Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Kathevans]

@Athene* First of all, let me say it's good to hear your voice, At this point, I'm not sure I would recognize progress if it bit me in the face. Another horrible night of not being able to sleep--the extra potassium in the day seemed to do nothing to stop the need at night, though as I've said before, it may also have been nothing more than what you call adrenal stress...or too much adrenaline. I read of someone else on CureZone having these same symptoms, the drifting into sleep comfortably shortly after you climb into bed and then waking with a shock and just not being able to go back to sleep. The occasional drift, but no sound sleep. For a long time I felt wired, tense, lost interest in the book I'm reading. Finally I resorted to a nibble of Ambien, but it wasn't enough to knock me out...I'm actually uncomfortable with it.

So I'm mulling your words:

It seems that I'm low in molybdenum though and it's knocking me back (adrenal stress) when I take it, so I'm only now taking 1/4 of your dose

What are your symptoms of being ' knocked back'? I think I over did the molybdenum yesterday. At times it feels as if it sops up the adrenaline,as Greg says. At other times, it feels as if it causes some sort of detox, which I know is possible. I've been having more esophogeal spasms, as well as occasional rectal. Strange and uncomfortable. The night before last, after the 2a.m. Potassium, I slept a good six hours, just up and down to pee. I felt more than reasonable. But yesterday I took 3/4 of the Solgar Molybdenum, 37.5 mcg each time, morning, afternoon and with dinner, and the results are above.

It's funny, but as much as Greg asks if I have any questions, he doesn't answer some of the basic symptomology ones, like, How long have you seen it take for people to become replete and at what doses?' I suppose the answer to that question is as varied as we are, and I am expecting the unanswerable!

I'm going to lower the molybdenum today myself... But it's hard walking that line between tamping down the adrenaline and over-stimulating the rest of your body or I don't know what... Isn't it awful to have to think to yourself, 'Gee, it makes me feel awful, it must be just what I need!' Well, I know this isn't always the case.

As to magnesium, I know I first started taking it even before the onset of some of my cardiac issues, and I started with the BodyBio drops and titrated up a drop every few days till I reached whatever the bottle said was the daily dose. Each time I raised it a drop, I'd notice it would affect my sleep favorably, not unlike many things, actually. Then I switched over to a powdered Mag citrate that I'd put in water with lemon juice and a quarter teaspoon of Celtic Sea Salt. All good. I've done this At least three years. And it is what made it hard to replace with the potassium yesterday (in fact I may just return to this...) I learned a lot from a woman named Bee Wilder's web site called Healing Naturally. As to the Epsom Salts baths, I've probably taken those 4-5 times a week for an equal amount of time, although for a couple of years I alternated them with what a doc I saw in NYC called detox baths- a 32 oz bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide, a cup of Kosher salt (though I suppose any kind would do), and a box of Baking soda, so your skin doesn't get too dried out. In my current Epsom Salts baths I use two heaping cups of the salts to a full tub of water and soak for 20 minutes. I also add in some Aura Cascia Chamomile or Lavender Bubblle bath...it seems to be relatively safe toxically speaking (it's for babies!)..a good rating...and it smells so good.

I think I posted my recent RBC Magnesium levels and they were right in the mid-range. I'll check the number later as I'm still in bed and still hoping for a bit more sleep...

As to vitaminD levels, I don't know what mine are currently. Last yearntheynwere off the charts low, so I currently take 2,000 whatevers of a liposomal spray by NOW that I like. Again,though, I began with drops and titrated up from 100!

Maybe this is reminding me once again that I've been pushing the molybdenum too fast, and like you, less is more...

It is frustrating to have to examine the tiniest of tea leaves to figure out what our bodies want... Not to mention exhausting. I just bought a daily pill container for a week too take on the trip, but my husband and son were making fun of me, saying only old ladies used them. I'm just trying not to bring every supplement bottle I have on vacation...

As always, thanks for the update. It helps me put some of my @x!* into perspective! And many thanks for the message. I'll respond soon...

 

[Athene*]

Too exhausted to reply properly @Kathevans but just to say the 'knock back' from molybdenum is the same as when I was low on cortisol. It was easily addressed with hydrocortisone but I'm doing my best to stay off it. Symptoms are as you describe: low aldosterone (low thyroid function as well as low cortisol can affect aldo and I can't get thyroid hormone into cells with low cortisol) so frequent peeing, sweats, profound fatigue. It's not quite so bad when I reduce molybdenum and rest up (not able to exercise yet though which is getting worrying). Minerals can be hard on adrenals when they're flat-lined though they're good for adrenals when in the earlier stages of adrenal fatigue. I wish I had remembered this before I started with the moly, magnesium etc...

 

[Kathevans]

Me, too @Athene* It's nearly 5 a.m and I'm up tending to my potassium needs. I cut back on the molybdenum yesterday, though only to 75mcg, I'd gotten in 1500mg of potassium through the day, but that wasn't enough. My heart was doing the irregular thing after a short 45 minute sleep spirt. Given the inability to go back to sleep confuses the issue for me. I used potassium first because I respond to it so faithfully. But when it didn't do the job, I decided it was adrenaline issues and turned to a bit more of the titrated molybdenum--12.5 mcg. It didn't help, so I went back to potassium, and have dosed twice more. At a certain point, I get wired and can't go to sleep, and that's where I am now.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm already holding back on he B12, with about 3,000 mcg yesterday. Without it, I had a terrible headache and pins and needles and tightness in my face. In fact, that level is seemingly nowhere near enough as the symptoms are still there, if not quite horrible.

You're right about us coming at this from both sides. I was tired yesterday, but in a good mood on about 4 hours of sleep. After dinner when it was cooler than the 90 degrees we'd had all day, I went for a walk and felt good and happy. I must be hyped by adrenaline...

That initial sleep lulled me into a very brief, but joyful complacency...but that's wiped out now. Strange though because as I've said, my cortisol was flat through the day. It may be that as much of a struggle as the minerals are, my adrenals are better able to tolerate them. My thyroid function has been ok, so perhaps.

For both of us, I want that gentle walk back to center where balance exists, and most of all, better sleep. (I'm also thinking that if my potassium need is this high, I may be able to tolerate more b12 without any additional. Who knows.) Back to squeezing in higher K+ during the day. The last 24 hour total has been about 2400mg.

 

[Athene*]

I came across this @Kathevans You may not be in the same stage of adrenal insufficiency as me, but I think this is why I can't tolerate magnesium very well. If you scroll down you'll see that magnesium reduces sodium and that magnesium can even be elevated in adrenal insufficiency. Like I say, your adrenals may not be as flat lined as mine, but wouldn't it be curious to see what would happen at night if you skipped the Espom salt bath for a few days? I know from reading the Morely Robbins FB group that some people's electrolytes go completely (even dangerously) haywire after Espsom bath...
http://www.adrenaladvice.com/magnes...utm_expid=67395174-5.mzTJ10C8TkCsraQfmbnQpA.2

 

[Athene*]

For both of us, I want that gentle walk back to center where balance exists, and most of all, better sleep

Sounds like heaven! 4.35am here...

 

[Kathevans]

Interesting piece on magnesium. At this point, I don't know which end is up, though I look back to my recent RBC magnesium which was mid-range. Just trying to respond to the potassium need and figure out the molybdenum. What was it you've lowered yours to? I'm thinking perhaps not to take it in the evening.

Why is it that taking more potassium during the day doesn't seem to carry over into the night? I just feel that I'm taking it so often--at this point, at night it's every two hours.

Just fretting and exhausted. And 12:24 here.

 

[alicec]

I don't want to derail the conversations of others but I thought you might be interested to know that I think I have finally cracked my huge need for methyl folate and it has worked just exactly as Greg has said.

I have had reasonable success with Freddd's protocol, rocky at times, but when it is working it has made a great difference to how I feel.

From the beginning I have had a huge need for methylfolate, sometimes almost insatiable. I have always thought this meant I had some metabolic blockage or inefficiency but have never been able to find anything that helps reduce it.

Some of Greg's ideas about this reflecting poor recycling of folate via MTHFR, which in turn reflects poor activation by B2, did resonate with me and I have been puzzling for some time about what I need to do to get B2 actually working and put Greg's ideas to the test.

I have been taking riboflavin and/or R5P daily in decent doses for some years so the problem must lie in the processing steps.

Of the various things Greg mentioned as places things could go wrong I identified two that could well apply to me.

First my thyroid is a bit dodgy, something I have as yet been unable to satisfactorily address. I therefore decided that I would change to sublingual R5P in the hope that I could achieve better levels of this intermediate form. Even though the dose was smaller I noticed this felt much more potent, - a good sign I thought - so I slowly built up the dose to 25 mg 3x daily.

I thought some mineral imbalance, probably molybdenum could be limiting conversion to FAD. I had taken a trace mineral preparation for years, plus additional selenium and lots of magnesium. I was also taking high doses of zinc to balance a copper problem - and more recently high doses of boron and moderate doses of calcium, both of which I seem to have depleted from likely refeeding syndrome.

I had some molybdenum and manganese in the cupboard (1mg and 10 mg caps respectively) so just decided to add them both (too impatient to try one at a time).

I had noted Greg's claim about urine becoming green if you are making enough FAD and after several weeks of these additions I began to notice a greenish colour from time to time. About a week ago it was distinctly green and at about the same time I began to feel drugged. Something was very unbalanced.

I began to wonder if this might be too much methyl folate - had that time finally come?

I took the plunge and dropped from 30 mg to an arbitrary 5 mg in a couple of days and feel so much better.

If I had done this in the past I would have been aching all over and lying in bed feeling very sick and very sorry for myself.

I imagine I'll need to make further adjustments, but in any case Greg's general model and reasoning does indeed seem to work.

I am delighted. I have been trying to crack this for a couple of years.

 

[Kathevans]

@alicec I think we're thrilled to have a fresh voice here! It's the middle of the night here in Boston, so for the moment I'll make my comment quick. 1 mg of molybdenum?! That's 1,000mcg?! Well, both @Athene* and I have had problems with far, far smaller amounts. I have a fluttering heart tonight from an addition of 25 mcg to the 75 mcg I took earlier in the day. But, I will say that initially, and I am assuming this was before my adrenals began to release too much adrenaline and other precursors, I was tolerating the molybdenum better.

Right now this is a mystery to me...wrapped in an enigma.

But @alicec if his is working for you, I'm thrilled. I want to know what and how Greg's protocol is working... Great!

 

[Athene*]

I don't want to derail the conversations of others but I thought you might be interested to know that I think I have finally cracked my huge need for methyl folate and it has worked just exactly as Greg has said.

I have had reasonable success with Freddd's protocol, rocky at times, but when it is working it has made a great difference to how I feel.

From the beginning I have had a huge need for methylfolate, sometimes almost insatiable. I have always thought this meant I had some metabolic blockage or inefficiency but have never been able to find anything that helps reduce it.

Some of Greg's ideas about this reflecting poor recycling of folate via MTHFR, which in turn reflects poor activation by B2, did resonate with me and I have been puzzling for some time about what I need to do to get B2 actually working and put Greg's ideas to the test.

I have been taking riboflavin and/or R5P daily in decent doses for some years so the problem must lie in the processing steps.

Of the various things Greg mentioned as places things could go wrong I identified two that could well apply to me.

First my thyroid is a bit dodgy, something I have as yet been unable to satisfactorily address. I therefore decided that I would change to sublingual R5P in the hope that I could achieve better levels of this intermediate form. Even though the dose was smaller I noticed this felt much more potent, - a good sign I thought - so I slowly built up the dose to 25 mg 3x daily.

I thought some mineral imbalance, probably molybdenum could be limiting conversion to FAD. I had taken a trace mineral preparation for years, plus additional selenium and lots of magnesium. I was also taking high doses of zinc to balance a copper problem - and more recently high doses of boron and moderate doses of calcium, both of which I seem to have depleted from likely refeeding syndrome.

I had some molybdenum and manganese in the cupboard (1mg and 10 mg caps respectively) so just decided to add them both (too impatient to try one at a time).

I had noted Greg's claim about urine becoming green if you are making enough FAD and after several weeks of these additions I began to notice a greenish colour from time to time. About a week ago it was distinctly green and at about the same time I began to feel drugged. Something was very unbalanced.

I began to wonder if this might be too much methyl folate - had that time finally come?

I took the plunge and dropped from 30 mg to an arbitrary 5 mg in a couple of days and feel so much better.

If I had done this in the past I would have been aching all over and lying in bed feeling very sick and very sorry for myself.

I imagine I'll need to make further adjustments, but in any case Greg's general model and reasoning does indeed seem to work.

I am delighted. I have been trying to crack this for a couple of years.

Excellent news @alicec and many thanks for sharing it here. It's just the kind of contribution we need as some of us are really puzzled at being stalled even when following Greg's recommendations. I believe he's right in his theory, and he has been extremely helpful to me and endlessly patient with my multiple issues, but my damn thyroid refuses to play along (still very low t3 no matter what form of thyroid med & supplements I take). The molybdenum seems very hard on the adrenals for now (only able to take 1/4 of 150mcg tablet).

I have just yesterday upped my folate to 30mg in desperation. But now I will pay more attention to my minerals, as you have. I would give anything to be able to drop to 5mg folate. Others have had success with r5p but Greg was adamant it's 'clipped' back to normal b6 in the gut. (*edit, meant to say 'normal b2') I'll give it a shot now - thanks for tip on sublingual form. (@Kathevans Is this what you use still?)

Very glad to hear of your improvement. Long may it last. I have very similar issues and attempts to address thyroid etc so this gives me hope.

Did you have any adrenal insufficiency along the way?

 

[Athene*]

@Kathevans Just to answer your question - I'm now on 37.5mg Molybdenum (1/4 of 150mcg Solgar chelated) and will gradually increase. I take magnesium too, but by mouth, 3 or 4 daily of Doctor's Best chelated magnesium glycinate 200mg caps. Apparently the body can regulate oral magnesium better because too much makes you get diarrhoea so there's a natural limit on what you can take. With the transdermal method it can be a hell of a lot and can disrupt electrolytes massively especially with weak adrenals, so for me, the oral form is better for now. Your adrenals could be in better shape than mine! But I do remember you saying they were once flat lined. Food for thought (as if we need more!)...

 

[alicec]

1 mg of molybdenum?!

That's what was in the capsules I had so I just took one (I'm not nearly as sensitive to supplements as I once used to be).

After several weeks on 1/day, I suspect it may be too much. I do have a bit of hyping up and sleep disturbance which is probably too much adrenaline.

I'm going to reduce the dose but maybe a big dose in the first instance has been important. Certainly with other minerals I had apparently depleted I needed to take very large doses for several days before adding more made no difference - like filling a near bottomless well. Then I stepped back on the dose.

Others have had success with r5p but Greg was adamant it's 'clipped' back to normal b6 in the gut.

Normally that is the case though it's not quite so simple. I haven't searched for studies on R5P but I have looked for stuff on P5P. I imagine the situation is similar.

There are a couple of small studies that show that some P5P is taken up directly, probably by endocytosis. We don't really know how much variability there is in this mechanism but it is conceivable that some people may do more of it than others and these people might benefit from the active vitamins.

This mechanism might be important in people such as us who have many metabolic inefficiencies. There might be problems either with the action of the phosphatase which clips off the phosphate group to enable the vitamin to get into the cell, or with the kinase which adds the phosphate back inside the cell. Getting even a small amount of active vitamin directly could make a difference if these steps are inefficient.

At various times I have tried riboflavin, R5P, pyridoxine and P5P (all swallowed) and at least at times I thought I noticed a difference in response. OAT tests showed that my functional B6 deficiencies had disappeared so I assumed this form of supplementing was working ok.

I have noticed that the B2 marker has been creeping up, however - high normal - despite large doses of B2 and/or R5P, so when reconsidering where things might go wrong in making FAD, I decided to rethink B2 supplements. Maybe sublingual forms of the active vitamins might be a better way of boosting my B2 levels and eliminate the possibility that multiple things could be going wrong in the various steps necessary to get to R5P.

I did notice an instant difference - far more potent - so I think it is worth giving these forms a try.

 

[CCC]

@Athene* - thank you so much for posting here. It's so encouraging.

We too have been on the b12 oils and B2.

Like everyone else here, we're looking for the next thing to bump things along. I'd already ordered manganese and we have molybdenum already.

Edit: oops - that should have been @alicec . Sorry.

 

[Athene*]

Maybe sublingual forms of the active vitamins might be a better way of boosting my B2 levels and eliminate the possibility that multiple things could be going wrong in the various steps necessary to get to R5P.

Can you say which brand you use @alicec? I found a Source Naturals sublingual r5p but it has sorbitol and mannitol which apparently are not good for the gut and I have possible gut bacteria issues (FUT2). There's Douglas Labs and Thorne r5p, but they're not not sublingual - can those caps be emptied under the tongue?

 

[alicec]

Can you say which brand you use

Unfortunately it is the Source Naturals brand. Part of the reason I didn't try this earlier was the additives. However in this instance I thought I should try for a while to see if it made any difference. It seems to.

I think it's worth trying the non-sublingual capsules - maybe by emptying between bottom lip and lower gum. I have used this technique with the old Anabols Naturals adoB12 caps. There is slower dissolution than under the tongue.

Once I feel more stable I think I'll try this - I really dislike the taste of the SLs and don't want to ingest the additives indefinitely, but feel it's too early to make another change.

I don't use the SL lozenges under the tongue for the same reason - put them between cheek and upper gum.

 

[Athene*]

Unfortunately it is the Source Naturals brand. Part of the reason I didn't try this earlier was the additives. However in this instance I thought I should try for a while to see if it made any difference. It seems to.

I think it's worth trying the non-sublingual capsules - maybe by emptying between bottom lip and lower gum. I have used this technique with the old Anabols Naturals adoB12 caps. There is slower dissolution than under the tongue.

Once I feel more stable I think I'll try this - I really dislike the taste of the SLs and don't want to ingest the additives indefinitely, but feel it's too early to make another change.

I don't use the SL lozenges under the tongue for the same reason - put them between cheek and upper gum.

Thanks for that @alicec Appreciate it

 

[junkcrap50]

Off topic, but I don't know where else to ask a few B12oil questions. I'm looking to buying it to give it a try, but would like to know:

1) Can you squirt a partial amount of oil to give a 1/4 or 1/2 pump dose?

-- I know it's not exact, but I would like to start small since I can't handle much more than 1mg methyl B12.
​

2) Does anyone know the concentration of B12 in the methyl and adenosyl products? How about the

-- I know many people have said that it doesn't matter since it's long, slow, constant release of B12. Thus it's different. But I can't seem to tolerate much B12. Also, I would like my dad to try it and he's up to 40mg sublingual mb12 and ab12 on the FP. He's leaning towards injected mb12 right now wanting to get higher dosages.​

3) How does the adenosyl/methyl combo product compare to the individual products? Does anyone know the ratio or concentration of each in the combo product?

-- It seems like most people on the FP would only need to buy the combo.​

4) Has anyone tried the B-Complex product? How has that compared to taking a B-complex orally?

-- I seem to need a lot of B support. I take a very good complex, with large doses of active Bs. And still require extra B1, B2, and B3 individually and take them sublingually.​

5) Does Greg give free consults to everyone who orders or just customers who ask?

Thanks

 

[alicec]

Can you squirt a partial amount of oil to give a 1/4 or 1/2 pump dose?

The pump is quite stiff and needs a good push to depress, so it might be difficult to do a partial depression (though I have never tried). You might need to waste some of the dose at least initially until you satisfied yourself about your sensitivity.

It might be possible to save the partial dose for another time as long as you put it into a light-proof container.

Does anyone know the concentration of B12 in the methyl and adenosyl products

1.8 mg ado, 0.7 mg meB12 in the combined product; 0.75 mg meB12 in the methyl product.

About 80% is absorbed. Absorption from a sublingual is maybe around 10%.

I have tried both products but put the ado/me back into a drawer for later. I am going through a phase of sensitivity to ado and found it too potent (though I have used it successfully in the past). For now I am using the methyl product and SL ado.

Haven't tried the B complex, don't know about consults.

 

[Athene*]

@junkcrap50 I tried the B Group oil for a couple of weeks but didn't get on well with it. I think it was the Niacin in it. It seemed to stress my adrenals. Ended up feeling fluey and tired. Took a couple of weeks to get back to where I was before using it. I might try it again at a later stage when I'm more able for it. For now I use an oral B- Complex, plus some separate Bs.
Also Greg advises that there's not enough B2 in the B Group, so you would need to take B2 separately, preferably in 2 or 3 doses across the day. It has enough of the other Bs.
At the beginning I used a dropper (you can buy them in any pharmacy here) and kept it wrapped in foil, just in case. That way I was able to use a small bit at a time and keep the rest for later.
G says the ratio of Ado to Meb12 is the same as what the human body makes. It took me ages to get used to the Ado part of the mix and I had already been using sublingual Ado 8mg, daily. I'm ok with it now.
G doesn't do a 'formal' consultation as such, but he will answer questions if you ask him.

 

[junkcrap50]

Ok, great! Thanks @alicec and @Athene! This all helps a bunch! I'm rerally looking forward to trying it.

 

[CCC]

Manganese arrived today. The taste test suggests we need it.

Apparently, it didn't quite taste like a lolly, but it wasn't yukky at all.

Thanks to all who have reported progress on the B12 oil and suggested manganese as a possible missing factor.