WARNING - LOW POTASSIUM IS DANGEROUS

[ahmo]

Can I take K sublingually, @ahmo ?

I don't know. For me, the amount I needed would have been very hard sublingual. But, most of the time I took mine in footbaths. I'd been doing bicarb FBs for awhile, then added the K (K+) as well as aminos. this worked well for me, easier than drinking so much.

And could a big copper dose explain my symptoms?

I don't know. What's IR dr? internist? Good luck.

 

[salam]

I have a number of files listing which herbs affect which genes and then one only had to research the drug used to find out how it clears to determine if there will be that sort of problem. Other problems are things like if the herb thins the blood, prevents clotting, causes bleeding (COX-2 inhibitors), increases or decreases absorption. There are many ways supplements can interact with drugs.

Is it possible to get a copy of those files? I was looking for relation between Fenugreek and MAO without success. Maybe such relation is listed in mentioned files.

 

[xinamatusx]

When a person gets methylation going, even only partially, the single most dangerous side effect is dropping potassium. In the absence of kidney damage which people usually know about and certain drugs that cause the potassium to accumulate, low potassium is the odds on favorite after staerting methylation. As methylation starts up, no ifs ands or buts typically, in a day or less with the active protocol, when those symptoms hit on the 3rd day typically or a little later, it's virtually always potassium. This can get dangerous, how quickly is the only question. I have had enough disturbing communications in the past couple of weeks to issue this repeating the warnings.

From Pubmed -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001510/
Hypokalemia

Potassium - low; Low blood potassium

Last reviewed: May 29, 2011.


Hypokalemia is a lower-than-normal amount of potassium in the blood.


Causes, incidence, and risk factors

Potassium is needed for cells, especially nerve and muscle cells, to function properly. You get potassium through food. The kidneys remove excess potassium in the urine to keep a proper balance of the mineral in the body.

Hypokalemia is a metabolic disorder that occurs when the level of potassium in the blood drops too low.

Possible causes of hypokalemia include:
Antibiotics (penicillin, nafcillin, carbenicillin, gentamicin, amphotericin B, foscarnet)

Diarrhea (including the use of too many laxatives, which can cause diarrhea)

Diseases that affect the kidneys' ability to retain potassium (Liddle syndrome, Cushing syndrome, hyperaldosteronism, Bartter syndrome, Fanconi syndrome)

Diuretic medications, which can cause excess urination

Eating disorders (such as bulimia)

Eating large amounts of licorice or using products such as herbal teas and chewing tobaccos that contain licorice made with glycyrrhetinic acid (this substance is no longer used in licorice made in the United States)

Magnesium deficiency

Sweating

Vomiting



Symptoms

A small drop in potassium usually doesn't cause symptoms. However, a big drop in the level can be life threatening.
Symptoms of hypokalemia include:
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), especially in people with heart disease

Constipation

Fatigue

Muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis)

Muscle weakness or spasms

Paralysis (which can include the lungs)



Signs and tests

Your health care provider will take a sample of your blood to check potassium levels.

Other tests might include:
Arterial blood gas

Basic or comprehensive metabolic panel

Electrocardiogram (ECG)

Blood tests to check glucose, magnesium, calcium, sodium, phosphorous, thyroxine, and aldosterone levels



Treatment

Mild hypokalemia can be treated by taking potassium supplements by mouth. Persons with more severe cases may need to get potassium through a vein (intravenously).

If you need to use diuretics, your doctor may switch you to a form that keeps potassium in the body (such as triamterene, amiloride, or spironolactone).

One type of hypokalemia that causes paralysis occurs when there is too much thyroid hormone in the blood (thyrotoxic periodic paralysis). Treatment lowers the thyroid hormone level, and raises the potassium level in the blood.


Expectations (prognosis)

Taking potassium supplements can usually correct the problem. In severe cases, without proper treatment a severe drop in potassium levels can lead to serious heart rhythm problems that can be fatal.


Complications

In severe cases, patients can develop paralysis that can be life threatening. Hypokalemia also can lead to dangerous irregular heartbeat. Over time, lack of potassium can lead to kidney damage (hypokalemic nephropathy).

@Freddd I think this comment likely saved my life. I have randomly been experiencing episodes of extreme weakness along with numbness in my arms and an inability to life them. I went to the ER where they saw I had low potassium, gave me some pills, and sent me on my way. A few days later the episodes were happening again. I then saw your comment and put two and two together. I had thyroid cancer last year and now I am high doses of thyroid hormone to keep the cancer suppressed. I looked up thyrotoxic periodic paralysis and the symptoms sound exactly like what I experienced. Going to talk to my doctor about lowering my prescription to see if it helps.

 

[Hip]

@Freddd I think this comment likely saved my life. I have randomly been experiencing episodes of extreme weakness along with numbness in my arms and an inability to life them.

Are you taking any vitamin B12 injections or other high-dose B12 products?

This can cause transient low potassium which can on occasion be life-threatening.

When I take the Australian B12 transdermal oils (which provide doses comparable to B12 injections), if I don't take around 500 mg of potassium with it, I will get hit with a wave of powerful tiredness a few hours after administering the B12, which is due to the transient low potassium triggered by B12.

 

[xinamatusx]

Are you taking any vitamin B12 injections or other high-dose B12 products?

This can cause transient low potassium which can on occasion be life-threatening.

When I take the Australian B12 transdermal oils (which provide doses comparable to B12 injections), if I don't take around 500 mg of potassium with it, I will get hit with a wave of powerful tiredness a few hours after administering the B12, which is due to the transient low potassium triggered by B12.

No. I was taking 1000mcg of b12 about 2 months ago but stopped.

 

[Busson]

Are you taking any vitamin B12 injections or other high-dose B12 products?

This can cause transient low potassium which can on occasion be life-threatening.

When I take the Australian B12 transdermal oils (which provide doses comparable to B12 injections), if I don't take around 500 mg of potassium with it, I will get hit with a wave of powerful tiredness a few hours after administering the B12, which is due to the transient low potassium triggered by B12.

@Hip Low potassium with methylB12 is a startup effect (according to those who attribute it to "refeeding syndrome" as the body gets back to normal). However after years of taking B12 I find it still occurs.

Others suggest low potassium is due to methylB12 causing raised adrenalin which causes aldosterone to be dumped and this lowers potassium.

 

[Hip]

@Hip Low potassium with methylB12 is a startup effect (according to those who attribute it to "refeeding syndrome" as the body gets back to normal). However after years of taking B12 I find it still occurs.

If you have a look at the first post in this thread, it gives the official medical explanation of why high doses of B12 can cause a sudden drop in potassium, which I will paste here:

(1) Sometimes around 2 hours after applying the B12 oil, I would get hit with a wave of increased tiredness and increased brain fog that would last for around 4 hours before clearing up. I think this may be due to a transient hypokalemia (low blood potassium), which high doses of B12 are known to sometimes cause.

But I found that if I take around 400 mg or so of oral potassium at the same time as applying the B12 oil, this prevents the wave of tiredness (you get around 400 mg of potassium in a banana). I contacted Greg about this, and he thinks the hypokalemia arises from B12's effect on aldosterone, a hormone which controls the blood sodium/potassium balance.

However, drugs.com says the hypokalemia is due to increased red blood cell requirements during hematopoiesis. This is also the explanation @Freddd gives.

This transient hypokalemia (low potassium) due to high dose B12 on rare occasions has caused death, according to drugs.com. So an oral potassium supplement taken at the same time as the B12 is advisable.

 

[Learner1]

If you have a look at the first post in this thread, it gives the official medical explanation of why high doses of B12 can cause a sudden drop in potassium, which I will paste here:

Only if you're short of potassium. Too much potassium can be dangerous, too.

 

[Hip]

Only if you're short of potassium.

If you are short of potassium (have hypokalemia), I would think that's when high dose B12 may actual cause a fatal episode of worsened hypokalemia.

But even for people with normal blood levels of potassium like me, high doses of B12 (from an injection or from Greg's B12 oils) cause a wave of tiredness and increased brain fog that hits about 1 or 2 hours after administering the B12.

But by co-administering about 300 or 400 mg of potassium with my B12 (that about the amount of potassium you get in a banana), I find this wave of tiredness is prevented.


This is what it says on the drugs.com drug interactions page:

Major Interaction

Cyanocobalamin/hydroxocobalamin (vit B12) — Hypokalemia

Major Potential Hazard, High plausibility.

Hypokalemia (resulting in death) has occurred during vitamin B12 therapy as a result of increased red blood cell requirements during hematopoiesis. Clinical monitoring and correction of potassium levels prior to and during vitamin B12 therapy is necessary.

 

[Learner1]

I've taken huge doses of methyl and/or adenosyl cobalamin over 10 years and never had a potassium problem - it's always midrange. Not saying you or anyone else doesn't, but it's important to know what ones electrolyte status is as too much or too little can be very dangerous.

 

[Hip]

I've taken huge doses of methyl and/or adenosyl cobalamin over 10 years and never had a potassium problem

Have you taken B12 by injection, or by Greg's B12 oils (the oils provide higher systemic doses than most injections)?

The doses of B12 you get from supplements are much lower.


Greg's B12 oils provide an estimated 2000 mcg dose of B12 into your bloodstream (he says around 80% of the 2500 mcg of B12 rubbed on the skin is absorbed). Whereas the typical B12 injection provides around 500 mcg. So you can see that the oils are considerably stronger than the injections.

I get this transient hypokalemia and tiredness from a dose of Greg's B12 oils.

 

[Freddd]

So for instance I take B12, more cells get made, potassium is needed. Take more methylfolate, more cells made and more potassium is needed. Take some testosterone and more cells get made, guess what, more potassium is needed. Potassium is needed for all cells getting made. I find that a "supply line" analogy works best becasue it doesn't waste decades arguing about what is "deficient". Instead if enough of it isn't available when needed for the cell and the tissue isn't getting the potassium into serum fast enough as needed one gets serum hypokalemia symptoms. It can be caused by timing between eating and absorbing potassium. If one doesn't gget enough potassium then the tissue potassium gets low. If your fighting a disease potassium is used by the bacteria and our immune system also uses potassium and that cam cause a "refeeding syndrome" style lack of potassium and other things each limited by the "usual supply line" quantity. I got some more potential stability of potassium after 5 years of taking micro nutrient lithium. However, one still has to take enough that can be smoothed out to rate needed. Some bodies don't do that well.

It happens for all sorts of reasons for different people. The one thing is it can't be ignored. It and other lacks of nutrients when needed can cause damage and possibly death. Good luck.

 

[Methyl90]

The key should be to measure the intracellular potassium level through urine and not serum. Even I, despite huge doses of B12 and methylfolate, have never needed extra potassium (based on the symptoms described by Fred, I have never had muscle spasms or cramps). I once took potassium gluconate powder and besides causing severe stomach pain it caused low potassium symptoms, but if I take the whole capsule it probably doesn't happen because it slowly dissolves. Probably the only tolerated form is the citrate one. I don't think MB12 increases adrenaline, but the opposite. Fatigue could be caused because dopamine and serotonin are lowered by the methyl donor. @Learner1 @Freddd

 

[Learner1]

I take huge doses of methylfolate and methyl B12 and have never needed potassium either. Some people are fine, but others with different genetics or other comorbidities may need it.

I haven't found MB12 to increase adrenaline either. I think the reason that neurotransmitters get low in many people is high peroxynitrites and/or low BH4, tetrahydrobiopterin.

 

[Freddd]

I take huge doses of methylfolate and methyl B12 and have never needed potassium either. Some people are fine, but others with different genetics or other comorbidities may need it.

I haven't found MB12 to increase adrenaline either. I think the reason that neurotransmitters get low in many people is high peroxynitrites and/or low BH4, tetrahydrobiopterin.

Insulin is involved in getting potassium into tissue from serum. Potassium staysw in serum only a short time. If for unknown reasons a person can have plenty of potassium but can't get it out of tissue to serum from whence it is used to make cells. This is why I prefer "bottlenecks" rather than deficiency is more accurate. Occasionally a bottleneck can be caused by deficiency but often it is another reason. I got better, not great, better, potassium distribution as I titrated lithium micronutrient quantities by potassium became more stable at distribution.. Also lack of copper can mess up distribution of many of the metals. Things are neither as simple as they sometimes seemand rarely as complicated as some people try. Tried in the wrong order, whatever it is, is not effective and unsolvable for many. I went to research for what comes next. I have worked on this for more than 45,000 hours since 1978. For instance huge dose of MeCbl and Methylfolate are worthless without l-carnitine, AdoCbl, and possibly another doezen secondary nutrients to get cell making to a rate that it needs more than you normally eat. Around 3000-4000 mg of potassium is needed daily. A reasonable diet has that. Some people have problems distributing it or never get to the point of making cells enoyugh to require a few hundred mgs of K additionally daily.