Transdermal B12 oils

[stridor]

@Abrin Have you thought about doing injections instead?

 

[Abrin]

@Abrin Have you thought about doing injections instead?

I have to embarrassingly admit that I am rather a coward when it comes to needles.

 

[stridor]

I have to embarrassingly admit that I am rather a coward when it comes to needles.

Totally normal and nothing to be embarrassed about. Everyone's hand shakes the first time they give themselves a needle. The little insulin syringes that I use are very tolerable. We buy them bulk and they ship to our home in one day. The mB12 comes from a Compounding Pharmacy.

 

[Johnmac]

I am sorry if this question has already been asked because I hate wasting other people's time but I was honestly just too tired to read through all 35 pages of this thread today.

Does anyone know of a Canadian supplier for these types of oils? With the exchange rate of one American dollar being worth $1.32 Canadian skipping products in from American suppliers tends to add up in cost very quickly.

The oils we've been talking of are only made in Australia. The maker, B12 scientist Greg Russell-Jones, claims that he has used carrier oils that make their penetration much better than that of other such oils.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Started the oil today, methyl/acytl combo. I did notice a lift for about 3 or 4 hours and then a slow gradual decline from there. It was the nicest lift I have had in ages actually and I don't feel like I've crashed since I took it. I'm going to do 1 pump a day for now and may reduce if it disrupts sleep and starts making my mind race. Other than that very impressed.

 

[chasingmytail]

Started the oil today, methyl/acytl combo. I did notice a lift for about 3 or 4 hours and then a slow gradual decline from there. It was the nicest lift I have had in ages actually and I don't feel like I've crashed since I took it. I'm going to do 1 pump a day for now and may reduce if it disrupts sleep and starts making my mind race. Other than that very impressed.

Just wondering how you are feeling on the oils. Have you found a difference and what oils do you use as I am also in Uk all I can find is oral supps.

 

[Kathevans]

Just wondering how you are feeling on the oils. Have you found a difference and what oils do you use as I am also in Uk all I can find is oral supps.

These oils are a life-saver as far as I'm concerned. But a B-12 deficiency may not be your only problem. Mine (as you can tell from my snps) was much more complex. I'm still on high dose oils, which is to say two squirts of the Adeno/Methyl and one of the Methyl. But as Dr Gregory Russell-Jones says, you will chew up B12 and folate if you aren't able to recycle them. This ability comes from having enough B2 and a functioning thyroid. For the details to this conundrum, check out the "Understanding B-12 Deficiency" site on FB. It has helped me to clarify the issues. I worked with Greg via email for several years and still hadn't correctly 'fixed' my genetics. That has taken getting clarity on the site. In the years that I've been following Greg's work, his protocol has become more specific--ie eating a few Brazil nuts for selenium has become taking 50-200mcg of SELENITE (the only form that has really worked for me, and many others on the site). But there is more...

Ultimately, Greg works with anyone who has taken an OAT or NutrEval Test and who send along their genetics, if you have them, and thyroid numbers.

It has been a long journey for me - fibro/cfs for 20+ years, and a crash about 5 years ago that made me take things in hand. I've also had all my amalgam removed and am working on chelating heavy metals via the Cutler Protocol. It has all helped, but it has been one tough journey.

The very best in 2021!

Kathleen

 

[garyfritz]

Just wondering how you are feeling on the oils. Have you found a difference and what oils do you use as I am also in Uk all I can find is oral supps.

Order the oils from Australia -- that's what we did. I tried every form of B12 delivery I could find, and the oils were BY FAR the best answer. As @Kathevans said, they were a life-saver for me.

I don't use them any more. Since I got my amalgams out 3-4 yrs ago, my B12 symptoms pretty much stopped. But I do have an old bottle on hand "just in case."

 

[Kathevans]

@garyfritz Gary! Did you have to chelate for any length of time? I'm on round #75 at 25mg ALA, though my biggest shifts seem to come as I refeed severe deficiencies - enough selenite, for example, and molybdenum as well as enough iodide to get my TSH down--all of these an effort to get B2 (MAO, right?) functioning effectively. But I will get there!

 

[garyfritz]

Hi @Kathevans! I chelated in record time. After 6 weeks of DMSA (waiting after my last removal), I started with 7.5mg ALA on 3/5/18. After 2 weeks I dropped down to 5, then again down to 3. I did 5 weeks at 3, then I increased about 50% every 3 weeks like clockwork. I really didn't feel any effects so I kept boosting it. I never felt like I hit "the Dump." (I also did a DMSA round roughly once a month, and DPMS on my "off" weeks, from 3/18/18 through the end of 2018.)

By 2/4/19 (less than 1 year) I was at 600mg ALA. I stayed at that level for 7 months. Then in late 2019 all hell broke loose (2 cancer diagnoses, among other things), and I stopped chelating.

I occasionally get a bit of RLS, but rarely. I've considered doing some more chelation, but I'm doing so much nutritional stuff for my cancer (including ALA) that I think it's crazy to try to add a full chelation regimen back into it.

 

[Kathevans]

@garyfritz I’m so sorry to hear of your cancer diagnosis. I hope things are going well and that you have good support, both in terms of people and all that you’ve learned about what you’re body needs. I’m sure that all your efforts with B-12 have helped balance your body.

I am very impressed by your experience with chelation, particularly with being able to get up to 600mg of ALA (per day, I’m assuming? As In general I think we go up to about our body weight per dose... ) At this point I think co-infections may be a limiting factor for me, though a mainstream doctor I’ve seen told me that taking 600mg of ALA 2x/day could clear up my gut. I will nearly reach that if I keep on going, But I’m only up to 200/day for the three day chelation period currently.

These bodies take a lot of work to keep chugging...

 

[godlovesatrier]

Just wondering how you are feeling on the oils. Have you found a difference and what oils do you use as I am also in Uk all I can find is oral supps.

Works great for me. I use it about once a week, or even less. I find I don't need a lot to stay topped up. It over stimulates me but I think that's because I am simply not deficient in it. I might have had low levels before but I definitely do not now. So I take it irregularly. Works for me though.

 

[garyfritz]

I am very impressed by your experience with chelation, particularly with being able to get up to 600mg of ALA (per day, I’m assuming?

Heh. No. Per DOSE. Which was something like 2-3x the recommended maximum, if I remember right, but we found evidence that Freddd had said higher doses were OK in a situation like mine.

 

[Kathevans]

Heh. No. Per DOSE. Which was something like 2-3x the recommended maximum, if I remember right, but we found evidence that Freddd had said higher doses were OK in a situation like mine.

Wow - and given what my mainstream doc says about my oral/gastric infection, it makes sense that I might have to go a bit higher, myself. I'm glad to have this info. Thanks! And take care... (ALA is kind of amazing)

 

[seamyb]

Greg's accounts for what is going on are very interesting. For example, see

https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm

for his protocol and

https://b12oils.com/paradoxical.htm

for the theory.

Essentially Iodine, Selenium and Molybdenum need to be in plentiful supply to activate B2. If B2 isn't activated, B12 can exist in inactive forms in the cells and builds up. High oral doses of B12 can also cause this as the stomach acid modifies the cobalamin and the proteins still transport the modified and inactive b12 to the cells, where they are useless. Blood tests for serum B12 will still count these as B12.

But the lack of B2 or active B2 is what actually causes the B12 requirements in some people to rise. Without it, B12 doesn't get re-methylated and is used only once before becoming inactive. It should be used thousands of times. Hence, people get a benefit from thousands of times more B12 than is usual.

 

[Kathevans]

Greg's accounts for what is going on are very interesting. For example, see

https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm

for his protocol and

https://b12oils.com/paradoxical.htm

for the theory.

Essentially Iodine, Selenium and Molybdenum need to be in plentiful supply to activate B2. If B2 isn't activated, B12 can exist in inactive forms in the cells and builds up. High oral doses of B12 can also cause this as the stomach acid modifies the cobalamin and the proteins still transport the modified and inactive b12 to the cells, where they are useless. Blood tests for serum B12 will still count these as B12.

But the lack of B2 or active B2 is what actually causes the B12 requirements in some people to rise. Without it, B12 doesn't get re-methylated and is used only once before becoming inactive. It should be used thousands of times. Hence, people get a benefit from thousands of times more B12 than is usual.

Yes. And I've spent the last four years going on and off the correct forms of these minerals, trying to understand what was going on. It's amazing, really. And to some extent a learning process for Greg as well, who initially thought that eating a few Brazil nuts a day was enough to resolve selenium deficiencies. And I am a classic case of the person who, without the right cofactors, continues to 'eat up' B-12 and folate, rather than recycle them, which is what the 'activated' B2 actually allows. The site is very good and supportive and basically collects Greg's information from each of us who have had some dialogue with him. There is a wealth of useful information.

 

[seamyb]

I've spent the last four years going on and off the correct forms of these minerals, trying to understand what was going on

So, the Iodine, Selenium and Molybdenum followed by B2 didn't get your requirements down? I'm not long into trying this treatment strategy (or that long into CFS actually), but I know for a fact that folate, b12 and anything that relates to them is involved in my version of the illness. Greg has given the best explanation for why his protocol might work, IMO. It's not too dissimilar to the other methylation protocols either. Although I do miss Rich (despite joining less than a week ago and only ever reading his stuff long after he had died).

 

[Kathevans]

So, the Iodine, Selenium and Molybdenum followed by B2 didn't get your requirements down? I'm not long into trying this treatment strategy (or that long into CFS actually), but I know for a fact that folate, b12 and anything that relates to them is involved in my version of the illness. Greg has given the best explanation for why his protocol might work, IMO. It's not too dissimilar to the other methylation protocols either. Although I do miss Rich (despite joining less than a week ago and only ever reading his stuff long after he had died).

The issue is that the cofactors must be the correct forms of these elements—Iodide, Molybdate, and either Selenate or (for me) Selenite ( I took Selenate, which Greg said works for two years before switching to selenite); and for proper absorption, you must take them without food, and away from citric acid, as vitamin C, or lemon juice, etc as well.) Strangely, though I’d taken a form of iodide that seems to work for many for years, there was another form that gives me much more of a start-up reaction, than this, that seems to work better for me. Then too, I didn’t fully understand how the influence of all these can be read—to a large degree apparently—by Greg, as the numbers of a Full Thyroid panel that shows Total T4 and Total T3. The web site goes through all this information. Working with Greg and testing, testing, testing can assure you are on track. It’s something I’m much more tuned into now. Good luck!

 

[seamyb]

The issue is that the cofactors must be the correct forms of these elements—Iodide, Molybdate, and either Selenate or (for me) Selenite ( I took Selenate, which Greg said works for two years before switching to selenite); and for proper absorption, you must take them without food, and away from citric acid, as vitamin C, or lemon juice, etc as well.) Strangely, though I’d taken a form of iodide that seems to work for many for years, there was another form that gives me much more of a start-up reaction, than this, that seems to work better for me. Then too, I didn’t fully understand how the influence of all these can be read—to a large degree apparently—by Greg, as the numbers of a Full Thyroid panel that shows Total T4 and Total T3. The web site goes through all this information. Working with Greg and testing, testing, testing can assure you are on track. It’s something I’m much more tuned into now. Good luck!

Kath, could you link to the specific iodine and selenium you take? I've just looked at the ingredients of mine and realise they have magnesium stearate as caking agent... I think magnesium is advised against to be taken with these by Greg .

 

[Kathevans]

Kath, could you link to the specific iodine and selenium you take? I've just looked at the ingredients of mine and realise they have magnesium stearate as caking agent... I think magnesium is advised against to be taken with these by Greg .

This is the Iodine (Iodide) I switched over to from the BodyBio Iodine, which I'd taken for years. I've experienced start-up symptoms, and now more shifts than I did with the BodyBio.
https://supplementfirst.com/products/genestra-brands-liquid-iodine

And this is the Selenium (Selenite) that many people on the B12 Deficiency Site use to good effect. Nutricology and Allergy Research are the SAME company! This supplement can be found at iHerb, among other online stores.
https://www.nutricology.com/selenium-solution-8-fl.-oz.-236-ml-liquid

There are several things that may have caused or contributed to this big shift for me. 1) Not long before I changed to the Genestra Iodine, I learned to take my minerals on an empty stomach AND without citric acid or Vit C before bed and first thing in the morning--although I later realized I had to take the iodine only in the morning because at night it caused insomnia. 2) In January-February of 2021, refeeding symptoms led me to take a higher dose of the Selenium than the 200mcg Greg recommends we titrated up to. I went slowly, observing symptoms, and reached just below 300mcg when the symptoms resolved.

I have held to that dose of selenium and will continue until I finish titrating up on the iodine in another few weeks. Once stabilized, I'll pause for about 4-6 weeks and redo my Thyroid numbers - TSH, Total T3 and Total T4; at that time I will also do a Hair Minerals Test put out by Doctor's Data as Greg likes to look at both to assess levels of the minerals and thyroid function at the same time.

I have never focused on Thyroid much, given my TSH was always in range, but looking back, I see that as far back as 2014, I was below range for T3 and have been all the years since. This may speak to why my start-up reactions are so noticeable...! A long time deficiency....