Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Athene*]

Hi @Kathevans Molybdenum arrived today, so we'll see...

The ATP/cortisol question you asked - well, I've these disordered circadian rhythms for years, long before I had any b12 treatment. I think it's all got worse again because I've recently come off hydrocortisone and so I'm not absorbing thyroid hormone properly because of the swinging cortisol levels, and because of that I'm not making FAD consistently, because as we all know we need t4 and t3, as well as selenium, iodine, molybdenum, b2.

Even with all these things in place, if cortisol is too high or too low, then t4 just won't convert enough to t3. I'm at my wits' end with this damn thyroid to tell you the truth. I have tried every combination of thyroid hormone in existence, both synthetic and natural. I even tried no thyroid hormone and became severely hypothyroid within a few weeks.

Adrenals are wrecked from years of b12 deficiency. I'll just have to wait for them to (hopefully) kick in again properly.

Thanks for the heads up re biotin being used up by pantetheine. I was ok for biotin on the OAT, but I have been using high dose pantetheine lately, so that's worth looking at again.

Cheers for mentioning molybdenum effects too. Interestingly, I took one as soon as it arrived and twenty minutes later had to lie down for a nap. Overcome with sudden fatigue. Same happened when I began b2 - then got used to it. 'Curious'. lol

Yep, we should keep an eye on Ron Davis, though I imagine if he's addressing Krebs cycle etc we're already taking necessary co factors as advised by Greg (interesting to see how it matches with @Freddd's work too)...

Talk soon

 

[Athene*]

Have just listened to this recent bbc radio4 documentary on growing our gut inhabitants It's an entertaining listen as well as informative. (And I've just realised there's an artificial sweetener in my gluten-free chocolate treat...)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ff0hl

 

[junkcrap50]

I did take my first drop of the adenosyl/methyl B-12 oils yesterday. I decided with all those high Bs, I might not be short of the B2 and so just went ahead... The good news is that it alleviated that awful tight feeling in my face for much of the day, though I had a return of the frontal/between the eyes headaches last night and this morning. And my sleep last night was not nearly as good as the 7 hours or so I was often getting with the molybdenum alone.

I haven't really been following the whole thread or conversation, so forgive me if my ideas are out of place. But, Kathevans, have you tried playing around with taking benfotiamine for B1 or NADH for B3 (or NAD+) to see if either helps your frontal headaches?

I know B2 is a much used cofactor, but I found that Benfotiamine helped me tremendously for my headaches while doing the FP. And I've just recently added NADH to increase NAD+, as that too is a very important and common cofactor, though on the ATP side. Adding the NADH helped eliminate my headaches when they returned despite still being on the benfotiamine. I first tried B2 before the B1 and NADH, but the FMN didn't do anything for me. Now that I've been on B1 and NADH, B2, however, does help when I infrequently get headaches.

Just an idea and a thought for you to consider.

 

[Kathevans]

@junkcrap50 Thank you for this. It's a good reminder of what happens when you stop taking a b-complex! I was taking a reasonable amount of niacin --50-100mg/day--a few weeks ago and then forgot about it as I began to focus on mineral levels, particularly the molybdenum. I've got some genetic hobbling in areas where NADH is a cofactor and I need to remember. I found this bit of clarification on the internet:

"NADH is the reduced form of NAD+. Similar to NAD+, NADH also participates in metabolic processes when reduction is necessary. When NADH reduces a compound, it gets oxidized to NAD+. The alternating oxidation and reduction of these two compounds is observable in many metabolic pathways such as citric acid cycle. In diet, NADH is rich in animal proteins. Therefore, vegetarians may sometimes have to take NADH supplements. NADH is a cofactor of the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme. It helps protect liver from alcohol damage. NADH also lowers cholesterol and blood pressure. NADH has also found to enhance immunity and improve memory. However, its main biological role is to act as a coenzyme."

In the spate of recent B bloodwork I had, my Vitamin B1 Levels were: 41 nmol/L in a Standard Range of 8 - 30 nmol/L. So for the moment, these seem ok. My Vitamin B2 RESULT IS >400.0 NMOL/L in a range of 6.2 - 39.0 nmol/L. Off the charts!

Confusing, right? Even my B6 (on about 10mg/day) was high and you'd think the B2 would help use it up. I hadn't been taking high doses of anything but the B2, so go figure. I must have some other co-factor deficiency--or something that is a complete mystery to me.

 

[Kathevans]

Interestingly, I took one as soon as it arrived and twenty minutes later had to lie down for a nap. Overcome with sudden fatigue.

My question for the moment is how much is 'one'?! I've been taking titrated drops, that is, a single drop of 25 mcg in 1/4 cup, then, going from there to 1 tablespoon = 6.25mcg, etc. Yesterday I took about 4mcg during the day and have vowed not to do that again. Evenings only. Even at night the feeling it gives me is heavy-chested, slowed breathing exhaustion. Hmmmm. Still waiting on those *@x!**# results. I spent twenty minutes on hold to the doctor's office just now and have given up for the moment.

Good grief.

(Where did this expression come from, anyway? Why is grief good?! --and the answer I found: Usage notes: often used humorously, when someone pretends that a situation is more serious than it really is. Well, ok, but the overall situation is serious, right? Our lives are dribbling away as we spend more time than we'd like trying to find solutions that might ease our being held hostage by our challenged bodies.)

 

[Athene*]

Dribbling away, indeed, @Kathevans - Appreciate the etymology

Feels like the life blood is being drained out of me with all this damned interminable medical focus. It's so deadening to the spirit. We really need to get on with life soon and I fervently hope we can. I'm just glad I found Greg - his help has been invaluable and I believe will shorten this tedious journey to health.

My molybdenum is Solgar chelated, 150mcg. I took one pill. Today it had no effect whatsoever, maybe because I had a good night's sleep last night, whereas yesterday's dose was after three days of about four hours sleep. So it may have been simply sleep deprivation that caused yesterday's effect.

You seem to be a lot more sensitive to it. Or is my chelated brand easier to take? I've no idea...

 

[Mary]

Adrenals are wrecked from years of b12 deficiency. I'll just have to wait for them to (hopefully) kick in again properly.

Many years my chiropractor, who found my weak adrenals through muscle testing (I was weak as a kitten and my regular doctor didn't have a clue), gave me an adrenal glandular called Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process. It was a lifesaver. I had to take 3 or 4 times the recommended dose because my adrenals were so weak, but within a couple of days my energy started to come back. The chiro told me that taking something like hyrdorcortisone would stress the adrenals, pushing them to work even harder, whereas the adrenal glandular allowed the adrenals to take a break and start to heal.

You might try one of the glandulars - there's several good ones I've used: the Drenatrophin, Drenamin PMG (also by Standard Process, Cytozyme AD by Biotics and Adrenogen by Megagenics. I've had to take glandulars off and on pretty much ever since but am on a very low dose now.

I'm jumping in in the middle of this discussion so if you've talked about any of this before, sorry! But I was wondering if you'd had the Adrenal Stress Index Test done. I had one done 12 years ago and my cortisol was very high in the middle of the night, causing severe insomnia which nothing could touch. I started taking Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) and it worked like magic. It was trial and error to get the right dose. I worked up to something like 8 capsules a day (I don't recommend anyone starting with this dose!), found it worked much much better when taken in the morning, took in divided doses on an empty stomach and started sleeping better almost immediately. I've taken Seriphos off and on ever since, but only take one a day now. After a couple of months when I first took it, I found I was getting extra tired and realized my cortisol was going too low, and cut my dose, and eventually tapered down to where I am now.

I do take desiccated thyroid (NP thyroid) and have taken equivalent products for probably 17 years I guess. My thyroid numbers are good, though my body temp still runs low and I still have PEM - it doesn't do anything for that.

So the adrenal glandular plus extra pantothenic acid - pantothenic acid is VERY important for the adrenals - seem to have got my adrenals functioning pretty well. Once in awhile if I have severe stress for some reason, I can feel it and have to up my dose of Drenamin, but day to day I'm pretty good. I also meditate daily and avoid stress as much as possible. The meditation is invaluable.

 

[Kathevans]

Thanks for this addition to our chat here, @Mary. I have an adrenal test under my desk, just waiting till I have a good enough night! And also to have enough saliva in the morning (from not taking so much potassium at night and therefore, enough molybdenum to lower my adrenaline which causes the potassium dumping). Of course all this doctoring of myself is probably just what I shouldn't be doing if I want a true reading of my adrenals. Hmmm.

The test is the Adrenocortex Stress Profile: Salivary Hormone Test Kit by Genova Diagnostics. Other people here, @ahmo, I believe, have taken adrenal glandulars. I know nothing about them, really, so thanks for the education.

 

[Athene*]

Many years my chiropractor, who found my weak adrenals through muscle testing (I was weak as a kitten and my regular doctor didn't have a clue), gave me an adrenal glandular called Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process. It was a lifesaver. I had to take 3 or 4 times the recommended dose because my adrenals were so weak, but within a couple of days my energy started to come back. The chiro told me that taking something like hyrdorcortisone would stress the adrenals, pushing them to work even harder, whereas the adrenal glandular allowed the adrenals to take a break and start to heal.

You might try one of the glandulars - there's several good ones I've used: the Drenatrophin, Drenamin PMG (also by Standard Process, Cytozyme AD by Biotics and Adrenogen by Megagenics. I've had to take glandulars off and on pretty much ever since but am on a very low dose now.

I'm jumping in in the middle of this discussion so if you've talked about any of this before, sorry! But I was wondering if you'd had the Adrenal Stress Index Test done. I had one done 12 years ago and my cortisol was very high in the middle of the night, causing severe insomnia which nothing could touch. I started taking Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) and it worked like magic. It was trial and error to get the right dose. I worked up to something like 8 capsules a day (I don't recommend anyone starting with this dose!), found it worked much much better when taken in the morning, took in divided doses on an empty stomach and started sleeping better almost immediately. I've taken Seriphos off and on ever since, but only take one a day now. After a couple of months when I first took it, I found I was getting extra tired and realized my cortisol was going too low, and cut my dose, and eventually tapered down to where I am now.

I do take desiccated thyroid (NP thyroid) and have taken equivalent products for probably 17 years I guess. My thyroid numbers are good, though my body temp still runs low and I still have PEM - it doesn't do anything for that.

So the adrenal glandular plus extra pantothenic acid - pantothenic acid is VERY important for the adrenals - seem to have got my adrenals functioning pretty well. Once in awhile if I have severe stress for some reason, I can feel it and have to up my dose of Drenamin, but day to day I'm pretty good. I also meditate daily and avoid stress as much as possible. The meditation is invaluable.

Hi @Mary Very good of you to comment on this and many thanks for such helpful information. I had reverse t3 on the dessicated, so for now I'm on t3.

It's funny you mention the Seriphos - I've just been looking at my PEMT ++ result on my genome and I know it doesn't necessarily mean a lack of function, but still, I wondered. The thing is Greg of b12oils mentioned, when I asked him what its function was, that PEMT is involved in methylation of phosphatidyl ethanolamine to make phosphatidyl serine (an essential brain lipid). I've been hearing good things about Seriphos over the years, but was always afraid to use it in case it lowered cortisol too much. So now, given your dosage experience, I might be braver, and give it a try at small dose, and if it helps with night time high cortisol that would be fantastic

I did try this glandular once (it has no adrenalin, just the adrenal cortex part). I used it for about five days, but my heart beat just got stronger and faster until it was quite frightening - as if it my heart was coming out of my chest. I have no cardiac issues (all checked out) and it felt like it was raising my cortisol far too much. I was having drenching sweats while this was happening. Then it all crashed and I felt extremely weak and achy. Looking back on it, I wonder if I was taking too much (one three times daily). And also, I hadn't yet fully weaned off hydrocortisone. I had attempted to wean and was at about 10mg daily and feeling dreadful, so that's why I tried the adrenal cortex. I subsequently dropped the glandular and went back up to 20mg hydrocortisone. It's a pity. A smaller dose of the glandular might have been better. I well certainly keep it in mind, but the b12oils and b2 seem to be helping again the last few days, as long as I don't over do things.

I really must look into meditation. Do you go somewhere, like a class, or did you learn it on your own?

I am planning to do an Adrenal Stress Index next. As soon as I can afford it. I did have my cortisol taken a couple of times when in hospital for tests, during the day and night. But that was serum which includes both bound and unbound cortisol as you probably know. I had a 24 hour urine collection done too, but again not as revealing of the highs and lows of the stress index. I was told everything was 'normal' but my endo agreed to a small dose hydrocortisone (10mg) to help convert my t4 to t3 which my body was refusing to do even with good iron levels. It was me who increased the dose out of desperation. I was extremely weak, like you. It helped me to get up and about for a good while, but then there were too many swings from low to much too high. I'm currently off all hydrocortisone.

I will try the Seriphos if the poor sleep continues (I do get the occasional good night, but that's all). I seem to remember coming across a post on an adrenal site about the ingredients being changed. I'll check now.

Yes - here's the link to the new one. Some people are complaining on amazon.com that it's not the same anymore. Does it look ok to you, Mary? I have no idea.
http://www.interplexus.com/seriphos/

 

[Athene*]

@Mary I forgot to ask! Please can you say what PEM is? Is it post exertional malaise?

 

[Mary]

Hi @Athene* - I do think the Adrenal Stress Index test would provide you some very valuable information. Too bad it's not covered by insurance!

I don't know what to say about your experience with the adrenal glandular. Yes it might have been too high a dose or combined with the hydrocortisone, was too much. I don't know, but I'm glad the B12 and B2 oils are helping you! I recently switched from sublingual B12 to Blue Bonnet liquid methylcobalamin, and I can feel a difference - wish I had switched before! Actually I was thinking of making my own transdermal B12 with the Blue Bonnet product as someone described on the board, have not done that yet, but am doing okay on 3 doses a day.

I just looked at the ingredients in Standard Process Drenamin and compared to Thorne Adrenal Cortex - I think they're quite different products so you might do better on the Drenamin - but I can't really advise you what to do here, if anything.

Re meditation: I started meditating after reading The Relaxation Response by Herbert Benson, a cardiologist. It was first published in 1975 but is still available. It's a fast interesting read, and he gives a very simple technique for meditation: (1) sit quietly in a comfortable position (2) close your eyes (3) Deeply relax all your muscles beginning at your feet and progressing up to your face; (4) breathe through your nose. Become aware of your breathing. As you breathe out, say the word "one" silently to yourself. Breathe normally. (5) continue for 10 to 20 minutes. When you finish, sit quietly for several minutes, at first with your eyes closed and later with your eyes opened. (6) Don't worry if you do it "right". There is no right or wrong here. Your thoughts will keep intruding and when they do, just notice them and let them go. When I first started meditating, I think it took about 2 weeks before I was able to quiet my mind even a little bit. I think of it like going to the gym. You don't expect results from one day or even a week of exercising but I think many people give up on meditation almost right away when their mind doesn't quiet the way they think it should.

There are many different forms of meditation, tons of info on-line, see what works for you.

I just looked at the "new" Seriphos - it's NOT the same as the product I've been using for so long - dang! I don't know what to tell you here. I don't have the severe insomnia any more so don't know if the new formulation will be as effective. It looks like it may not be. This is sad! One reviewer said he is now recommending Swanson's 300 mg. phosphatidyl serine but that it is rather expensive.

Yes, PEM is post-exertional malaise -

 

[Mary]

@Athene* - one more thing - you might try something like this for your adrenals and cortisol levels: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Super-Cortisol-Support-90-Veggie-Caps/5022
One of the ingredients is magnolia bark which can help regulate cortisol levels.

Here's a similar product with fewer ingredients: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Relora-300-mg-120-Vcaps/3340

 

[Athene*]

Cheers, @Mary It's good to get tips for adrenal support. It's my main challenge right now and I really must test adrenal function soon. Thanks for the reminder The post-exertional malaise ('malaise' is rather an understatement for me. Post-exertional collapse, more like) is another challenge. I'm amazed I'm even semi-functional without hydrocortisone 20mg (sometimes it was 25mg), but being impatient (and having, like so many here, a restricted life for a long time) I'd really like to move things on.

Some days I can manage exertion or a walk and just need to sit down for a while afterwards before I recover. Other days not so good. Today I woke up full of energy and while it's not the most exciting activity in the world I was pleased to tackle a stack of ironing, so there I was after breakfast, ironing while listening to the radio, with the sun coming in the window, and thinking I might even get out for a walk after this...maybe I'll clean up the place later on, or tackle that report I have to do...Then - well, you can guess. After an hour and a half, the limbs became weak, then profound weakness set in, followed by sweats alternating with chills. I had to sit around all day after that (intensely frustrating, as you can guess!). Then even sitting up was too much for my achy shoulders and arms and neck and I felt so drowsy I had to lie down and sleep for an hour-and-a-half, which has ruined my sleep for tonight. And here it comes - energy! (at nearly 2am...)

Before the b12 oils (and previously injections and sublinguals for a year), I wouldn't have even been able to contemplate any task like that, or felt any kind of morning energy (mostly bed/couch ridden with extreme weakness and generalised pain), so there is definitely an improvement. But it looks like I'll have to abide by the spoon theory for a while yet. You may have heard of it.

Yes, the meditation. Thanks so much for starting me off. This illness is so stressful and frustrating and physically and mentally consuming and time-out is badly needed.

 

[Mary]

@Athene - I have long thought that the term "post-exertional malaise" is one of the worst, if not the worst, medical terms ever invented, even worse than "chronic fatigue syndrome". "malaise" sounds like you just don't feel quite well, are a little off, maybe have the vapors or something

Your sudden weakness after exertion sounds to me how I felt when my adrenals were weak. This was different than post-exertional "malaise". The bone-deep exhaustion ("malaise") for me hits around 24 hours after exertion and used to last for 3 to 4 days, I literally couldn't do anything until it had passed. But before I had PEM, and when it was "just" my adrenals, I remember going for a walk feeling halfway okay and then suddenly being so weak, I might have trouble getting home.

One thing that has helped me a lot - it's been invaluable, I would have been much worse off without it - is the muscle testing done by a competent chiropractor. He found my weak adrenals and helped with that (the glandulars), he found several digestive issues and got my digestion humming along pretty much how it's supposed to, using Standard Process products. And my digestion was very bad off with an inflamed gallbladder, toxic liver, stuck ileocecal valve (yeah, I never knew there was such thing until it happened to me!) I also started taking betaine HCL with pepsin, with protein meals and I would not be without it now. I think most of us have low stomach acid and if you don't have enough stomach acid, no matter how many pills you take, you won't absorb them.

The muscle testing is relatively inexpensive compared to doctor visits. I'm not saying replace your doctor with this, but as an adjunct it can be extremely helpful. The first visit can be a little pricey (or not), can go up to $150 or so, but thereafter it's generally the price of an adjustment. I don't know if you're in the U.S. or not but there are chiros who take medicare and I've got one now who does muscle testing for me and I just pay my $8 copay. (he will do an adjustment at the same time)

I'm really glad the B12 oils are helping you so much. I did the shots off and on for several years and never noticed a difference either, nor with the sublinguals. But the Blue Bonnet liquid methyl B12 3 x a day seems to be making a difference for me. Sometime I am going to do what others have done and try to make a transdermal product out of it. Yes, I've heard of the spoon theory - it's a form of pacing as I recall.

Good luck with everything!

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* and others interested in the B-12 Oils supports (iodine/selenium/ and molybdenum). I finally got my test results back and what do you think? What's worse than not knowing your levels of a particular element? I suggest it's knowing the level and having the whole picture remain blurry.

My serum Molybdenum is at: 0.5 mcg/L In a range that ought to be: < 2.2 mcg/L

So, perhaps it's a bit low. My question as always is if this is a serum level, does it say anything about how much is actually in our cells? Well, in any case, I seem to be tolerating it better, and it may be that as your adrenals wake up and produce more adrenaline, your body needs more to lessen its effects.

Maybe so. I have started to add the B-12 back in @ only 1/4 of the Enzymatic Therapy lozenge; and a very LOW dose -- 1/4 of the Seeking Health B-Minus Complex--to have the base there (despite my high levels of some of these as I posted earlier). So let's see if this time round I can control the night time adrenaline and heart irregularities and potassium dumping. Cross your fingers for me, everyone!

Of note, I didn't mention that each morning when I wake after taking even a relatively low dose of the molybdenum, my ankles, which have been puffy, have gone down. By evening the swelling returns. That says something about electrolyte balance, I should think, and the effects of he molybdenum. So, I'm taking this as a good thing.

Now, though I had only 4 hours of sleep (used a drop of the Ado/Me combo yesterday--how long did that take you to get used to?!) I'm going for a walk.

Yesterday that drop of oil helped me to drag myself downtown to get my hair done. I crossed the Boston Common, where the gardens are beautiful and had to stop at one bed of roses, draw a white blossom toward me and inhale...

 

[Athene*]

@Athene - I have long thought that the term "post-exertional malaise" is one of the worst, if not the worst, medical terms ever invented, even worse than "chronic fatigue syndrome". "malaise" sounds like you just don't feel quite well, are a little off, maybe have the vapors or something

Your sudden weakness after exertion sounds to me how I felt when my adrenals were weak. This was different than post-exertional "malaise". The bone-deep exhaustion ("malaise") for me hits around 24 hours after exertion and used to last for 3 to 4 days, I literally couldn't do anything until it had passed. But before I had PEM, and when it was "just" my adrenals, I remember going for a walk feeling halfway okay and then suddenly being so weak, I might have trouble getting home.

One thing that has helped me a lot - it's been invaluable, I would have been much worse off without it - is the muscle testing done by a competent chiropractor. He found my weak adrenals and helped with that (the glandulars), he found several digestive issues and got my digestion humming along pretty much how it's supposed to, using Standard Process products. And my digestion was very bad off with an inflamed gallbladder, toxic liver, stuck ileocecal valve (yeah, I never knew there was such thing until it happened to me!) I also started taking betaine HCL with pepsin, with protein meals and I would not be without it now. I think most of us have low stomach acid and if you don't have enough stomach acid, no matter how many pills you take, you won't absorb them.

The muscle testing is relatively inexpensive compared to doctor visits. I'm not saying replace your doctor with this, but as an adjunct it can be extremely helpful. The first visit can be a little pricey (or not), can go up to $150 or so, but thereafter it's generally the price of an adjustment. I don't know if you're in the U.S. or not but there are chiros who take medicare and I've got one now who does muscle testing for me and I just pay my $8 copay. (he will do an adjustment at the same time)

I'm really glad the B12 oils are helping you so much. I did the shots off and on for several years and never noticed a difference either, nor with the sublinguals. But the Blue Bonnet liquid methyl B12 3 x a day seems to be making a difference for me. Sometime I am going to do what others have done and try to make a transdermal product out of it. Yes, I've heard of the spoon theory - it's a form of pacing as I recall.

Good luck with everything!

@Mary, this is so helpful and timely, thank you. You were very lucky finding that chiropractor.

I had a routine colonoscopy about three years ago and was told it was 'perfectly normal' and that the coeliac diet was working. The gastroenterologist mentioned there was 'slight inflammation' at the ileocecal valve and brushed it off as 'probably a food allergy or something'. He knew I was gluten-free already (I'm coeliac) and you know how they minimise everything, so I always wondered about that inflammation and what to do about it.

I have stopped making bile (I won't go into gory details of how I know!) for last few months and there is gallbladder disease in the family, so your comment on that is pertinent too. I haven't had a chance to read @Kathevans document which she kindly provided on an earlier thread to do with choline and PEMT (which I am), so I'm not sure I'm taking the correct form of choline. Do you take some form of choline too?

The 'vapours'! Oh, that did make me smile. 'Malaise' is a very poor descriptor indeed.

I actually tried the Betaine HCL with pepsin and wasn't able to take even half of a 300mg tablet without awful acid reflux. I had acid reflux for years in the early days and weaned myself of proton pump inhibitors because of the dangers of them (blocking absorption of nutrients). I have a faulty valve that lets acid through. But, since addressing thyroid, b12, gluten etc, the reflux has completely gone away (thankfully), except when I took the Betaine, which is a pity, because I definitely am not digesting food properly.

Do you know if Apple Cider vinegar would be a good substitute for Betaine HCL? I tolerate it with no bother and was taking it for a couple of years lately before I ran out a few months ago.

PS
I believe @ahmo came up with a transdermal b12 that worked for her

 

[Athene*]

My question as always is if this is a serum level, does it say anything about how much is actually in our cells? Well, in any case, I seem to be tolerating it better, and it may be that as your adrenals wake up and produce more adrenaline, your body needs more to lessen its effects.

Good question and one I'd like to have an answer to as well, given my b12 and folate were always high in serum and low at cellular level. Who knows what my other levels are, but it's good that you have yours to look at (and do more homework on!). Do let us know what Greg thinks, especially re your serum b2.

Interesting about the molybdenum and fluid retention. I have trouble with fluid retention too, on and off, and it's definitely a hypo adrenal thing. I must try your form of molybdenum. Mine is too hard on my tummy, even with food. I'll try cutting a piece off the tablet first before I order anything else.

The me/ado combo took me about three weeks to get used to, but I used more than you (2 sprays daily) so it's hard to compare. I use up a lot of b12 because I have pernicious anaemia as well as MTRR etc etc

That's lovely that you got out in the fresh air. Sounds like a healthy and grounding sensuous experience. So vital for us house confined creatures...I know it sounds daft, but if I can't get out, I try to walk in the grass in my back garden in my bare feet (constant rain here right now though...)

Now, though I had only 4 hours of sleep

My sleep was hugely improved for weeks on end after a few weeks on b12oils and even when I added Meb12/Ado. It really was fantastic. However, since I weaned off the hydrocortisone, it's all gone to pot. Awake all night until 6 or 7 am, no matter what time I get up in the mornings. I'm now sleeping roughly from 6am to 12.30pm just to get a few hours in

 

[ahmo]

I believe @ahmo came up with a transdermal b12 that worked for her

I'm crushing B12 and combining w/lotion or olive oil on piece of fabric. has been as effective as the commercial B12oil.

I also rely on self-testing. It's been how I've inched forward in my supplement and diet protocols. And B12 resolved my life-long tendency to sleep issues, which had become chronic and debilitating w/ ME. Once I got enough B12, I now go to sleep, stay asleep, and easily return to sleep if awakened. Heaven.

 

[Kathevans]

Do you know if Apple Cider vinegar would be a good substitute for Betaine HCL?

My naturopath recommended a teaspoon of ACV with another of bitters he mixes and add a little water. It's not the same as Betaine HCL, but it does help over time. I also can't tolerate the Betaine--but because it's yet another thing that affects my sleep. Not in a good way!

It might be interesting to know that on another thread here I read that zinc helps to convert B2 to FMN. I haven't checked that out, but if you're taking the basic B2, it may also explain why you need/tolerate so much to get your good results. Just a thought.

I took more molybdenum today and felt very tired for most of it. (My moly is by BodyBio - very simple drops which can be found on Amazon, I believe) No energy or will to go beyond the front stoop. Oh dear. As to sleep, we'll see. So sorry to hear about your sleep. Maybe the adjustment to no hydrocortisone will be a relatively short one.

I've started a note to Greg, but I want to have a little more time on the molybdenum to see if I can raise the levels I'm taking and follow the results a bit more...

I try to walk in the grass in my back garden in my bare feet

Did you know that this is a form of earthing? This from the website of a fairly popular alternative doctor:

"The technique of grounding, also known as earthing, is simple: you walk barefoot to "ground" with the Earth. The scientific theory behind the health benefits seen from this simple practice is that your body absorbs negative electrons from the Earth through the soles of your feet.

The Earth is negatively charged, so when you ground, you're connecting your body to a negatively charged supply of energy. And since the Earth has a greater negative charge than your body, you end up absorbing electrons from it. The grounding effect is, in my understanding, one of the most potent antioxidants we know of and may have an anti-inflammatory effect on your body. As written in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine:4

"It is well established, though not widely known, that the surface of the earth possesses a limitless and continuously renewed supply of free or mobile electrons as a consequence of a global atmospheric electron circuit. Wearing shoes with insulating soles and/or sleeping in beds that are isolated from the electrical ground plane of the earth have disconnected most people from the earth's electrical rhythms and free electrons.

… A previous study demonstrated that connecting the human body to the earth during sleep (earthing) normalizes the daily cortisol rhythm and improves sleep. A variety of other benefits were reported, including reductions in pain and inflammation. Subsequent studies have confirmed these earlier findings and documented virtually immediate physiologic and clinical effects of grounding or earthing the body."

( My boldface above) My husband just put up the hammock in our backyard so I can rock out there with my bare feet on the ground. Unfortunately, out back yard is full of chipmunks who've tunneled under the whole thing. Little rodents!

 

[Athene*]

I'm crushing B12 and combining w/lotion or olive oil on piece of fabric. has been as effective as the commercial B12oil.

I also rely on self-testing. It's been how I've inched forward in my supplement and diet protocols. And B12 resolved my life-long tendency to sleep issues, which had become chronic and debilitating w/ ME. Once I got enough B12, I now go to sleep, stay asleep, and easily return to sleep if awakened. Heaven.

@ahmo That's fascinating how you're making your own oil and doing so well. With my multiple b12 snps and pernicious anaemia diagnosis I'm too scared not to use Greg's oil! But I'm so thrilled not to have to inject anymore