Transdermal B12 oils

[Johnmac]

What is the reason you would use the liquid B-12 transdermally instead of orally? Is it bad for the teeth like the teeth?

Much higher amount delivered, smoother delivery - very slow - & no rotting teeth.

 

[jess100]

Never any rashes while using the oils for 6 months or so. I hardly use much oil at all now. I switched back to daily injections a few months ago. I do better with the higher serum level achieved with injectable b12. My memory and word recall were getting worse on the oils, but much better since back on injections

Is it common to have the B-12 affect memory and word recall? Do others have that experience?

 

[jess100]

Much higher amount delivered, smoother delivery - very slow - & no rotting teeth.

Is the liquid also bad for the teeth? I know the sublinguals are.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Is it common to have the B-12 affect memory and word recall? Do others have that experience?

Hi yes B12 deficiency can cause short term memory problems, concentration/lack of focus, and a general fuzziness making simple processes like word recognition and simple mathematics and general decision making difficult. I also get changes of mood (irritability over nothing the main one).

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Is the liquid also bad for the teeth? I know the sublinguals are.

I guess it would depend on the other ingredients in the preparation. A lot of them contain organic acids (citric or malic acid etc) and some contain sugars (fructose glucose maltodextrin etc). Straight b12 won't rot your teeth but may cause local reactions due to other metabolic processes you may have a block or deficiency for. Sublingual for me would cause very sore gums with skin shedding every day (like the dead skin from a blister but in your mouth ...gross I know). The transdermal oils have a similar effect on my skin (rash, blistering), although talking to Greg this is a very small proportion of the people he treats so you may be fine.

 

[garyfritz]

Sorry to hear the oil didn't work for you, @Athene*. How much did you use? Some of us need more than others. I used three doses per day for two years, sometimes four. (I recently dropped down to 1-2 per day after starting an anti-mercury supplement regimen: 1000iu vit E, 50mg zinc, 4*1000mg vit C, 4*100mg magnesium. I actually stopped using B12 entirely for a few weeks. Further evidence that my problems are really mercury–based.)

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Just thought I would post my progress here. I was on a modified Fredd protocol before I started (creatine instead of sAMe and never added in TMG plus Niacinamide riboflavin, magnesium, selenium, calcium, potassium, vitamin c and d plus a multivitamin and mineral. I got myself up to 10mg sublingual mB12 and 1200mcg Methylfolate split into 3 doses during the day. This gave me what I call survival mode and allowed me to manage things still working full time and avoiding mostly everything else. I still have sock and glove constant numbness which I've had for 15 years way before my CFS onset in 2012/13.

I replaced the sublingual methyl with the hydroxy methyl oil at 1 squirt per day in the morning in October. This was a bit risky since I had no idea as to whether I could absorb the hydroxy at all. 1 squirt was approximately the same dose of methyl as I was taking sublingually (assuming @garyfritz calculations using 5% absorption vs 80% in the oil). I kept my methyl folate just the same as before.

First 2 weeks
Had a lot of weathering through symptoms (dizzy spells, nausea, irritability sleeplessness etc). But at the same time felt the benefit of having the slow stable trickle of B12 in my system as oppose to the morning sublingual dose. This was mainly noticeable in more stable cognitive and physical stamina across the day (less reliance on my folate top ups if that makes sense). I agree this seems to last around 6-8 hrs since I would notice a slump around 3-4pm in the afternoon.

Week 3-5
Histamine type skin reaction started to appear on my forearms where I applied the oil so I started applying elsewhere to try and avoid repeat application too often. All folate deficiency reactions (nausea etc) disappeared but sleep tended to be less on average. The slump in the afternoon still remained. I started introducing a 10 mg country life aB12 sublingual once per week on top of the oil and this seemed to have a beneficial affect. I started noticing that I was naturally doing more and my stamina threshold seemed to be higher (say 25%).

Week 6-8
Histamine reaction update from Greg to say that this rare (great! Love being so unique). He checked all my supplements and suggested I drop down the Niacinamide and active b6 and look at increasing iron. I've upped the oil dose to 2 squirts one morning the other before I go to bed. So far this is only a couple of weeks but it feels a lot better. My sleep seems to be improving now and I definitely feel like my stamina is less fragile. I have replaced some of my individual b vits with b right complex starting today which has some biotin as well so hopefully this saves me some money and also may help the rash problem. Greg also suggested I may have a block utilising b2 since I was taking in excess of 200mg per day which should be miles more than I need. I will give in and get the 23&me test done this Xmas to see if this shows up anything. I am skeptical on this but trying to keep an open mind since I know a lot of people on PR keep mentioning it (and they have a Christmas sale on...bizarre since you may discover something you might not want to know).


Overall the oil is a lot better for me than sublingual so and I will continue trying this. My nerve damage is likely to be a long time healing. Greg advised this may take years to reverse peripheral neuropathy and that damage to brain could be more like 20 years to fix especially as I'm over 40. It makes sense for me to try and achieve a therapeutic dose that aids healing as opposed to using all the b12 up on living. I suspect a long journey is ahead but this feels right. I plan to make an appointment with my gp and get some regular blood tests (including homocysteine) every 3 months to try and monitor any improvement. I will post more when I have it (good or bad).

 

[garyfritz]

Congratulations on your progress!!

1 squirt was approximately the same dose of methyl as I was taking sublingually (assuming @garyfritz calculations using 5% absorption vs 80% in the oil).
But at the same time felt the benefit of having the slow stable trickle of B12 in my system as oppose to the morning sublingual dose.

Actually if I remember right, Freddd's estimate of sublingual absorption was more like 2-3%, and I think I remember seeing the same figure in a research paper. Yes, one big benefit of the oil is the slow steady delivery as opposed to the spikier results with sublinguals or even injections. SC injections absorb slowly, but supposedly the oil diffuses in through your skin over the course of 8 hours.

Histamine type skin reaction started to appear on my forearms where I applied the oil so I started applying elsewhere to try and avoid repeat application too often.

What type of skin reactions? I noticed some minor breakouts -- small red bumps, that kind of thing -- about the time I first started using the oil. That cleared up after a while (a few months maybe?) though similar breakouts do come and go occasionally. No idea if they're actually caused by the oil or not.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Hi @garyfritz . First of all thanks for all your comments on this thread reading all the accounts here has really helped. The rash was raised red swollen bumps between 2 and 15mm all over the area where I applied the oil. Not as raised as a mosquito bite or nettle rash but that sort of thing. Itches like mad and gets worse with heat. Eventually all of my upper arm and forearm on both arms was affected. What is weird is that it takes around 2 weeks of applying for the rash to appear. My arms are nearly healed now after avoiding application for 3 weeks Just some dry eczema left, so I may just operate a rotation system. Greg reckons I may not be utilising b2 to get rid of histamine, or that it is excess Niacinamide. It would be good if this is just a temporary thing. I don't want to take an antihistamine on top of everything else. It's definitely the oil doing it ...you can see my finger marks where I've rubbed the oil in as red rash on my arm. The delay in the rash appearing makes me think this is a delayed biochemical reaction from the methyl b12 rather than anything in the oil itself. I got a similar reaction from the sublinguals (red raw and skin coming away in my mouth every morning). Perhaps I need to just let the b12 run its course for a while and see if it settles down. Red rash arms with a bit more of a life I will take, especially if I can end up moving boulders like @John Mac

 

[garyfritz]

Since you react badly to the oil and to sublinguals, it sounds like you have some kind of adverse reaction to B12 itself. I've never heard of that. Greg had no insights on that, I take it? Have you tried different types of B12, e.g. hydroxy?

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Since you react badly to the oil and to sublinguals, it sounds like you have some kind of adverse reaction to B12 itself. I've never heard of that. Greg had no insights on that, I take it? Have you tried different types of B12, e.g. hydroxy?

Yes I thought that too. Interestingly I don't get a reaction from the adenosylb12 sublingual, although I only use this once a week. Greg has come up with a couple of methylation start up theories and of course it could be my long term carbamazepine prescription. After reading a little more on carbamazepine I've found that long term use of this is a disaster for methylation (depletes b12, folate, b6 and biotin). This means I have Potentially been under methylating since a child and may have some long term issues as a result. I will try and get my GP to test histamine as well to see if I can start measuring levels as I treat myself. I've looked and looked to see if I can find something to explain it but i am stumped. I am hopeful that after a few months the rash may just go away like you describe? If it is methylation start up issues then it makes sense that once I am methylation properly then I should be able to bring histamine levels down (providing I don't have a b2 or any other block). that is assuming they are high in the first place which hopefully the doctor can test me for. The alternative is to manage this in another way to reduce histamine (methionine supplement ?) I'm guessing at the last one. It sounds like you have transformed your energy level over the last few years and have managed to drop the dose now. How are you doing on the lower dose? Do you think your liver reserves are topped up yet?

 

[garyfritz]

I don't think I fit the standard model here. (In my very first post I said I didn't think I had CFS/ME.) I originally landed here because I had nasty problems that were miraculously helped by B12, and this seemed to be The Place for B12 expertise. But I tried variations of Freddd's protocols and never felt a thing, except from B12.

I never had the typical set of CFS symptoms. So I didn't really transform my energy level -- I just was able to get my unpleasant symptoms (agitation, fasciculations, RLS during the day; whole-body fingernails-on-chalkboard and nonspecific "feel BAD" sensations, nightmarish mental state, hours of seizure-like twitching thrashing during the night) under control. Sublinguals helped, but the oil worked much better.

My current working theory is that my B12 hunger is caused not by CFS or methylation problems (in spite of my "interesting" collection of SNPs), but by mercury poisoning. Too many things point in that direction to ignore it. One of them is that B12 is protective against mercury and/or mercury destroys B12. I don't think I "topped up" my liver -- I was taking a triple dose of oil for 2 years with no improvement, then within a week or two of starting the anti-mercury supplements (listed above), my need for B12 abruptly dropped. Nothing else (besides B12) has had effects like that in 4 years of experimentation.

So I'm preparing to get some expensive/painful dental work to rid myself of the mercury in my mouth, then I plan to start a possibly-multi-year mercury-detox program. If my voracious need for B12 is indeed caused by mercury (as well as a bunch of other symptoms that so far haven't been helped by B12), that's the only solution.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Ah ok perhaps I misread it. Sounds like you are making progress though to get on top of your symptoms. I wish you luck with it and the dentist bills !

 

[alicec]

What is the reason you would use the liquid B-12 transdermally instead of orally?

Much better absorption.

 

[Athene*]

Sorry to hear the oil didn't work for you, @Athene*. How much did you use? Some of us need more than others. I used three doses per day for two years, sometimes four. (I recently dropped down to 1-2 per day after starting an anti-mercury supplement regimen: 1000iu vit E, 50mg zinc, 4*1000mg vit C, 4*100mg magnesium. I actually stopped using B12 entirely for a few weeks. Further evidence that my problems are really mercury–based.)

I was up to 4 sprays per day, @garyfritz I'm doing much better the last few days since adding in a second injection with my second large folate dose of the day. Then with dose 3 & 4 of folate (smaller doses) I use sublingual b12. The timing is essential for me. The problem was that I keep forgetting I need to make sure I have lots of b12 around for each folate dose, otherwise I get into methyl trap. I need tons of b12 as well as folate - don't know whether it's my MTHFR & multiple MTRR snps, but I have pernicious anemia too (undiagnosed for years). Glad you found something that works for you. I was prescribed hydroxo b12 by a doctor and stayed on it for a few years during which I seriously declined, but doctor insisted I continue with it because of reduction in MCV blood test. When I saw @Freddd talking about methylcobalamin being the only form that really works for neurological damage, and how hydroxo can lower MCV but do nothing else, I decided to get my own methylcobalamin and eventually the doctor agreed to prescribe it. I'm so glad I stopped the hydroxo and went on the Fredd Protocol. And slowly picking up again now, after stupidly stopping injections last year and switching to oils. Within a few months I was back where I started and that nearly made me give up, so I've lost valuable healing time, but it is what it is...

 

[Athene*]

Is it common to have the B-12 affect memory and word recall? Do others have that experience?

Yes, eventually, after a long time of being b12 deficient, memory and cognitive function declines. I hadn't got to that stage but I had begun to have word recall issues, which was frightening. I don't anymore, thankfully.

 

[jess100]

My current working theory is that my B12 hunger is caused not by CFS or methylation problems (in spite of my "interesting" collection of SNPs), but by mercury poisoning. Too many things point in that direction to ignore it. One of them is that B12 is protective against mercury and/or mercury destroys B12. I don't think I "topped up" my liver -- I was taking a triple dose of oil for 2 years with no improvement, then within a week or two of starting the anti-mercury supplements (listed above), my need for B12 abruptly dropped. Nothing else (besides B12) has had effects like that in 4 years of experimentation.

Can you say which things lead you to suspect mercury poisoning? Have you found a dentist who is on board with you about removing fillings (without subjecting you to more mercury)?

 

[garyfritz]

Can you say which things lead you to suspect mercury poisoning? Have you found a dentist who is on board with you about removing fillings (without subjecting you to more mercury)?

Yes, I have a local (1 hour away) dentist who follows the IAOMT safe-removal protocols. I hope to start the process next month.

A number of things make me suspect mercury...

• I have about 8-10 symptoms that are common for mercury-toxic people. That made me suspicious, but that alone wasn't enough to motivate me to do the dental work.
• I've had ample opportunities for mercury exposure: All the standard childhood vaccinations, back when everything contained thimerosal. 12-14 amalgam fillings in my baby teeth, about 8-9 currently. Played with elemental mercury, held it in my hand, etc in school. Parents used mercurochrome antiseptic on every skinned knee and cut finger. Broken mercury thermometer & fluorescent bulbs in my house.
• A number of symptoms flared up badly in 2012-2013. A few months ago I realized I lost a filling about that time. No doubt it was degrading and shedding mercury into my mouth for months before it fell out, so I was getting a nasty dose of mercury just about the time my symptoms flared.
• After that flare-up I discovered B12 almost miraculously controlled most of the symptoms. B12 protects against mercury and mercury destroys B12. Greg (b12oils) could never explain my voracious need for B12 -- but he does not believe in mercury poisoning so he doesn't consider that as a possible cause.
• Alpha lipoic acid (ALA) is the main mercury chelator in the Cutler protocol. They warn strenuously against taking ALA while you still have amalgams in your mouth -- it can dump a lot of mercury into your system and cause serious damage. Especially if you take it only once or twice a day. Well about 2-3 months after first hearing about Cutler, several of my symptoms flared up worse than I'd ever had them, and B12 didn't help. Thinking back, I realized I'd started a new Life Extension multivitamin a month before -- and it turned out the LE supplement contained ALA, so I was getting a dose 2x a day. I stopped taking the LE and the symptoms vanished within 48 hours.
• As I said earlier, I tried variants of Freddd's protocol with zero results. Only B12 affected my symptoms -- until I tried the anti-mercury protocol, which (together with reduced doses of B12) pretty much eliminated the symptoms.

None of those would convince me by itself. But taken together....

 

[Eastman]

Sorry to hear the oil didn't work for you, @Athene*. How much did you use? Some of us need more than others. I used three doses per day for two years, sometimes four. (I recently dropped down to 1-2 per day after starting an anti-mercury supplement regimen: 1000iu vit E, 50mg zinc, 4*1000mg vit C, 4*100mg magnesium. I actually stopped using B12 entirely for a few weeks. Further evidence that my problems are really mercury–based.)

My anti-mercury supplement regiment is a bit different, consisting of methylation, garlic, selenium, zinc and magnesium.

 

[garyfritz]

My anti-mercury supplement regiment is a bit different, consisting of methylation, garlic, selenium, zinc and magnesium.

Does that work well for you?

Where does it come from? It's similar to Cutler's regimen, with magnesium and zinc.

BTW many mercury-toxic people are "thiol sensitive," meaning they don't tolerate foods well that have lots of thiols in them. (The thiols are a chemical structure that bonds to mercury in an uncontrolled manner, dragging it out to cause more damage.) And garlic is a very high-thiol food.