Transdermal B12 oils

[CCC]

reporting back for a final conclusion on my oil trial.

I have tried the methyl/adeno mix and did not see any more improvement than what I was getting with sublingual. Maybe like a 10% improvement over the sublingual, if even. Then again, if you are doing the Fred protocol, and don't want to rot your teeth, this is a good option.

Also, overall the Fredd protocol gave me about 15% more energy, which is OK but really not much when you are bed riddent.

One thing we found in going from the B12 sublingual to the B12 oil was that it FELT like the sublinguals gave more energy, but really it was just that wonderful spike. Something like the hit of that first coffee in the morning.

The B12 oils gave a smoother and longer-lasting experience.

That said, we did both for a while: as much as two slurps of adenosyl/menthl B12 oil in the morning plus any number of adenosylB12 sublinguals later in the day. We did this for months.

We're now on one slurp of adenosyl/methyl B12 oil and two slurps of straight methylB12 oil - both applied in the morning - and no more sublinguals.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Hi
This is my first post here, but I have been lurking for a few months. Thanks to this thread and others, I have had some success with the Fredd protocol and have recently moved from 10mg sublingual methyl B12 to the hydroxyl/methyl B12 oils. Thanks to all for posting here. I can certainly agree that Greg at B12 oils has really been helpful and has kindly interpreted my Oat results for me. I am aLost constantly amazed at how much cognitive time people invest here. I'm into my 4 th week using the oil and have noticed similarly to others that the dose is far more potent. I am not brave enough to drop my carnitine or Methylfolate just yet. I do have a question. Have others noticed some sores appearing where they apply the oil? These have appeared after 2 weeks of applying the oil and can only really be described as a raised rash that then turns to eczema type rash? I was wondering whether anyone else has had this and if so whether this is temporary? I would post a photo but we have only just met so seems a little forward. I'm from the uk by the way.

 

[Athene*]

Hi
This is my first post here, but I have been lurking for a few months. Thanks to this thread and others, I have had some success with the Fredd protocol and have recently moved from 10mg sublingual methyl B12 to the hydroxyl/methyl B12 oils. Thanks to all for posting here. I can certainly agree that Greg at B12 oils has really been helpful and has kindly interpreted my Oat results for me. I am aLost constantly amazed at how much cognitive time people invest here. I'm into my 4 th week using the oil and have noticed similarly to others that the dose is far more potent. I am not brave enough to drop my carnitine or Methylfolate just yet. I do have a question. Have others noticed some sores appearing where they apply the oil? These have appeared after 2 weeks of applying the oil and can only really be described as a raised rash that then turns to eczema type rash? I was wondering whether anyone else has had this and if so whether this is temporary? I would post a photo but we have only just met so seems a little forward. I'm from the uk by the way.

Never any rashes while using the oils for 6 months or so. I hardly use much oil at all now. I switched back to daily injections a few months ago. I do better with the higher serum level achieved with injectable b12. My memory and word recall were getting worse on the oils, but much better since back on injections

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Thanks for replying @Athene. Sorry the oils haven't worked out for you. I am still hopeful that the oil will be better for me than the sublingual. (Rash permitting) If you don't mind me asking, what levels of serum b12 are you targeting? It's just that after I saw the gp he pretty much said that I was on my own with the b12 but I might try and get him to retest my bloods for b12 folate ferritin etc. Greg reckons my levels are too low so hopefully I can persuade them to retest. It would be good to have a therapeutic level to target. Last test I was 228 before I started supplements so this is low but obviously not enough for them to be worried (despite my numb fingers and toes)

 

[Athene*]

Thanks for replying @Athene. Sorry the oils haven't worked out for you. I am still hopeful that the oil will be better for me than the sublingual. (Rash permitting) If you don't mind me asking, what levels of serum b12 are you targeting? It's just that after I saw the gp he pretty much said that I was on my own with the b12 but I might try and get him to retest my bloods for b12 folate ferritin etc. Greg reckons my levels are too low so hopefully I can persuade them to retest. It would be good to have a therapeutic level to target. Last test I was 228 before I started supplements so this is low but obviously not enough for them to be worried (despite my numb fingers and toes)

I'm pretty much back on Fredd's Protocol now, along with ox bile and pancreatin for liver and gall bladder problems. So I'm up to 5mg injected methylb12 daily. (Fredd takes 30mg injectable, but I could never tolerate that much and I don't think I need that much). I found some of his posts detailing the serum levels (sorry can't find just now) achieved via various strength injectables for CSF penetration, so I felt safer using injections for neuroprotective reasons.

Some people need CSF level of penetration, not just body tissue penetration, and I seem to be one of them. The oils give a lower serum level, but a consistent one that slowly drip feeds into tissues. I can't afford both oils and injectable any more so I do two 2.5mg injections daily. I'm functioning better on that than I was on oils alone (I was using up to 4 sprays of oil daily).

At first I did well when I gave up injections and used oils only, but then gradually disimproved. I have multiple MTR & MTRR snps and lots of other homozygous snps...so it seems I need the higher serum level of b12 to stop neurological damage, and be able to walk around (though I still can't do much in the way of walking outside the house yet, I'm improving). I eventually became bedridden again on the oils alone within months of giving up injections.

You may do fine on the oils. Lots do. I would quite like to keep them in the background along with injections and may do that if finances improve.

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @arewenearlythereyet A serum of 228 would be too low in my opinion. In Japan they treat you if you go lower than 500 and a lot of people here say that 1000 would be a healthy level for an adult. I was different, which meant I went undiagnosed for decades - my serum was always very high (700s, 800s and up to >2000 on hydroxocobalamin injections) but on OAT testing, methylmalonic acid revealed a deficiency, so while it was high in my serum, it wasn't getting into my cells (because of my various polymorphisms, thyroid issues, b2 and other deficiencies). So I have to have methylcobalamin, and lots of it, as well as a myriad of co-factors (B vitamins, minerals etc etc - you'll read lots of similar stories here).

 

[Mel9]

Hi
This is my first post here, but I have been lurking for a few months. Thanks to this thread and others, I have had some success with the Fredd protocol and have recently moved from 10mg sublingual methyl B12 to the hydroxyl/methyl B12 oils. Thanks to all for posting here. I can certainly agree that Greg at B12 oils has really been helpful and has kindly interpreted my Oat results for me. I am aLost constantly amazed at how much cognitive time people invest here. I'm into my 4 th week using the oil and have noticed similarly to others that the dose is far more potent. I am not brave enough to drop my carnitine or Methylfolate just yet. I do have a question. Have others noticed some sores appearing where they apply the oil? These have appeared after 2 weeks of applying the oil and can only really be described as a raised rash that then turns to eczema type rash? I was wondering whether anyone else has had this and if so whether this is temporary? I would post a photo but we have only just met so seems a little forward. I'm from the uk by the way.

Does the product contain polyethylene glycol (PEG) or polypropylene glycol (Ppg)? Many are allergic to these.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I'm pretty much back on Fredd's Protocol now, along with ox bile and pancreatin for liver and gall bladder problems. So I'm up to 5mg injected methylb12 daily. (Fredd takes 30mg injectable, but I could never tolerate that much and I don't think I need that much). I found some of his posts detailing the serum levels (sorry can't find just now) achieved via various strength injectables for CSF penetration, so I felt safer using injections for neuroprotective reasons.

Some people need CSF level of penetration, not just body tissue penetration, and I seem to be one of them. The oils give a lower serum level, but a consistent one that slowly drip feeds into tissues. I can't afford both oils and injectable any more so I do two 2.5mg injections daily. I'm functioning better on that than I was on oils alone (I was using up to 4 sprays of oil daily).

At first I did well when I gave up injections and used oils only, but then gradually disimproved. I have multiple MTR & MTRR snps and lots of other homozygous snps...so it seems I need the higher serum level of b12 to stop neurological damage, and be able to walk around (though I still can't do much in the way of walking outside the house yet, I'm improving). I eventually became bedridden again on the oils alone within months of giving up injections.

You may do fine on the oils. Lots do. I would quite like to keep them in the background along with injections and may do that if finances improve.

Hi Athene, sorry for the delay responding and thanks again for your help. I'm so sorry this ended being a false trail for you and hope you get back to being stable soon. I feel your frustration. This whole thing is just such a rollercoaster. You seem to have learnt something from it so I guess that's progress? I have no clue as to my genes so this is something else for me to explore, although thanks to Greg he seems to have found a reason for my folate and b12 depletion....namely the long term carbamazepine prescription I've been on since a child (long time now). I will post something on a separate thread in case others have a similar prescription and haven't yet made a connection. I also suspect that I've been b12 low for a long time prior to me getting the sudden decline a few years back. It's funny how these threads lead to another avenue of research. If I wasn't the lab rat myself I would find the whole thing fascinating! Thanks again for your help and insight. Even if I end up being allergic to the oils (seem to be allergic to everything) at least this has lead to further avenues of research for me. I will persevere though for a while and post my progress here. I am definitely going to up my dose to 2 sprays since I am noticing a dropping off in the afternoon. I'll put up with raw arms if it helps. Looks positively lobster!.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Does the product contain polyethylene glycol (PEG) or polypropylene glycol (Ppg)? Many are allergic to these.

Hi @MeI9 thanks for the tip, I will check with Greg and see if this is the issue. They don't put much in the way of ingredients on the web pages. I seem to be allergic to most things nowadays and this does seem to be classic allergy symptoms. I'm putting the oil on different arms each day but I'm slowly running out of sore free patches of skin to use. Shame because the oil is better than sublingual for me.

 

[alicec]

I'm putting the oil on different arms each day but I'm slowly running out of sore free patches of skin to use. Shame because the oil is better than sublingual for me.

You can use any site with soft skin - abdomen, thighs, buttocks as well as inner arms.

As an alternative transdermal you could try a home-made application using liquid methylB12 and any body lotion or just plain oil that you know you tolerate.

Just put a blob of lotion in the palm of the hand, add the B12 and mix well with a finger, then apply to skin.

This product is 5 mg/ml and 1 ml is roughly 20 drops. Assume roughly similar absorption to the transdermal oil to work out how much to start with.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

You can use any site with soft skin - abdomen, thighs, buttocks as well as inner arms.

As an alternative transdermal you could try a home-made application using liquid methylB12 and any body lotion or just plain oil that you know you tolerate.

Just put a blob of lotion in the palm of the hand, add the B12 and mix well with a finger, then apply to skin.

This product is 5 mg/ml and 1 ml is roughly 20 drops. Assume roughly similar absorption to the transdermal oil to work out how much to start with.

Ahh yes I remember reading about bluebonnet. This is really useful thanks I might give this a try if this doesn't improve. I already make my own magnesium oil ( can't imagine why anybody would buy this) There is a joke somewhere in there about sore buttocks but I will refrain

 

[Johnmac]

I've been on the adenosyl/methyl oil since March, & my CFS is 85% gone. It's actually been 85% gone since mid-year.

I am still highly susceptible to sugar (I have a crash of several days post-sugar, alcohol or processed carb ingestion, for some reason - with no initial high). But the energy improvements when I watch my diet (most of the time) are great.

The only other time I have crashed was when I was carting rocks and trees around my property - some of which weighed as much as me - for weeks at a time. Greg thought that may be a little excessive for a 65-year-old, & could have drained me of B12.

I have a daughter with many mental symptoms who improves when on the B12 & slides when she forgets to dose regularly; & who hasn't made the correlation. If there were a product you could strap or stick on the skin, which delivered the dose independently of the volition of the patient, that would be great.

 

[garyfritz]

@Johnmac, if you can be a pack beast for weeks at a time - at 65!! - you must be doing pretty well. Good on ya!

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac, if you can be a pack beast for weeks at a time - at 65!! - you must be doing pretty well. Good on ya!

Thanks Gary. I guess so. I have to take it a bit quieter, which I don't like much.

I just asked Greg about my crash from overwork. He said it would have depleted my B2, & thereafter my B12:

"It takes about 5 years to drain the liver of B12 and iron, so I would suspect it may take something like that to restock, even with the oils as delivery."

 

[garyfritz]

Hm. Interesting. 2 years ago, Greg told me it could take "as much as a year" to restock depleted resources. He must have changed his mind...

 

[Johnmac]

Hm. Interesting. 2 years ago, Greg told me it could take "as much as a year" to restock depleted resources. He must have changed his mind...

Yep maybe. And worth noting the iron bit IMO. He says the normal ranges are way too low, & indeed they are.

 

[Athene*]

Interesting. He told me I ought to feel better within a few months. I find that curious because I was more debilitated than either you @Johnmac or @garyfritz mentioned you were. I was bedridden for years then couch ridden. About 20 years altogether. I guess 'better' is different from 're stock'.

When I stopped the injections and substituted the oils I returned to being bedridden within a few months. Back on injections and I'm able to get out and about, but anything more than a 15minute walk right now crashes me for a week. Still, it's better than being bed/couch ridden and I can do housework now, which sounds deadly boring, but I'm thrilled to keep the house clean! Even better, i can read again and am not having word loss in conversation.

Wow, @Johnmac - impressive activity levels there - good for you!
And in a way I'm glad to hear about the five year thing - it means there's hope for me yet, and hopefully for many others here. And maybe then I can rely on the oils? Perhaps some of us might need more than oils to restock though the oils might then work for maintenance...Maybe you guys were caught before your stores were empty? I found old hospital records going back 20 years where my MCV was raised. Of course, nobody paid any attention to it unfortunately.

 

[Johnmac]

Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear the oils didn't work for you @Athene*, & I hope I wasn't to blame for leading you up a blind alley.

Did you email Greg with your progress (lack of) & any questions? Did he have an explanation?

Yes, the oil does work for some of us. I seem to be pretty good. Actually I hit my 85% recovery several months ago & haven't gained any more since...but I'm not complaining. Maybe that's because I insist on carting rocks & tree trunks around.

No idea about the "levels", tho there do seem to be such things: I recall autopsy studies of AD brains, which were all low in B12, for example.

Interesting. He told me I ought to feel better within a few months. I find that curious because I was more debilitated than either you @Johnmac or @garyfritz mentioned you were. I was bedridden for years then couch ridden. About 20 years altogether. I guess 'better' is different from 're stock'.

When I stopped the injections and substituted the oils I returned to being bedridden within a few months. Back on injections and I'm able to get out and about, but anything more than a 15minute walk right now crashes me for a week. Still, it's better than being bed/couch ridden and I can do housework now, which sounds deadly boring, but I'm thrilled to keep the house clean! Even better, i can read again and am not having word loss in conversation.

Wow, @Johnmac - impressive activity levels there - good for you!
And in a way I'm glad to hear about the five year thing - it means there's hope for me yet, and hopefully for many others here. And maybe then I can rely on the oils? Perhaps some of us might need more than oils to restock though the oils might then work for maintenance...Maybe you guys were caught before your stores were empty? I found old hospital records going back 20 years where my MCV was raised. Of course, nobody paid any attention to it unfortunately.

 

[Athene*]

Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear the oils didn't work for you @Athene*, & I hope I wasn't to blame for leading you up a blind alley.

Did you email Greg with your progress (lack of) & any questions? Did he have an explanation?

Yes, the oil does work for some of us. I seem to be pretty good. Actually I hit my 85% recovery several months ago & haven't gained any more since...but I'm not complaining. Maybe that's because I insist on carting rocks & tree trunks around.

No idea about the "levels", tho there do seem to be such things: I recall autopsy studies of AD brains, which were all low in B12, for example.

No, not your fault @Johnmac
I was fed up of stabbing myself with a needle every day so I really wanted to try the oils. Greg's been really helpful in many ways, but he's pretty much stuck with me, I'm afraid. He keeps saying I need to get b2 into me, but I'm taking both normal riboflavin and sublingual (r5p). I've started to work on other limiting factors/refeeding syndrome as per @Freddd protocol, but am on pretty much everything he's included in his protocol, except for vit D and calcium (though I eat plenty of cheese).

I can't manage vitamin D or boron or calcium because they all cause hypercalemia symptoms within a day or two (constant peeing, thirst, sweats). It seems to be linked to low potassium. I might try transdermal vitamin D in the hope that it self-regulates like sunshine vitamin D on the skin. I'm sure I need more D because I hardly ever get out and it gets dark here now at 3.30pm anyway. I'm really hoping when the transdermal D arrives, I can take it without the hypercalcemia/low potassium symptoms...If you happen to know anything about this it'd be great (or anybody on the thread)...
I can manage tons of magnesium with no problem...

Good to know you're doing well - at least one success story to hang on to!

 

[jess100]

You can use any site with soft skin - abdomen, thighs, buttocks as well as inner arms.

As an alternative transdermal you could try a home-made application using liquid methylB12 and any body lotion or just plain oil that you know you tolerate.

Just put a blob of lotion in the palm of the hand, add the B12 and mix well with a finger, then apply to skin.

This product is 5 mg/ml and 1 ml is roughly 20 drops. Assume roughly similar absorption to the transdermal oil to work out how much to start with.

What is the reason you would use the liquid B-12 transdermally instead of orally? Is it bad for the teeth like the teeth?