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Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
Iodine deficiency in the U.S. might be a common reason why so many in the U.S. can't make FAD or functional B2.

In the U.S. there is little iodine in the food, however food manufacturers often use bromine (not iodine), which displaces iodine in the body. There is a lot of bromine use in consumer products and it is used in sanitizing of hot tubs or spas.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
but I keep reading Fred's posts all the time and try to incorporate both their knowledge bases.

Me too.

I will have a difficult job convincing the doctor to re prescribe

Easy to buy online without a script, and much cheaper.

It's highly regulated in Australia - my doctor can't prescribe it. She was most interested when I told her I was taking it and asked me for information!

Can I ask if you use sublingual B6/p5p as well as B2/r5p?

Yes. After my experiences with the sublingual R5P I decided to try the sublingual P5P. B6 is something I have experimented with a lot because of oxalate issues. I do seem to have reduced my body oxalate stores so can't compare it for promoting oxalate dumping (a good test of potency) but I can say that with 2 x 25 mg P5P SL daily I dream consistently.

I have at times taken around 200 mg as mixed P5P (enteric coated, swallowed) and pyridoxine and didn't dream consistently (maybe not a fair comparison because then I was dealing with serious oxalate problems and maybe the B6 was being diverted to that task).

Anyhow I am delighted with the P5P SL and even though I hate the taste of the Source Naturals SLs I'll keep taking them. They seem much more effective for me at least.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Great to hear about your positive P5P SL experience, @alicec I just picked mine up at Parcel Motel a few minutes ago :) Looking forward to dreams, hopefully good ones! I've been on b2 in one form or another for months without much B6 at all so it's time to add some for me. Might even be a current limiting factor, I guess.

At the risk of badgering you for more info - could I ask where you buy the LDN online in case I decide to re-try it later? (I got it prescribed by an 'alternative' GP 'off-license' who charged an arm and a leg for consultations & scripts and then my own GP reluctantly continued it for me. I had to pay a lot to get it compounded in a pharmacy) - they always stressed it had to be the 'fast release' form as far as I remember - is that important do you think?

Many thanks
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
could I ask where you buy the LDN online

I bought it here.

There are threads on PR on on-line pharmacies which list other places people have bought it.

The 50 mg tablets are sent to you directly from India. I just crush 1 tablet in a mortar, dissolve in 50 ml filtered water (I actually use water which has been boiled and cooled - remnants in the kettle), mix well and store in the fridge.

The naltrexone itself is soluble but not so some of the fillers etc in the tablets. This makes the solution cloudy but it will largely settle out. Just leave the gunk at the bottom of the bottle.

For storage I use a brown glass bottle with a screw on dropper. Protection from light may not be strictly necessary but I think it's a good idea.

I drop of the solution (1 mg/ml) contains about 0.05 mg ( 1 ml is about 20 drops). Just count the number of drops delivered by your particular dropper to work out how many droppers-full to take once you build up to higher doses. I just add to a cup of water and swallow.
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
@CCC as well, if at all possible - could you say what you're currently taking?

We started with the freddd protocol + b2, but we've ended up with
  • every day: b12 oils (2 slurps of the methylB12 and 1 slurp of adenoB12 - all at once in the morning), royal jelly (morning and night), a multi from life extensions, vitamin K2 (180mg/day), FMN (1-3 a day, depending on the body)
  • vitamin A in cod liver oil every second day (the A in the mutli wasn't enough or wasn't being used)
  • recently added: iron fumarate (50mg) and manganese - alternating days
  • a top up of sublinguals of ab12 as required
  • occasional methylfolate if needed (only every few days now)
  • epsom salt footbaths, with some zinc and eucalyptus oil added - was daily, but now only every few days.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
"Slurps," that's a new term for the b12oils dosage... :rofl:

@CCC, that's interesting that you take your 3 slurps in the morning. My need for B12 seems to spike at night. I generally take one dose in the morning, which carries me through the whole day -- but then I take 2 at bedtime, and quite often I wake up in 2-4 hours needing more. Usually though 1/4 of a Country Life 5000mcg sublingual will put me back to sleep.

**WARNING** on the Life Extensions 2-per-day !!! A few months ago I started having serious recurrence of my night-time symptoms -- waking to agitation, thrashing, etc -- and neither CL nor B12oil seemed to help. I was really scared that B12 was losing its effectiveness, and I had no other way to control those symptoms. I happened to start looking into mercury/amalgam poisoning at the same time, and the Cutler protocol uses ALA as the primary mercury chelator. It pulls the mercury out of your brain &etc so your body can flush it out. They VERY STRONGLY warn against taking ALA if you still have amalgams, especially if you don't use the protocol's frequent 3-hour dosing schedule, because it can pull mercury out of your amalgams and redistribute it throughout your body. It can cause very serious mercury problems. (It can even be a problem if you DON'T have amalgams, if you have mercury toxicity from seafood, broken fluorescent bulbs, or other sources.) Well I looked, and sure enough the 2-per-day has ALA in it! Fortunately I'd only been taking it for about a month. I stopped taking it, and my night-time symptoms stopped within 48 hours. I also just realized that another symptom that started bothering me a month or two ago has disappeared -- maybe it was caused by the ALA too. So, ESPECIALLY if you have any amalgam fillings, I would seriously recommend you consider dropping the 2-per-day supplements!!
 
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CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Slurp is the term in our household. :p

We can't take the oil at night - it gives a very interrupted sleep. My son tops up his ab12 need in the late afternoon/evening with the sublingual b12 if required. His body tells him, and he takes whatever is needed.

Thanks for the warning about the Life extensions 2 a day, too. I'm so glad you're feeling better - and that you worked out what was happening. I was wondering how you were going with that.

We're on the LE capsules because we were having compliance issues and 1 capsule twice a day seemed easier than many, many tablets and capsules that were causing something we called 'tablet tummy'. The boy went a little bit downhill initially when we switched from the multitude of stuff to the single LE capsules, but then I saw a paper someone had posted about some people needing real vitamin A rather than the carotene stuff in the LE and other supplements. Once we added back extra vitamin A, we were fine.

I did see the ALA in the ingredients list, but my son is 16 years old, has no mercury (no fillings) and no exposure to mercury (won't eat fish) that we can think of. I also didn't think the ALA dose was enough to do anything, but your experience shows otherwise. Does ALA chelate anything else, or only mercury?

"Slurps," that's a new term for the b12oils dosage... :rofl:

@CCC, that's interesting that you take your 3 slurps in the morning. My need for B12 seems to spike at night. I generally take one dose in the morning, which carries me through the whole day -- but then I take 2 at bedtime, and quite often I wake up in 2-4 hours needing more. Usually though 1/4 of a Country Life 5000mcg sublingual will put me back to sleep.

**WARNING** on the Life Extensions 2-per-day !!! A few months ago I started having serious recurrence of my night-time symptoms -- waking to agitation, thrashing, etc -- and neither CL nor B12oil seemed to help. I was really scared that B12 was losing its effectiveness, and I had no other way to control those symptoms. I happened to start looking into mercury/amalgam poisoning at the same time, and the Cutler protocol uses ALA as the primary mercury chelator. It pulls the mercury out of your brain &etc so your body can flush it out. They VERY STRONGLY warn against taking ALA if you still have amalgams, especially if you don't use the protocol's frequent 3-hour dosing schedule, because it can pull mercury out of your amalgams and redistribute it throughout your body. It can cause very serious mercury problems. (It can even be a problem if you DON'T have amalgams, if you have mercury toxicity from seafood, broken fluorescent bulbs, or other sources.) Well I looked, and sure enough the 2-per-day has ALA in it! Fortunately I'd only been taking it for about a month. I stopped taking it, and my night-time symptoms stopped within 48 hours. I also just realized that another symptom that started bothering me a month or two ago has disappeared -- maybe it was caused by the ALA too. So, ESPECIALLY if you have any amalgam fillings, I would seriously recommend you consider dropping the 2-per-day supplements!!
 
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Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Thanks for the update @CCC Love the 'slurp' term:) I too began a small dose of vit A recently (half a tablet) and have found it a great help. It's good for hypothyroidism which I have too. I'm finding the SL r5p really effective (thanks @alicec !) and the manganese too (also really effective!). I'm on daily 2mg b12 injections now as well as the oils so I'm back on the big doses of Fredd P and seem to need it all for now, especially with the high dose 5MTHF (25mg - hoping to lower this soon now the SL r5p and manganese are doing their work...)

For me it's important to get a high level of b12 in the serum or else I get methyl trap symptoms (too much folate in relation to b12). Do you know if taking 3 sprays all at once like you do helps to do that?

@garyfritz or @alicec too, if you're about - any idea how much of the oil is actually present in the serum after you slather it on, or how long does it take to reach a peak? Does it then drop down quickly?
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
@Athene, @garyfritz Note my post had a bit of an error - we top up the need for ab12 with ab12 sublinguals, not with FMN sublinguals as I originally typed. That said, there's a bit of FMN activity in the evenings too.

How much of a hit does 3 slurps give? My son says he can't really answer the question. I think it's still a smooth dosage curve, so it's probably not the CNS-penetrating dose some people are looking for.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
I did see the ALA in the ingredients list, but my son is 16 years old, has no mercury (no fillings) and no exposure to mercury (won't eat fish) that we can think of. I also didn't think the ALA dose was enough to do anything, but your experience shows otherwise. Does ALA chelate anything else, or only mercury?
I believe it chelates several metals.

If your son doesn't have fillings & doesn't eat fish, he MAY not have mercury. But you can get mercury from playing with it (I did, back in high school), or dropping a mercury thermometer, or breaking a CFL bulb, or... and IF you have mercury stored in your body, ALA will stir it up and cause additional damage. It is just not worth it for the convenience of 2 pills, IMHO. There are other multis.

[How much of a hit does 3 slurps give? My son says he can't really answer the question. I think it's still a smooth dosage curve, so it's probably not the CNS-penetrating dose some people are looking for.
I don't know the exact dose. I know I was taking 30-40mg/day of Country Life and it didn't work as well as 3 "slurps" of oil. But yes, it is a smooth curve, not a spike. That's one of its big advantages -- steady delivery all day long. @Athene*, I think that answers your question too?
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
I believe it chelates several metals.

If your son doesn't have fillings & doesn't eat fish, he MAY not have mercury. But you can get mercury from playing with it (I did, back in high school), or dropping a mercury thermometer, or breaking a CFL bulb, or... and IF you have mercury stored in your body, ALA will stir it up and cause additional damage. It is just not worth it for the convenience of 2 pills, IMHO. There are other multis.


I don't know the exact dose. I know I was taking 30-40mg/day of Country Life and it didn't work as well as 3 "slurps" of oil. But yes, it is a smooth curve, not a spike. That's one of its big advantages -- steady delivery all day long. @Athene*, I think that answers your question too?
Thanks, @garyfritz I'm worried I might need the 'spikes' as well as the all-day 'steady delivery' - in case of any lurking or threatening brain damage from years of undiagnosed pernicious anaemia and other B12 & folate issues - I don't absorb, convert, or recycle them and probably haven't been for decades - getting worse since mid 30s
 

boohealth

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
south
Iodine deficiency in the U.S. might be a common reason why so many in the U.S. can't make FAD or functional B2.

In the U.S. there is little iodine in the food, however food manufacturers often use bromine (not iodine), which displaces iodine in the body. There is a lot of bromine use in consumer products and it is used in sanitizing of hot tubs or spas.

Flame retardants have halides too, that displace iodine and they're ubiquitous. You can use kelp and dulse liberally on your food.
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
On another note, does anyone remember the amounts of B vitamins in the B group oil?

I know it's somewhere on PR, but I can't find it for looking.

I'm thinking it might be nice to give the B group a go now @garyfritz has put out the heebie jeebies about the LE two per day.

Many thanks.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@CCC garyfritz gave us the breakdown and said:
TL;DR Summary:

A small Australian company makes a B12-infused oil, like massage oil. Rub it into your skin and the B12 diffuses into your system. It's supposed to work better than other delivery mechanisms. They have animal tests showing as much as 80% absorption, and they're currently doing a clinical trial on humans. That's vastly higher than you're going to get from sublinguals, and the oils are supposed to deliver steadier B12 serum levels than injection.

Their website (http://www.b12oils.com) is terrible, lacking even basic information. But they're extremely helpful and the product seems to work well. I've summarized most of the need-to-know info here.

The oils come in little bottles that measure out a 0.25ml squirt. Each bottle has about 50-60 "squirt" doses. They recommend one squirt/day, but I'm finding 3 or even 4 is working much better for my specific SNPs.

They have two main B12 products:
  • Pure methyl B12, with 3mg/ml of B12, 0.75mg mB12 per dose.
  • Adeno/methyl B12, with 7.5mg/ml of Adeno and 2.5mg/ml methyl. So that's about 1.875mg adB12 and 0.625mg mB12 per dose. They say that is the proportion normally found in the body ("although of course this would be in a person who methylates normally"), and people with CFS/ME get good results with it. With my SNPs I think I'm doing better with more methyl.
They also have pure-adeno, hydroxyl, hydroxyl/methyl, and others. Pricing is $50/bottle, roughly $1/dose. Buy 3 bottles (any combination) and the price drops to $40.

I've only been using it for about 10 days, but so far the results are much better than the 20mg Country Life mB12 + 4mg adB12 I was using before. I might need 2-3 doses per day for best results -- still testing. I also tried IM and SC injection and neither seemed to work as well for me as the CL, so this is by far the best thing I've found so far.

===============================

Much more detail:

In this thread @Lynn_M said she'd been using a transdermal oil product for over a year and was very pleased with the results. I ordered some to give it a try.

As I said above their website is terrible, but their "support person" Greg (who I later realized is Dr. Gregory Russell-Jones, director of the company) is extraordinarily helpful. He says he's not an MD, "just" a PhD biochemist with 25 years of studying B12 metabolism, so he's very familiar with all the relevant SNPs and reactions.

Greg helped me clarify my understanding of how B12 metabolism works. For the benefit of anyone else who might be interested, here's what I've learned and how it applies to the oil products:
  • B12 is used constantly in nearly all systems of the body, but especially the brain and nervous system.
  • Sublinguals and injections (and the oil) raise the B12 level in serum, but the B12 is not usable in this state. It must be picked up by a "transporter molecule," transcobolamin II (TCII), and delivered to where it is needed.
  • The problems with sublinguals, and even injections to a lesser extent, are absorption and duration. Sublinguals typically have very poor absorption, especially if you dissolve them quickly. Greg says "very, very little" of the B12 from sublinguals reaches the brain. Sublinguals and IM injections spike the serum levels of B12 for a short time but don't maintain it. SC injections are better but still not ideal. The oil is supposed to deliver B12 slowly over the course of 8 hours or more. For my specific situation one 8-hour dose per day wasn't enough to keep my symptoms under control, but it does seem to work much better than sublinguals or injections. More frequent application worked much better.
  • Greg used the analogy of the TCII being like a ferry boat that carries cars across a river. Say the ferry carries 10 cars. Sublinguals and injections tend to spike the levels, so there are 100 or 1000 cars waiting in line for a little while. But before the ferry can carry them away, the B12 levels drop. So most of the B12 is lost and wasted. It does no good to have 1000 cars there for a short time; you want at least 10 or 20 cars there ALL the time, 24x7, so you can always load up a ferry whenever one shows up. The oil is supposed to excel at that.
  • BTW this is why you're not supposed to suck on sublinguals -- they dissolve too fast. Not only do you absorb less, but you spike the levels for a shorter window of time. You want to dribble B12 into your system as slowly and as consistently as possible, to load up as many TCII's as possible.
  • I asked Greg if there was any way to increase the number of TCII's so we could speed up the B12 pipeline. He said "Choose different parents?" :) So we just have to make sure we make the best use of the TCII we have.
  • The TCII ferries can deliver B12 to the brain or wherever it is needed at the moment. If there is no B12 in serum, the TCII can load up from the B12 reservoir in the liver. Ideally the liver holds about 5mg of B12 in reserve. (The brain may store a reserve too -- not sure on that point.) But if your B12 requirements are higher than your B12 supply -- which is typical for those of us with the various B12-related SNPs -- then the reservoir in the liver eventually gets drained. Then you have no source of B12, the TCII ferries are empty, and you start to show acute B12 deficiency symptoms, e.g. CFS/ME. (I suspect this is what happened to me over the past 1-2 years: with age my ability to process and deliver B12 decreased. I had periodic symptoms as my B12 supply fluctuated. I eventually drained my liver's B12 reservoir, and then I started feeling like crap.)
  • One interesting side factoid was that MTFR/MTRR appear in the population at much less than expected Mendelian levels, because fewer fetuses with the mutations survive. In countries where they don't supplement with folate, the incidence of the MTFR/MTRR SNPs is only 3% or so. In countries where they do supplement, the levels of the SNPs are much higher. As are levels of autism &etc.
The oil is supposed to keep your serum levels high at all times so the TCII is always loaded up for immediate needs, AND for re-stocking the reserves in the liver. Greg warned that it could take a year to fully top up the reservoir.

He says many people get good results from a single dose per day. In 10 days of testing, I found it only seemed to work for 4-6 hours for me. In the last few days I've boosted to 3-4 doses/day, and my symptoms have mostly disappeared. My muscles are still a trifle achy/tingly but my energy level is better and I'm sleeping soundly through the night. (And this is in spite of "challenging" it for the last few days. In the last several months I haven't been tolerating alcohol at all well. The last 2 days I got together with friends and had 3-4 drinks -- and had no adverse effects!) This is MUCH better than I was doing with 20-30mg/day of CL mB12 plus 4mg/day of adB12. Greg says it sometimes takes a few weeks for people to "take to" the oils, and it takes about a full month to get full benefit, so in another week or two it may start working better and I may be able to back off to 1-2/day.

After some period of using extra doses, I should fill up my reserve tank, and after that I think I can probably back off to a lower level. But the results I'm getting with ~3 doses/day are well worth it to me. I'll be happy to use the higher dosages for a year if it means my symptoms vanish and the re-supplied reservoir will once again protect me from deficiency.

Using the oils: just squirt a dose into your hand and rub it into your skin. Leave it on, i.e. don't wash it off. Greg says you can rub it anywhere, but I suspect it might work better if applied to fatty tissue. So I've been applying it around my belly and midsection. The oil is quite red, but it rubs in fine. I might notice a very slight rosy glow where I've rubbed it in, but I might be imagining it.

So that's what I know about the oils so far. I'm very pleased with the results I'm getting and I'm excited to see how it improves over time.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
On another note, does anyone remember the amounts of B vitamins in the B group oil?

I know it's somewhere on PR, but I can't find it for looking.

I'm thinking it might be nice to give the B group a go now @garyfritz has put out the heebie jeebies about the LE two per day.

Many thanks.
The following is on my Word files but it's per @ Dannybex from an older thread and since then Greg told me he has added biotin (vitamin H)) - not sure how much (I stopped using it because of the high nicotinamide - didn't seem to suit me)

Dose per 0.25 ml squirt of B Group Oil
Vitamin B1 Thiamine 0.5 mg

Vitamin B2 Riboflavin 0.025 mg

Vitamin B3 Nicotinamide 2.5 mg

Vitamin B5 Pantothenol 1.25 mg

Vitamin B6 Pyridoxal 1.25 mg

*Biotin, see above

AdenosylCbl 0.5 mg
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
Can I ask folks here a slightly TMI question re b2? Greg of b12oils says we should have bright green pee when we're taking enough b2, otherwise it's not absorbing. Mine is not bright green.

Have this bright green color 1 or 2 hours right after my first 100mg of b2 intake, do you think guys that it means I don't need a daily intake? TY.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Have this bright green color 1 or 2 hours right after my first 100mg of b2 intake, do you think guys that it means I don't need a daily intake? TY.
I don't know, Theodore. Sorry. I do notice the green colour fluctuates a lot, depending on water intake. I have heard that the green colour can be both a sign of b2 repletion as well as b2 toxicity, so it's hard to say what's going on...
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
I don't know, Theodore. Sorry. I do notice the green colour fluctuates a lot, depending on water intake. I have heard that the green colour can be both a sign of b2 repletion as well as b2 toxicity, so it's hard to say what's going on...

Thank you. I didn't know it was also a sign of toxicity but oddly this green color is gone today...So you're right, it can fluctuates :).