.

Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117?at=0

Enzymatic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Thera...lets/2119?at=0

Solgar Metafolin 800mcg http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-Metafolin-Folic-Acid-800-mcg-100-Tablets/13961?at=0


REVISION - 05/08/11

At this time I can no longer suggest any folic acid or folinic acid containing supplements for people in general. If a person has trialed folic/folinic acid containing supplements and compared it to trial of Metafolin for some months on each with several cycles and found no difference, then the folic acid would appear to not be causing paradoxical folate deficiency. As this is a very real risk for many who need b12 and folate I suggest using Metafolin only. In myself and others, food folate and food extract folate may affect one the same as folic/folinic acid and cause paradoxical folate deficiency. This deficiency reaction causes symptoms that is usually identified as "detox".

CAUTION - THESE TWO SUPPLEMENTS CONTAIN FOLIC ACID

Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Active-B-12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1637?at=0

Jarrow B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-B-Right-100-Capsules/110?at=0

THE FOLLOWING SUPPLEMENTS DO NOT CONTAIN FOLIC ACID

Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness, from 1 per day to 1 per week http://www.iherb.com/Dibencozide-Sub...ets/21571?at=0

B-complexes containing methylfolate or Metafolin instead of folic/folinic acid and methylcobalamin instead of cyanocobalamin

Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin
Pure Encapsulations B-complex plus with Metafolin
retailers vary, may become available at iherb

POTASSIUM -

Potassium is far more critical than I realized with version 1 of this page. Most people starting the active b12s and Metafolin will have low potassium symptoms which can include unusual spasms, muscle weakness, mood and personality changes, nausea, heart palpitations and a long list of other possible symptoms which makes it difficult to identify. Many people misidentify low potassium symptoms as "detox". This is a dangerous mistake to make.

Potassium, your choice of brand and form - this is insurance against hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and potentially fatal - if you have blood tests, potassium is usually checked, mid-range, around 4.5 is good. Some people will have problems at bottom of "normal" range, 3.5-4.2.


Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day, I buy it at Costco, house brand. This kind of product is available in many supermarkets.

Essential, usually needs supplementing
Zinc - 50 mg
Calcium/magnesium supplement
D3 - 3000-5000 IU total

A&D from fish oil, 10,000-(400-800-1000 D) Vitamin A should be 10,000, D might be any of 3 numbers with additional D to be taken
Vitamin E, Gamma complex http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Gamma-E-Complex-Advanced-120-Softgels/299?at=0
Vitamin C 4000+mg/day

Possibly Critical Cofactors, add after initial stages, any number of these in any combination may be required for maximum effectiveness

SAM-e - 200-400mg/day, makes methylb12 more effective, possibly much more effective, increases energy, improves mood

TMG - enhances SAM-e, methylb12, l-carnitine-fumarate

L-carnitine fumarate, works with adenosylb12, lack can completely prevent effectiveness of adenosylb12, increases energy, aerobic endurance, improves mood

Alpha Lipoic Acid - enhances l-carnitine-fumarate and adenosylb12

D-Ribose - enhances adenosylb12, l-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, improves exercise recovery and energy

Additional possibly helpful cofactors

Selenium
Lecithin
Chromium GTF
many other supplements


THINGS TO AVOID

Glutathione and glutathione precursors such as NAC and glutamine, undenatured whey. The glutathione induces immediate active b12 deficiencies, apparently by converting active methylb12 to inactive glutathionylb12 and rapidly excreting it. This then causes the methylfolate to be dumped from the cells in a process called the "methyl trap". This leads to a high serum folate but a low cellular folate causing a severe folate deficiency with increasingly severe symptoms over time. This is often mistakenly called "detox". NAC can produce these same folate and b12 deficiencies also misidentified as "detox".


DEEP NEUROLOGICAL HEALING

The most frequent neurological problems are peripheral neuropathies, often in characteristic stocking-glove distribution. Sublingual methylb12 and adenosylb12 appear quite satisfactory in healing these in a sizable percentage of the time. There exists a class of more severe neurological damage. This is sometimes identified as subacute combined degeneration and takes place in the brain and spinal cord. This can occur in people severely deprived of active b12s by diet or lack of absorbtion by other reasons. Another hypothetical cause may occur in people who for unknown reasons have a depressed Cerebral Spinal Fluid cobalamin level compared to their blood serum levels. In addition there may be mood and personality changes, hallucinations, sensory changes, psychosis and an abundance of neuropsychiatric changes. Some of these changes can be corrected with sublingual active b12s but some require much higher levels of active b12s than are usually achieved with sublingual tablets. In these situations usually only injections will help. Low CSF levels of cobalamin along with elevated CSF-MMA and/or CSF-Hcy is associated with CFS, FMS, ME, Parkinson's, MS, ALzheimer's and a number of other neurological diseases.


B12 INJECTIONS
The usual kinds of b12 injections, cyanocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin, are virtually always ineffective on any schedule. The once a month schedule for cyanob12 and the once each three months schedule for hydroxyb12 is useless as well. Daily sublingual active b12s are far superior to these in every way. These occasional injections were developed as a means to prevent people with pernicious anemia from dying. They do not promote neurological healing in any significant way. In order to promote neurological healing methylb12 injections of larger than usual size and greater than usual frequency must be used. My own experience is given below and corresponds with the ZONES defined on another posting. All injections are subcutaneous as that produces a slower diffusion into the blood maintaining a steadier serum peak. Methylb12 solution must be prepared under a deep red (fast orthochromatic film) safelight. The vials must be wrapped in foil to exclude all light. The syringe must be wrapped in foil preventing all light exposure. A small amount of exposure to room light will cause photolytic breakdown to hydroxycbl-aquacbl often causing acne type lesions and lack of effectiveness.


1. Single or multiple injections per day to 5mg methylb12, each injection. ZONE 2, fully equivalent to sublingual tablets, did not stop continued neurological deterioration and progressive numbing of feet of 15 years duration.
2. Single 7.5mg methylb12 injection per day stopped the progressive numbing of feet of 15 years duration. ZONE 3A1
3. Two 7.5mg methylb12 injections per day caused some small reversal of numbing of feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A1
4. Four 7.5mg methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2
5. Three 10.0mg methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2
6. Two 15.0mg methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2


Regarding options 4,5 and 6 above, which frequency is required for any given person may depend on mb12 solution concentration and individual absorption dynamics.
Read more at http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=289922&posted=1&ktrack=kcplink#post289922



Read more at http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=289922&posted=1&ktrack=kcplink#post289922
Hi there, wrt the NAC/gluthianone issue, would Alpha lipoic acid potentially cause the same problem as it boosts gluthianone levels?
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Hi there, wrt the NAC/gluthianone issue, would Alpha lipoic acid potentially cause the same problem as it boosts gluthianone levels?
I would not follow freddd's protocol, unless you are freddd. He has done very weird genetics, so what works for him is likely not best for you.

Not sure I understand wrt or NAC/glutathione issue. What do you mean?

ALA removes toxins from mitochondria. It also recyclea both water soluble and fat soluble antioxidants.
 
Messages
19
With regard to the issue with NAC boosting gluthianone production, and the gluthianone inactivating b12. I'm inclined to think this might be valid, as my b12 deficiency symptoms got significantly worse after a few days of taking NAC, with nothing else to explain it. I'm wondering whether alpha lipoic acid potentially has similar issues since it also boosts gluthianone production.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
With regard to the issue with NAC boosting gluthianone production, and the gluthianone inactivating b12. I'm inclined to think this might be valid, as my b12 deficiency symptoms got significantly worse after a few days of taking NAC, with nothing else to explain it. I'm wondering whether alpha lipoic acid potentially has similar issues since it also boosts gluthianone production.

I never had any problem with Alpha lipoic acid however I also have a weird metabolism that doesn't have all the pathways and maybe some others. I have found that lithium orotate has changed a lot. In 6 years I have had b12 absorbtion and management in the body, I only need sublingual tablets with 50 mg once a week which gives me about 10 mg absorbed and recirculated for 24 hours or more and then 24 hour or so half life compared to the old 20-50 minutes half life following sublingual or injection. The lithium needs the deadlock quartet and weverything to make cells to grow TCR-Li (transcobalamin receptors-li)
 
Messages
23
I never had any problem with Alpha lipoic acid however I also have a weird metabolism that doesn't have all the pathways and maybe some others. I have found that lithium orotate has changed a lot. In 6 years I have had b12 absorbtion and management in the body, I only need sublingual tablets with 50 mg once a week which gives me about 10 mg absorbed and recirculated for 24 hours or more and then 24 hour or so half life compared to the old 20-50 minutes half life following sublingual or injection. The lithium needs the deadlock quartet and weverything to make cells to grow TCR-Li (transcobalamin receptors-li)

Hi @Freddd , I hope you're doing well!

I have found a company (Raw Revelations) that has a b complex with an adeno/Methyl/hydro b12 blend and I'm liking it (although I have to space it out bc of my slow COMT, i think the methyl is a little intense for me if taken too often, sublingually)

I was curious what the negative long term affects of taking hydro are as you have mentioned, and if I should not use this. Are these negative long term affects from taking hydroB12 alone, or would they the negative long term effects also be generated in taking a methyl/adeno/hydro blend? I was going to look for a hydro/adeno blend because of the slow COMT before seeing your posts in other threads!

Along with slow COMT, I'm Homozygous C677t MTHFR, but most of my levels are fine except cellular folate is low. I did have very high mercury levels that I was detoxing, so Richard's point years back about mercury and methylb12 is also interesting- would love to hear your thoughts here.

Ive seen the recommendation to just take Riboflavin to normalize the MTHFR gene, or BCAAs to help COMT- do you agree with this. Do you think supplementing with SAMe for slow COMT is necessary?

Also what brand are you taking now for sublingual b12 ?

Thanks SO much for the help!!
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
My problem with HyCbl was that it was neither AdoCbl or MeCbl. Instead it is the photo-degenerated MeCbl or AdoCbl. Now with 6 years of growing Transcobalamin-Li perhaps it would strip HyCbl and maybe even CyCbl to cob[ii] by catalytic TCR-Li. In theory it should and does. The way to tell is to get your response of an injection is normally 20-50 minute serum half life when you first take it. With MeCbl and AdoCbl I have a 24 hour re-circulation period of the cob[ii] and then a longer half life. I had such a disaster with glutathione making glutathionylcbl that was excreted all in an hour or two and my age now I don't want to do anything that might damage me. Selenium neutralizes mercury. If a person has symptoms of too much mercury the selenium can actually be felt removing the mercury symptoms in a short while according to a study a couple of years back.

The symptoms from MeCbl are usually lack of sufficient methylfolate, more than 200 of them possible. Then suddenly it will switch to potassium deficiency symptoms and that can be deadly if not handled by taking potassium. I have a paralyzed gut as my first obvious symptom and responses to potassium gluconate dissolved in water in 15-30 minutes. I buy different B12s each time. My body noticed differences. With the lithium TCR-Li have a characteristic pause and keep 10 mg aboard for 24 hours it is obvious if the TCR-Li is stripping the HyCbl and others or not,. I can't tell differences in brand except for how long the tablet lasts these days. The longer it lasts the more B12 absorbed. Whatever made one brand superior was before I grew tcr-lI FOR 5 OR 6 YEARS;.

The very different MeCbl and AdoCbl before now seem totally the same. I take a dose once or twice a week, 50 mg over several hours and none comes out in urine for 24 years or more. The sublingual TCR-Li absorbs 10-50 mcg/minute compared to one's gut that absorbs perhaps 10 mcg in 24 hours. Comparatively so little in an oral complex is absorbed it is basically useless compared to sublingual. Also the TCR-Li has a lot to do with homeostasis for some reason. Some brands seem to never get absorbed and those are the fast dissolving tablets usually. If you don't have enough hormones (testosterone, estrogen)( you might not have enough vitamin D to allow methylation to take place. or only partly. Vitamin D is the end of the downline from those two hormones after going though a bunch more hormones.