Active B12 Protocol Basics

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23
My problem with HyCbl was that it was neither AdoCbl or MeCbl. Instead it is the photo-degenerated MeCbl or AdoCbl. Now with 6 years of growing Transcobalamin-Li perhaps it would strip HyCbl and maybe even CyCbl to cob[ii] by catalytic TCR-Li. In theory it should and does. The way to tell is to get your response of an injection is normally 20-50 minute serum half life when you first take it. With MeCbl and AdoCbl I have a 24 hour re-circulation period of the cob[ii] and then a longer half life. I had such a disaster with glutathione making glutathionylcbl that was excreted all in an hour or two and my age now I don't want to do anything that might damage me. Selenium neutralizes mercury. If a person has symptoms of too much mercury the selenium can actually be felt removing the mercury symptoms in a short while according to a study a couple of years back.

The symptoms from MeCbl are usually lack of sufficient methylfolate, more than 200 of them possible. Then suddenly it will switch to potassium deficiency symptoms and that can be deadly if not handled by taking potassium. I have a paralyzed gut as my first obvious symptom and responses to potassium gluconate dissolved in water in 15-30 minutes. I buy different B12s each time. My body noticed differences. With the lithium TCR-Li have a characteristic pause and keep 10 mg aboard for 24 hours it is obvious if the TCR-Li is stripping the HyCbl and others or not,. I can't tell differences in brand except for how long the tablet lasts these days. The longer it lasts the more B12 absorbed. Whatever made one brand superior was before I grew tcr-lI FOR 5 OR 6 YEARS;.

The very different MeCbl and AdoCbl before now seem totally the same. I take a dose once or twice a week, 50 mg over several hours and none comes out in urine for 24 years or more. The sublingual TCR-Li absorbs 10-50 mcg/minute compared to one's gut that absorbs perhaps 10 mcg in 24 hours. Comparatively so little in an oral complex is absorbed it is basically useless compared to sublingual. Also the TCR-Li has a lot to do with homeostasis for some reason. Some brands seem to never get absorbed and those are the fast dissolving tablets usually. If you don't have enough hormones (testosterone, estrogen)( you might not have enough vitamin D to allow methylation to take place. or only partly. Vitamin D is the end of the downline from those two hormones after going though a bunch more hormones.

@Freddd thank you SO much for the thorough response. I'm so glad you figured out what works for you.

The sublingual supp I took that shot me to the sky had a lot of methylfolate in it as well actually! (but i thought a reasonable balanced number). Maybe it was just because it was my first time taking something sublingually?

Last q on this- when you said your problem with hydro was that it wasnt adoCbl or MeCbl, does that mean that taking a blend of the 3 would be okay long term? I loved this supplement with the blend of 3 after the first day, I think i may just need to spread out dosing. Do you take other bs like riboflavin as well?

Oh and do you think it's really important to watch meat intake/ high protein with slow COMT? I have recently raised my protein intake and am hoping I dont need to change it. Maybe ill try adding more BCAAs like someone suggested.

Thank you, thank you!!
 
Messages
23
Also @Freddd i've been having the paralyzed gut/ potassium issue (and my gut is still not turned back on)- do you think thats just because of a lack of methylfolate? i'm wondering if I should take more folate bc the potassium hasn't worked on its own.

is this something that is related to the slow comt or the mthfr or would happen to anyone with low folate? It's so interesting!

Appreciate the help so much!
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@Freddd thank you SO much for the thorough response. I'm so glad you figured out what works for you.

The sublingual supp I took that shot me to the sky had a lot of methylfolate in it as well actually! (but i thought a reasonable balanced number). Maybe it was just because it was my first time taking something sublingually?

Last q on this- when you said your problem with hydro was that it wasnt adoCbl or MeCbl, does that mean that taking a blend of the 3 would be okay long term? I loved this supplement with the blend of 3 after the first day, I think i may just need to spread out dosing. Do you take other bs like riboflavin as well?

Oh and do you think it's really important to watch meat intake/ high protein with slow COMT? I have recently raised my protein intake and am hoping I dont need to change it. Maybe ill try adding more BCAAs like someone suggested.

Thank you, thank you!!

For decades, HyCbl would cause methyltrap proportionately to HyCbl either as HyCbl or as spoiled AdoCbl/MeCbl which is broken down to HyCbl by light. Those show up as acne like lesions for me. As I have said I am not testing anything now becasue if it goes wrong it is difficult to heal at 74. So I absolutely do not use glutathione, folic acid, NAC, folinic acid, CyCbl or HyCbl;. All of those caused me problems and some still do most likely as several different causes.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Also @Freddd i've been having the paralyzed gut/ potassium issue (and my gut is still not turned back on)- do you think thats just because of a lack of methylfolate? i'm wondering if I should take more folate bc the potassium hasn't worked on its own.

is this something that is related to the slow comt or the mthfr or would happen to anyone with low folate? It's so interesting!

Appreciate the help so much!
A person gets methylation started with MeCbl and methylfolate. You take more methylfolate to cure the folate deficiency symptoms that indicate more methylfolate needed. Then the symptoms change to the potassium deficiency symptoms. If you do not increase your potassium so it comes out right it can kill you. Now as I'm older I have to take about 600 mg of potassium daily and if I stop within 3 or 4 days I have paralyzed gut again and take Reglan (I only need 2.5 mg to get my stomach working again.
 
Messages
23
For decades, HyCbl would cause methyltrap proportionately to HyCbl either as HyCbl or as spoiled AdoCbl/MeCbl which is broken down to HyCbl by light. Those show up as acne like lesions for me. As I have said I am not testing anything now becasue if it goes wrong it is difficult to heal at 74. So I absolutely do not use glutathione, folic acid, NAC, folinic acid, CyCbl or HyCbl;. All of those caused me problems and some still do most likely as several different causes.

Wow i got the acne lesions too from methylb12 many times and figured it was because I blew out my pathyway but didn't now exactly why! Ok thank you @Freddd !
 
Messages
23
A person gets methylation started with MeCbl and methylfolate. You take more methylfolate to cure the folate deficiency symptoms that indicate more methylfolate needed. Then the symptoms change to the potassium deficiency symptoms. If you do not increase your potassium so it comes out right it can kill you. Now as I'm older I have to take about 600 mg of potassium daily and if I stop within 3 or 4 days I have paralyzed gut again and take Reglan (I only need 2.5 mg to get my stomach working again.

This is so fascinating, I would think the potassium would eventually normalize on it's own, but i guess not? Is it because we had an underlying potassium deficiency or just bc our bodies aren't naturally built for this level of methylation? @Freddd you are a godsend, thank you!
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
This is so fascinating, I would think the potassium would eventually normalize on it's own, but i guess not? Is it because we had an underlying potassium deficiency or just bc our bodies aren't naturally built for this level of methylation? @Freddd you are a godsend, thank you!

hen you are in an equilibrium and everything hea;ling at X pace changes when you take more MeCbl and Methylfolate, usually about 80% of the reason of not healing enough. The acne might mor3e reflect unworking folic acid or CyCbl or HyCbl. Lack of methylfolate usually causes lots and lots of symptoms including acne like lesions. I knew one woman who was healing with methylfolate and for coverage purposes was changed to 5 mg daily of folic acid. In a month she had half dollar coin sized lesions all over her body.
 
Messages
23
hen you are in an equilibrium and everything hea;ling at X pace changes when you take more MeCbl and Methylfolate, usually about 80% of the reason of not healing enough. The acne might mor3e reflect unworking folic acid or CyCbl or HyCbl. Lack of methylfolate usually causes lots and lots of symptoms including acne like lesions. I knew one woman who was healing with methylfolate and for coverage purposes was changed to 5 mg daily of folic acid. In a month she had half dollar coin sized lesions all over her body.

Omg thats wild! This week was the first time i ever took hycbl and never took folic acid or cycbl to my knowledge but maybe it slipped in there. I better get on a consistent potassium train. So good to know, thank you.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
Omg thats wild! This week was the first time i ever took hycbl and never took folic acid or cycbl to my knowledge but maybe it slipped in there. I better get on a consistent potassium train. So good to know, thank you.
How much hydroxocobalamin are you taking? Which folate form are you using due to slow comt? I'm the same and methyls mess me up.
 
Messages
23
How much hydroxocobalamin are you taking? Which folate form are you using due to slow comt? I'm the same and methyls mess me up.

TbH I dont know how much is hydro- its a blend of the 3 and Im waiting to hear back on how its split (its a new supp). Im taking folinic acid right now but wondering if I should go back to methyl folate in a smaller dose..
 
Messages
23
hen you are in an equilibrium and everything hea;ling at X pace changes when you take more MeCbl and Methylfolate, usually about 80% of the reason of not healing enough. The acne might mor3e reflect unworking folic acid or CyCbl or HyCbl. Lack of methylfolate usually causes lots and lots of symptoms including acne like lesions. I knew one woman who was healing with methylfolate and for coverage purposes was changed to 5 mg daily of folic acid. In a month she had half dollar coin sized lesions all over her body.

@Freddd im thinking about this some more.. could taking more b12 during a methyl trap situation help balance the folate or would that likely cause more problems? Im starting to come down finally (big time, kind of at a low) from my methyl trap situation and im wondering if I should take a break from the bs or take just b12 or both b12 and folate again but at a smaller dose? thank you!
 
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19
BASIC VITAMINS AND SUPPLEMENTS
Version 1 - 07/23/09
Version 2 - 05/08/11

I have divided up the vitamins and supplements in several categories. When brands are mentioned, they are essential as we have performed effectiveness tests and some brands don't work at all, a few work very well and most are mediocre. We are trying to maximize the probability of healing.

All needed products are available at www.iherb.com at competitive prices about half of local health food store prices and good service. Using the coupon code RED843 will get a person $5 off their first order. This also gives me a $5 credit I use to supply these vitamins to people unable to afford them and further research.

Absolutely critical minimums for basic healing.

Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117?at=0

Enzymatic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Thera...lets/2119?at=0

Solgar Metafolin 800mcg http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-Metafolin-Folic-Acid-800-mcg-100-Tablets/13961?at=0


REVISION - 05/08/11


At this time I can no longer suggest any folic acid or folinic acid containing supplements for people in general. If a person has trialed folic/folinic acid containing supplements and compared it to trial of Metafolin for some months on each with several cycles and found no difference, then the folic acid would appear to not be causing paradoxical folate deficiency. As this is a very real risk for many who need b12 and folate I suggest using Metafolin only. In myself and others, food folate and food extract folate may affect one the same as folic/folinic acid and cause paradoxical folate deficiency. This deficiency reaction causes symptoms that is usually identified as "detox".

CAUTION - THESE TWO SUPPLEMENTS CONTAIN FOLIC ACID

Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Active-B-12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1637?at=0

Jarrow B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-B-Right-100-Capsules/110?at=0

THE FOLLOWING SUPPLEMENTS DO NOT CONTAIN FOLIC ACID

Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness, from 1 per day to 1 per week http://www.iherb.com/Dibencozide-Sub...ets/21571?at=0

B-complexes containing methylfolate or Metafolin instead of folic/folinic acid and methylcobalamin instead of cyanocobalamin

Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin
Pure Encapsulations B-complex plus with Metafolin
retailers vary, may become available at iherb

POTASSIUM
-

Potassium is far more critical than I realized with version 1 of this page. Most people starting the active b12s and Metafolin will have low potassium symptoms which can include unusual spasms, muscle weakness, mood and personality changes, nausea, heart palpitations and a long list of other possible symptoms which makes it difficult to identify. Many people misidentify low potassium symptoms as "detox". This is a dangerous mistake to make.

Potassium, your choice of brand and form - this is insurance against
hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and potentially fatal - if you have blood tests, potassium is usually checked, mid-range, around 4.5 is good. Some people will have problems at bottom of "normal" range, 3.5-4.2.



Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day, I buy it at Costco, house brand. This kind of product is available in many supermarkets.

Essential, usually needs supplementing
Zinc - 50 mg
Calcium/magnesium supplement
D3 - 3000-5000 IU total
A&D from fish oil, 10,000-(400-800-1000 D) Vitamin A should be 10,000, D might be any of 3 numbers with additional D to be taken
Vitamin E, Gamma complex http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Gamma-E-Complex-Advanced-120-Softgels/299?at=0
Vitamin C 4000+mg/day

Possibly Critical Cofactors, add after initial stages, any number of these in any combination may be required for maximum effectiveness

SAM-e - 200-400mg/day, makes methylb12 more effective, possibly much more effective, increases energy, improves mood

TMG - enhances SAM-e, methylb12, l-carnitine-fumarate

L-carnitine fumarate, works with adenosylb12, lack can completely prevent effectiveness of adenosylb12, increases energy, aerobic endurance, improves mood

Alpha Lipoic Acid - enhances l-carnitine-fumarate and adenosylb12

D-Ribose - enhances adenosylb12, l-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, improves exercise recovery and energy

Additional possibly helpful cofactors

Selenium
Lecithin
Chromium GTF
many other supplements

THINGS TO AVOID

Glutathione and glutathione precursors such as NAC and glutamine, undenatured whey. The glutathione induces immediate active b12 deficiencies, apparently by converting active methylb12 to inactive glutathionylb12 and rapidly excreting it. This then causes the methylfolate to be dumped from the cells in a process called the "methyl trap". This leads to a high serum folate but a low cellular folate causing a severe folate deficiency with increasingly severe symptoms over time. This is often mistakenly called "detox". NAC can produce these same folate and b12 deficiencies also misidentified as "detox".


DEEP NEUROLOGICAL HEALING

The most frequent neurological problems are peripheral neuropathies, often in characteristic stocking-glove distribution. Sublingual methylb12 and adenosylb12 appear quite satisfactory in healing these in a sizable percentage of the time. There exists a class of more severe neurological damage. This is sometimes identified as subacute combined degeneration and takes place in the brain and spinal cord. This can occur in people severely deprived of active b12s by diet or lack of absorbtion by other reasons. Another hypothetical cause may occur in people who for unknown reasons have a depressed Cerebral Spinal Fluid cobalamin level compared to their blood serum levels. In addition there may be mood and personality changes, hallucinations, sensory changes, psychosis and an abundance of neuropsychiatric changes. Some of these changes can be corrected with sublingual active b12s but some require much higher levels of active b12s than are usually achieved with sublingual tablets. In these situations usually only injections will help. Low CSF levels of cobalamin along with elevated CSF-MMA and/or CSF-Hcy is associated with CFS, FMS, ME, Parkinson's, MS, ALzheimer's and a number of other neurological diseases.


B12 INJECTIONS
The usual kinds of b12 injections, cyanocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin, are virtually always ineffective on any schedule. The once a month schedule for cyanob12 and the once each three months schedule for hydroxyb12 is useless as well. Daily sublingual active b12s are far superior to these in every way. These occasional injections were developed as a means to prevent people with pernicious anemia from dying. They do not promote neurological healing in any significant way. In order to promote neurological healing methylb12 injections of larger than usual size and greater than usual frequency must be used. My own experience is given below and corresponds with the ZONES defined on another posting. All injections are subcutaneous as that produces a slower diffusion into the blood maintaining a steadier serum peak. Methylb12 solution must be prepared under a deep red (fast orthochromatic film) safelight. The vials must be wrapped in foil to exclude all light. The syringe must be wrapped in foil preventing all light exposure. A small amount of exposure to room light will cause photolytic breakdown to hydroxycbl-aquacbl often causing acne type lesions and lack of effectiveness.


1. Single or multiple injections per day to 5mg methylb12, each injection. ZONE 2, fully equivalent to sublingual tablets, did not stop continued neurological deterioration and progressive numbing of feet of 15 years duration.
2. Single 7.5mg methylb12 injection per day stopped the progressive numbing of feet of 15 years duration. ZONE 3A1
3. Two 7.5mg methylb12 injections per day caused some small reversal of numbing of feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A1
4. Four 7.5mg methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2
5. Three 10.0mg
methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2
6. Two 15.0mg
methylb12 injections per day have caused substantial sustained reversal of numbing in feet and of neuropsychiatric symptoms. ZONE 3A2

Regarding options 4,5 and 6 above, which frequency is required for any given person may depend on mb12 solution concentration and individual absorption dynamics.


Another question re: Glutathione, is milk protein (not whey) a precursor?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
"Another question re: Glutathione, is milk protein (not whey) a precursor?"

For many people who have effectiveness of Active B12 and methylfolate glutathione forms glutathionylcobalamin which is immediately excreted in urine. I started having whole body pain from low B12 in several hours and demyelination of nerves in 2 weeks along with the other 9 people. All 10 of us called it done with the damage, after having lurid red urine as the glutathione flushed all the B12 out of circulation in an hour or two of taking precursors. A researcher I talked to said that glutathione was too dangerous to try it as a nutrient. It was for me and the other 9 in the trial.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
"Another question re: Glutathione, is milk protein (not whey) a precursor?"

For many people who have effectiveness of Active B12 and methylfolate glutathione forms glutathionylcobalamin which is immediately excreted in urine. I started having whole body pain from low B12 in several hours and demyelination of nerves in 2 weeks along with the other 9 people. All 10 of us called it done with the damage, after having lurid red urine as the glutathione flushed all the B12 out of circulation in an hour or two of taking precursors. A researcher I talked to said that glutathione was too dangerous to try it as a nutrient. It was for me and the other 9 in the trial.
Hey @Freddd , have you noticed reflux/regurgitation as part of any of the b12 or folate deficiency or methyl trap?
 
Messages
19
"Another question re: Glutathione, is milk protein (not whey) a precursor?"

For many people who have effectiveness of Active B12 and methylfolate glutathione forms glutathionylcobalamin which is immediately excreted in urine. I started having whole body pain from low B12 in several hours and demyelination of nerves in 2 weeks along with the other 9 people. All 10 of us called it done with the damage, after having lurid red urine as the glutathione flushed all the B12 out of circulation in an hour or two of taking precursors. A researcher I talked to said that glutathione was too dangerous to try it as a nutrient. It was for me and the other 9 in the trial.
Yes I've read about this, I've experienced it too with supplementing NAC. Was just wondering if milk protein (not whey) is also a precursor. Thanks!
 

triffid113

Day of the Square Peg
Messages
859
Location
Michigan
I want to add this study info to the protocol about omega3 to regen myelin sheaths. Here is related info:

This study says copper deficiency causes demyelination and the same symptoms as B12 deficiency: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3691478/

This footnoted article lists many things, including omega3, that increase myelination - like ashwagonda, testosterone, VItamins C & D, pregnenolone, choline, etc. It is also interesting to see its list of the symptoms of low myelination: https://www.optimallivingdynamics.com/blog/25-proven-ways-to-promote-the-regeneration-of-myelin

This one lists copper deficiency as a cause for demyelination:
https://n.neurology.org/content/59/9/1453

This study says copper deficiency has the same symptoms as b12 deficiency (and presents most frequently in the 5th and 6th decades, especially in women [because estrogen helps absorb copper?])

WELL, anyway, I'm suggesting looking into copper deficiency, which must be corrected, to remyelinate.

One thing that might be very important here is taking a digestive enzyme with phytase because the more phytate you eat the less minerals you absorb, including copper and zinc. You can absorb 15% or less! Phytase breaks down phytate. Also zinc and calcium impede copper absorption...calcium by as much as 50% in the same meal / pill!

Just a thread to maybe pursue. I am ordering a digestive pill with phytase myself.
 
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