WARNING - LOW POTASSIUM IS DANGEROUS

[Freddd]

What is a good electrolyte ratio? If I randomly look at i herb electrolyte products, the ratios vary as do the components of the electrolyte product. Should we include all the following and if so, in what general ratio -Calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium chloride.

While increasing our potassium, should we be increasing other minerals also (that is, over and above their already supplemented level)? Or is the increase in potassium supplementation only compensating for a depletion so all others remain constant?

Hi Topaz,

I think that the potassium is largly by itelf on this becasue it is specifcally being rapidly depleted. I've experimented a bit and rhe other others seem unaffected.

 

[topaz]

Topaz, take a look at the recommended daily allowances of potassium, and do a little calculation of how much you're getting in your diet. You might be surprised.

In the US, the RDA is 4700mg. I looked up 4 bananas, and this source (http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/foods-plentiful-potassium) says 1 medium banana has 560mg.

So 2240mg plus 160mg = you feel better today. So that + the potassium in whatever you ate yesterday is likely the amount you need, ATM, for methylation to work.

Madie

EDIT: With some wiggle room if you were very deficient and needed a blast or two to bring up your baseline.

thanks Madie

What I regret is not having my potassium levels tested in the last couple of days before the bananas (which is interesting in itself as I dont normally like bananas but found myself fancying some and secondly, potassium is only available on prescription here - other than useless 35mg supplements!) as that may have shown a change. Before methylation, my serum potassium was mid normal range.

Thank you

 

[Little Bluestem]

Is potassium chloride salt substitute available there? You can make salt water with it. I think foods are a good first source as long as they dont make you fat. The salt water is quick acting if you develop deficiency symptoms.

This pdf file has an extensive list of foods with their potassium content - http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w306.pdf

You can choose other nutrients or the see them in alphabetical order at -
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18list.html

I noticed that quite a few high potassium foods were to be without salt. Sodium interferes with the absorption of potassium. I wonder if the high salt content of the standard American diet predisposes us to potassium deficiency?

It also specified that some foods where to be made with whole milk and/or butter. I wonder if fat/milk fat increases potassium absorption? The trend toward low-fat and fat-free dairy products may not be helping our potassium levels, although it may be helping us in other ways.

One of my favorite entries was: baking chocolate, unsweetened, liquid, 1 oz. - 331 mg. Now I just need to find some recipes that use baking chocolate and stevia.

 

[maddietod]

It also specified that some foods where to be made with whole milk and/or butter. I wonder if fat/milk fat increases potassium absorption? The trend toward low-fat and fat-free dairy products may not be helping our potassium levels, although it may be helping us in other ways.

One of my favorite entries was: baking chocolate, unsweetened, liquid, 1 oz. - 331 mg. Now I just need to find some recipes that use baking chocolate and stevia.

The potassium content of milk varies according to the amount of milk fat (more fat = lower potassium). I guess they have to specify the kind of milk to make the potassium count accurate.

 

[Dreambirdie]

One can of organic coconut water has 690 mg of K. I prefer this to the pills.

 

[Adster]

Is potassium chloride salt substitute available there? You can make salt water with it.

You need to be a bit careful with this, it can make you feel really ill if you take too much on an empty stomach. Really irritates the gut.

 

[topaz]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

Firstly, the 'lift' in mental clarity that I had the day after increasing potassium (via 4 bananas and 160mg potassium) only lasted that one day despite maintaining that level of increased potassium for 4 days. Im back to square one and feeling despondent again.

If you recall I took the bananas as potassium is only available by prescription here in Australia (other than 33mg tablets). I have NO potassium deficiency symptoms other than sudden onset deep depression/sadness so thought Id increase potassium gently to see if that was a weird potassium deficiency. It appears not, although I may have to increase potassium further as 2240mg (per MD's calcualtion) may not be enough.

Today I went to the doctor to get a Px. Although she is supportive of my requests, she was reluctant to write a Px until I had my potassium level tested. Potassium was tested before I commenced methylation and I was fine (mid range). Now given that Ive had about 2240mg/day additional potassium for the past 4 days, but none today, do you think that will that affect my
blood test result? My doctor didnt think it would and she believes that potassium moves slowly and 4 days of 4-6 bananas shouldnt affect my blood test results. I now wish Id had the blood test before I started on the bananans.

What I know is my diet normally provides sufficient potassium, per recent blood results but methylation, if working, should increase my requirement to above that provided dietarily. What worries me is if my issue is not a lack of potassium, then maybe methylation is not working??

Or maybe it is and the depression/deep sadness is a "start up" symptom (as I have seen it listed).

And can I now rely on this blood test result given moderate potassium supplementation over the last 4 days.

I apologise for the convaluted nature of this post.

Thanks

ps a side effect of all this banana consumption is aggravated IBS (increased constipation and stomach/intestine rumbling ... lol!)
pps thanks Little Bluestem for the usda links. I already use those and also posted them on another thread to share.

 

[Little Bluestem]

pps thanks Little Bluestem for the usda links. I already use those and also posted them on another thread to share.

:Sign giggle: I probably got it from your post. Thanks!

 

[L'engle]

If you aren't currently testing a low folate diet, vegetable juice has lots of potassium. Low sodium if you just need potassium, original if you need a more balanced electrolyte. I think electrolyte needs change hugely on these treatments. I used to load sodium, now I load potassium and only need a smaller amount of sodium. That's madness that you have to get a prescription for potassium! Good luck.

I've been really hit by it again the last few days. I should make it clear that the low folate diet I'm trying out is not recommended or suggested by Freddd, it's just something I am trying to see if I can isolate the problem(s) I have.

Also I've been able to exercise more which is creating more need for potassium and potentially for folate. I didn't feel great on my walk right now but I came home and took some potassium, had a cup of cocoa and I almost feel I could go out again. I have to be careful about OI, headrushes though. (Don't worry I always have a cell phone with me when I go for a walk!)

 

[Freddd]

If you aren't currently testing a low folate diet, vegetable juice has lots of potassium. Low sodium if you just need potassium, original if you need a more balanced electrolyte. I think electrolyte needs change hugely on these treatments. I used to load sodium, now I load potassium and only need a smaller amount of sodium. That's madness that you have to get a prescription for potassium! Good luck.

I've been really hit by it again the last few days. I should make it clear that the low folate diet I'm trying out is not recommended or suggested by Freddd, it's just something I am trying to see if I can isolate the problem(s) I have.

Also I've been able to exercise more which is creating more need for potassium and potentially for folate. I didn't feel great on my walk right now but I came home and took some potassium, had a cup of cocoa and I almost feel I could go out again. I have to be careful about OI, headrushes though. (Don't worry I always have a cell phone with me when I go for a walk!)

Hi L'engle,

I don't know any other way than trying some of these things to figure out their effects. Just knowing that a person can have low potassium AND low folate at the same time caused some rethinking on my part. It's this whole business of methylation starting in layers that can cause some confusion too. I'm glad the potassium is starting to work out for you.

 

[L'engle]

Hi L'engle,

I don't know any other way than trying some of these things to figure out their effects. Just knowing that a person can have low potassium AND low folate at the same time caused some rethinking on my part. It's this whole business of methylation starting in layers that can cause some confusion too. I'm glad the potassium is starting to wpork out for you.

Thanks Freddd. I did better on the second round of exercise than the first, and took more potassium at the end of the workout. I've ordered several bottles of metafolin, so I can try things out more. I'm interested in seeing if there's a connection between the increased brain fog after exercise and increased folate need.

 

[rydra_wong]

Freddd, you know that methylfolate increases BH4, right? And there are a few studiesout there about large dose BH4 helping against diabetes. Just wondered if you think your effects are due to BH4 or methylation...what you know about biopterin.

Rydra (low BH4)

 

[rydra_wong]

Also, I find this which I find interesting: http://web.fc.uaem.mx:8080/publicaciones/2010 J Nutrigenet Nutrigeno.pdf

It says that biotin deficiency regulates which path glucose is to be burned in - the pyruvate path which is energy deficient (produces only 2 ATPs and results in elevated lactate), vs. the Kreb cycle (produces 38 or so ATP and no lactate)
Rydra

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, you know that methylfolate increases BH4, right? And there are a few studiesout there about large dose BH4 helping against diabetes. Just wondered if you think your effects are due to BH4 or methylation...what you know about biopterin.

Rydra (low BH4)

Hi Rydra,

Would you be more specific please. Which effects do you mean? I've had so many of them.

what you know about biopterin

Just a little that I have read, not very much. There is a lot that is unclear. Of course what I am reading is unclear, with a lot of hedged statements and tentative assumptions. That doesn't mean that decisively written statements about these things are any more correct, just trying to appear as if they really known. That is why I have worked backwards from effects on symptoms as a whole. There were all sorts of things that made all sorts of research based opinion want to say "no way (whey?)". Either I was making a very elaborate lie or I have figured out something that wasn't obvious. Not one of my many docs solved the problem, largely becasue of the research. Almost every one worth a plugged nickle immediately recognized b12 deficiency from the symptoms right off the top. It was only after seeing test results and taking a history did they decide that "it can't possibly be b12 deficiency". Why "because i was taking AMPLE b12, the theraputic oral dose of 1,000mcg of cyanocbl daily and folic acid". Based on 50 years of cyanocbl research they all "knew" a lot of things that just were not so. Every one of them who recognized b12 deficiency were fully correct. Their failure was trusting their own eyes and brain in favor of faulty research and "official" stances.

 

[rydra_wong]

Freddd, I am not talking about your methyl cycle supplementation improvements, nor your mB12 improvements. I am talking about the extra improvements you are getting with deplin-sized doses of mfolate. I have had diunral problems with ataxia since in my 40's (not all the time...seemed to be during PMS, and in fact estrogen raises BH4 - several studies prove it). I have tested low dopamine and low serotonin on two tests and took one test of CoQ10 which was low despite supplementation with ubiquinone (checked my source though and I only find that Life Extension says that BH4 is required to make ubiquinol - they cited no reference and Expasy doesn't know about it - which does not mean there isn't a study). Tyrosine raised neural perfusion for me just like choline, mfolate, and / or omega-3 does. Not sure why. It skips the need for 1 BH4 (phenylalanine) but still needs 1 to make L-DOPA. I haven't tried fava beans yet...kinda scared to just in case.

My doctor seems to think the reason for large doses of mfolate like Deplin is to raise BH4.

I am trying to glean any scraps of info I can.
Ryrda

 

[drex13]

I just pulled out some lab results from bloodwork that I had done just about a year ago. My potassium level at that time was a measely 3.7. (Range is 3.5 to 5.2). Shortly after this is when I first tried Mb12, and hit the wall hard on day 4. And have everytime I have tried it since. Apparently, I have found the reason (or one of the reasons) why. It would appear that I am starting from a point of borderline low potassium and have none to give when methylation starts. I would be curious to see what my potassium level is now. Probably same or maybe lower, I'm guessing. Looks like a little bloodwork might be on the agenda next week.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, I am not talking about your methyl cycle supplementation improvements, nor your mB12 improvements. I am talking about the extra improvements you are getting with deplin-sized doses of mfolate. I have had diunral problems with ataxia since in my 40's (not all the time...seemed to be during PMS, and in fact estrogen raises BH4 - several studies prove it). I have tested low dopamine and low serotonin on two tests and took one test of CoQ10 which was low despite supplementation with ubiquinone (checked my source though and I only find that Life Extension says that BH4 is required to make ubiquinol - they cited no reference and Expasy doesn't know about it - which does not mean there isn't a study). Tyrosine raised neural perfusion for me just like choline, mfolate, and / or omega-3 does. Not sure why. It skips the need for 1 BH4 (phenylalanine) but still needs 1 to make L-DOPA. I haven't tried fava beans yet...kinda scared to just in case.

My doctor seems to think the reason for large doses of mfolate like Deplin is to raise BH4.

I am trying to glean any scraps of info I can.
Ryrda

Hi Rydra,

When the paradaoxical folate deficiency the quality of sleep changed immediately, normal dreaming started up for the first time in decades.

The severity of deficiency in the paradoxical folate deficiency was very minor compared to the glutathione induced folate deficiency which was very much more severe. One of the key differences was widespread inflammation pain responsive to NSAIDS; joint pain, muscles pain, just pain all over started forming within hours. Hyper-responsiveness was starting. Allergies were coming back, asthma was coming back. MCS was coming back. This is in addition to the cheilitis, IBS, acne and other cell reproduction failures that were always around.

Hope that helps.

 

[rydra_wong]

Hi Rydra,

When the paradaoxical folate deficiency the quality of sleep changed immediately, normal dreaming started up for the first time in decades.

The severity of deficiency in the paradoxical folate deficiency was very minor compared to the glutathione induced folate deficiency which was very much more severe. One of the key differences was widespread inflammation pain responsive to NSAIDS; joint pain, muscles pain, just pain all over started forming within hours. Hyper-responsiveness was starting. Allergies were coming back, asthma was coming back. MCS was coming back. This is in addition to the cheilitis, IBS, acne and other cell reproduction failures that were always around.

Hope that helps.

Oh. Well idk that there are studies showing any of these symptoms relating to BH4 deficiency. I only know BH4 deficiency can relate to urine formation issues, neurotransmitter levels, possibly CoQ10 (thus energy levels), and glutamate toxicity. Oh, PKU also. Your symptoms sound substantially different...prob. not BH4 being the primary issue - could be a bit of overlap but...

Rydra

 

[rydra_wong]

I wanted to share some stuff by Charles Weber on potassium. He wrote a very interesting book on it available here: http://charles_w.tripod.com/arthritis8.html

He quotes for instance this study as to type of potassium suplementation:
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/55/3/681
The study also showed that potassium chloride reduced 24-hour urinary albumin and albumin:creatinine ratio, and potassium bicarbonate decreased 24-hour urinary calcium, calcium:creatinine ratio, and plasma C-terminal cross-linking telopeptide of type 1 collagen significantly. These results demonstrated that an increase in potassium intake had beneficial effects on the cardiovascular system, and potassium bicarbonate may improve bone health.

 

[rydra_wong]

Charles Weber also says there is a connection between potassium and B1 status to be careful of!

He says:

Insufficient potassium and vitamin B-1 (thiamin) can not damage the heart significantly when both are deficient. This has very important implications when supplementing each during heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis.

INTRODUCTION

Cardiovascular disease remains as the #1 cause of mortality. About 50% of heart failure patients will perish in 5-years. At age 40, life time risk of developing heart failure is 1 in 5.Diastolic dysfunction heart failure prevalence has increased to 50% of all heart failure. Most of the heart disease in western societies is probably either caused by or is greatly enhanced by a potassium deficiency. Potassium has been used in heart disease therapy since 1930 [1]. Potassium enriched table salt almost halved the mortality from cardiovascular disease of retired men studied in China over a 31 month period [2]. Permanent damage can be inflicted on the heart and kidneys of animals by potassium restriction [3].

However it is possible for a dangerous imbalance with respect to thiamine (vitamin B-1) can arise from potassium supplements if animal experiments are an indication. If potassium supplements are given during the wet heart disease of beri beri (vitamin B-1 deficiency), the heart disease is made much worse [4][5]. Wet heart disease of beri-beri is impossible if potassium is also deficient [6]. Instead a muscular atrophy similar to that from vitamin E deficiency appears [7][8]. Hove and Herndon suspect that muscular dystrophy is a potassium deficiency since body potassium is low during muscular dystrophy [7]. During a vitamin B-1 deficiency the heart loses potassium [4]. This may be why heart damage in beriberi resembles that in a potassium deficiency. The chemistry of vitamin B-1 in the body is extremely complicated and determining its status by chemical tests is very difficult (this article shows the chemistry in great detail)[36 Wooley]. One symptom of a vitamin B-1 deficiency is lactic acid acidosis [9]. Why the heart should be protected by a deficiency of both potassium and vitamin B-1 is strange, and I know no explanation for it.

Some of the symptoms of heart disease are shortness of breath, swelling of the legs and ankles and occasionally the abdomen, fatigue and weakness, loss of appetite and nausea, reduced urination, and persistent cough which sometimes produces mucus or blood tinged sputum.

---
He says also:
It is obvious that if potassium supplements are given, it is very important that the vitamin B-1 intake must be adequate at the same time, and one third of heart disease patients are deficient in thiamin [34].


He later says that many things can destroy B1, including blueberries, tannins in tea, and sulfites. He also says "A folate deficiency prevents thiamin absorption in rats." ( Howard L Wagner C Schenker S 1974 Malabsorption of Thiamin in Folate-deficient Rats, J. Nutr.)