Transdermal B12 oils

[Gondwanaland]

Does copper absorb well transdermally, anybody know?

I guess so

 

[Gondwanaland]

DH felt exhausted as well after the last time I rubbed MB12 on his lower back.

I gave him electrolytes and he got low BP

 

[Sherpa]

I have been using the Adenosylcobalmin / Methylcobalmin spray from B12Oils.com for just over one week.

My initial experience with the B12 oils product has been very positive - with a few transient 'start up' type symptoms.

The first day I squirted a dose onto my arm at about 8 a.m. and went into work. I had one of the best work days ever. I experienced neurological brightening... cars on the road sparkled, sky looked beautiful, my computer monitor looked crisp & colorful. My aches and malaise melted away and my energy level seemed higher - I took on every work task and errand with gusto... like my pre-CFS self. My mood improved - I started to think about it would be fun to make some social plans or attend some events which I don't think in about in a chronic fatigue state. I was surprised at how much "better" and more consistently the oil delivers B12 than Enzymatic B12 / Country Life / Seeking Health sublingals. The sublinguals only seem to work for 1 to 2 hours max. And you always have to think about them, put sugar / acids in your mouth, and suck them so slowly that it SUCKS. Sublinguals suck.

At the end of my work day (around 4 p.m.) my 'B12 deficiency' type symptoms started lightly returning. I felt some light aching and some "blah" depressed thinking. By 9pm this increased and I felt really depressed, achy and neurologically 'blurry.' I took some MeCbl/AdCbl sublinguals and it helped me relax some and I was able to fall alseep. I bolted awake at 1 A.M. with muscle jerking, thrashing and tingling all over . I figured it was the "low potassium" described on this forum and drank ~500mg of Potassium Gluconate - and it actually made me feel worse. I felt terrible and hungover the next day.

The next day I did some research and learned the insomina, muscle twitching and tingling can be a side effect of MAO A dysfunction (I'm MAO A R297R +/+). It is not a symptom of the oil - it is a side-effect of neurological awakening with a genetic dysfunction that can't handle "full speed" yet.

A couple days later I tried B12 oils for the second time and I felt a satisfying, symptom-free relief for about 7 hours. Then I could feel it wearing off and symptoms coming back, like coming down off a drug. I craved another spray. I took a medicine dropper, unscrewed the bottle, and dropped 3 drops on my skin as a partial dose. This helped some. I bolted awake, twitching and tingling again.. but recognized it as MAO A - not potassium. I took one drop of oil on my skin and got back to sleep with little issue.

After about 4 days on the oil, I started to feel unpleasant inflammation, ahedonia & depression that would not respond to ribose or electrolytes, but I eventually recognized this as methylfolate insufficiency . I took a small dose of methylfolate and was grinning and dancing to music (!) an just over an hour later. Everything looked bright, sounded crisp and felt wonderful.

After using the oils for 5 or 6 days, my body seems to be adjusting to it. I don't feel the 'come down blues' 6-8 hours after my dose... nor do I awaken at night. I take B12 Spray about 8 a.m. before work and I seem to feel fine until bedtime. When I wake up the next day, I feel an "afterglow" of B12 energy. When I combine this time-release B12 oil with a couple caps of time-release methylfolate in the form of Jigsaw Magnesium - I'm getting very positive, even support for my methylation cycle. My body feels like its making more neurotransmitters and producing glutathione -and I feel like a big part of the puzzle might be falling into place.

I'm getting an energy lift but not the dramatic "supercharge" I was hoping for (I likely need L-carnitine & CoQ10) but I am feeling much more clear, more calm, more capable and less achy.

I will report back after more experience with B12 Oils.

 

[garyfritz]

That sounds awesome, @Sherpa!! Congratulations!!!

I have somewhat similar experiences. I never noticed any "brightening," possibly because I wasn't suffering as badly as you to start with, but it relieved the achy/agitated/RLS/etc/etc symptoms I had. I apply a dose in the morning, and generally that lasts me throughout the day. I may sometimes notice some RLS or some achiness/etc in the evenings but usually I'm OK. At bedtime I apply TWO doses, and that usually gets me well through the night. (I should experiment with backing off to 1 at night, but I feel so much better that I hate to mess with it! "If it ain't broke...") If I wake up with twitching/thrashing/agitation, I generally do another full dose in the night. (Interesting that you're getting good night-time relief with just a few drops...) A few times (usually after eating a ton of deep-dish pizza == lots of bread == lots of folic acid) the oil didn't help, but 400mg of methyl folate did the trick.

I was surprised at how much "better" and more consistently the oil delivers B12 than Enzymatic B12 / Country Life / Seeking Health sublingals. The sublinguals only seem to work for 1 to 2 hours max. And you always have to think about them, put sugar / acids in your mouth, and suck them so slowly that it SUCKS. Sublinguals suck.

Yes!! The oil is SOO much better than sublinguals, for me at least. No sugar/acid/etc in my mouth, AND I feel so much better than I did on sublinguals. The steady reliable long-lasting delivery of B12 is hugely superior to sublinguals.

I'm very interested in your observations about MAO A. I'm also +/+ and I have very similar night-time issues. Can you expand on your understanding of what the MAO A is doing, and what we can do about it?

TIme-release methyl folate, eh? With 5-MTHF. I currently get 500mg/day magnesium in a cal/mag supplement, but if the time-release MF works better than the Solgar I've been taking (400mcg morning & night), I should look into it. Are you sure the MF is time-release, and not just the magnesium? But to replace the 800 mcg/day I'm taking now, I'd be getting 2000mg/day of magnesium, and it would cost about $80/mo. Ouch.

 

[Sherpa]

TIme-release methyl folate, eh? With 5-MTHF. I currently get 500mg/day magnesium in a cal/mag supplement, but if the time-release MF works better than the Solgar I've been taking (400mcg morning & night), I should look into it. Are you sure the MF is time-release, and not just the magnesium?

Yeah, time-release methylfolate + time release B12 (oil) = long lasting methylation support for around 8 hours. Yes, I am sure the Jigsaw has time-release methylfolate. The company reps emailed me and assured me the methylfolate is released slowly - and my own experience confirms this.

I'm finding that methylfolate has a very short half-life. I take it and feel awesome for about 3 hours, then I need more or feel bad. My initial experience with time release suggests that maybe (much?) lower doses are required in time release form. Having a slow, steady on hand at all times MIGHT be more efficient then having lots and then none. I don't have any evidence to support this - other than my taking 100mcg time release seems to get more milage than 200mcg regular.

MAO A requires B2 to work efficiently. If your MAO A homozygous and riboflavin deficient you may have problems. Tingling, insomnia and twitching...dry mouth can be sone. Here is a list of MAO Inhibitor side effects - some are the same as having a dysfunctional MAO A system. I was low in B2 and got improvements taking about 30mg per day of B2 in divided doses.

 

[garyfritz]

I have several of the MAOI side-effect symptoms, but I don't know if that's due to R297R.

I did a little digging and found this writeup. MAO A is supposed to be the "warrior gene," and people with hetero or homo R297R have lower MAO and are supposed to be "aggressive" and "prone to violence." Which is SOO not me. I'm calm and mellow. A friend once told me I was "so laid-back I was semi-comatose."

People with high MAO are prone to depression and suicide, hence the use of MAOIs as antidepressants. With ++ MAO A we have low MAO, so we seem to have our own natural antidepressants.

That article recommends taking pregnenolone or progesterone to raise MAO. I'm not thrilled with that idea, since I already have low testosterone.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa , would you please outline a protocol of your own? Very shortly, with just a sequence of supps to make methylation work for MAO-Aers? I want to have something to give to my dr, because I need a prescription to buy supps locally (currency conversion has risen by 35% from last year :thumbdown.

I can have anything compounded in sublingual form. My trauma with Mfolate was exacerbated b/c I had it in sublingual form by mistake, and took 2x as much as of what I thought I was taking

Just forgot to check what forms of carnitine are available here, gotta make a note to call and ask on Monday.

 

[Rand56]

That article recommends taking pregnenolone or progesterone to raise MAO. I'm not thrilled with that idea, since I already have low testosterone.

Your quote here got me interested in wanting to learn more about pregnenolone and progesterone's relationship with MAO activity. Idk if my simple mind can make any conclusions from this, but maybe there is some kind of balancing act going on with MAO depending upon the hormonal pathway.....

"Another contributing factor is progesterone’s effect on monoamine oxidase (MAO).3 Progesterone has been shown to increase MAO activity."

https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.c...ansmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

Now if you follow the other branch pathway of hormone synthesis from pregnenolone to DHEA, then onward to testosterone and estrogen, atleast from these studies, DHEA and testosterone decrease MAO activity....

DHEA in rats:

"The present study showed that DHEA treatment significantly decreased monoamine oxidase activity"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18307051

T in monkeys:

"High plasma testosterone concentrations attained at the end of the mating season were associated with relatively low levels of platelet MAO activity. When testosterone levels fell, platelet MAO increased significantly."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/824661

Now if any of this relates to humans, maybe the takeaway is, for anyone needing to increase MAO levels, progesterone would be a better choice to take rather than Preg?

I also wonder, if in part, raising T in those who need to raise T, some get an antidepressant effect from it because if they are susceptible to depression, it could be from excessive MAO activity, and raising T can lower MAO activity.

 

[Lou]

Just read the entire thread, very interesting. Seems for some of you it's been a highly successful means of re-attaining a more normal B12 status and it surprises me that more have not jumped onboard. Puzzling, too, that @Fredd has not entered the conversation.

Gary (thanks for starting this thread), I recall Adeno/methyl has worked best for you, but do you think that holds for most who've trialed the oils?

 

[MegHurley36]

I am looking for a very good, pure-ish lol), Mb12. I am extremely sensitive and have sooo many folate and B12 blocks it is not funny. MTR MTRR MTHFD MTHFR DHFR you name it, over half are compound het. So, I do NOT want to ake a cyan methyl B12 as I have of course, mercury toxicity. Any ideas? I am looking through all the posts, and see methyl b12 on the ingredients of the products recommended, but I need one that is safe. Any ideas folks? I tried Lynchs multi, and his multi w out b12 and had the most horrific headache forr 2 days I was taking Folniic acid btw, and now stopped and I was told to stop as I have the FUT2 genes mutated and very obviously blocked as well. TIA for any info. The only thing I am taking except food, is Black Bear Spray Edeno/Hydroxo B12

 

[Sunshine smile]

I'm trialing them too.

I have found the customer support very helpful as well.

Thanks so much for sharing about the B 12 oil. I have autonomic dysfunction and I give myself a B 12 injection every other week and I do the sublingual every day. This sounds fantastic thanks again for your help I'll try

 

[Sherpa]

I have been on the B12 Ice (Adenosylcobalmin + methylcobalmin w/ Vitamin D3 and Tetrahydro-curcumin) for about 5 days. It was noticeably more potent than the B12-only formula, had more stimulating kick. The first day I tried the B12 Ice oil I forgot I'd taken 5000 I.U of D3 in a gelcap before, and I felt a bit "wired" for most of the day. The D3 in the spray seems like its better absorbed than oral. After a few days I've adjusted to it and it feels normal and good- rather than stimulating. So far I have been able to drop the curcumin & D3 out of my daily pills.

I am currently taking a B12 Ice spray in the A.M. and then a partial dose (couple drops with a medicine dropper) of MeCbl+AdCbl oil in the evening to help keep my methylation cycle rolling. I feel like the main effect of the oil is about about 7 or 8 hours. I can live with one dose a day but feel better with a touch more B12 in the evenings.

What about sweat, swimming and bathing?

Can I take this stuff and go to the beach, bike ride or to hot yoga... or is that kind of a waste?

p.s. anyone else get slightly pink urine sometimes (excess B12 being flushed out)?

----

@MegHurley36 If wanted MeB12 I'd try this Methylcobalmin oil . However, I like the AdB12 + MeB12 mixture a lot.

 

[garyfritz]

@Sherpa, do you happen to know the dosages of adeno, methyl, D3, & THC in the Ice?

What specific benefit are you using the curcumin for? Anti-inflammatory?

Greg at B12oils would be the one to ask about sweating &etc. I know that the oils can wash off your palms 20-30 minutes after applying -- the pink shows in the sink. But I think within a fairly short time -- maybe an hour or so? -- it's absorbed into the skin enough that swimming shouldn't bother it. Not sure about sweating.

I have never seen pink urine, even with my 3x/day dosing. Freddd has mentioned that you can "titrate the toilet bowl" to get an idea for how much extra B12 you're getting, so obviously it can happen (at least with the injections Freddd uses), but it doesn't happen for me.

 

[Sherpa]

@Sherpa, do you happen to know the dosages of adeno, methyl, D3, & THC in the Ice?

What specific benefit are you using the curcumin for? Anti-inflammatory

I believe its B12 2.5mg, THC 2.5 mg, D3 1000 I.U.

Ive been taking curcumin to help lower systemic inflammation that comes with MTHFR / high homocysteine / stress. I have had higher levels of inflammation my whole life. I'm not sure if the main PEM symptoms in get...the 'Friday night flu'...feeling brain fogged and miserable after an active stressful work week...is inflammation or something else.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I believe its B12 2.5mg, THC 2.5 mg, D3 1000 I.U.

Ive been taking curcumin to help lower systemic inflammation that comes with MTHFR / high homocysteine / stress. I have had higher levels of inflammation my whole life. I'm not sure of the main PEM symptoms in get...the 'Friday night flu'..feeling brain fogged and miserable after a stressful work week...are inflammation or something else.

Please keep us updated on how curcumin is working for you. It is a MAOI.

 

[Seven7]

@Sherpa Be careful with THC since is believed to lower NK cell (bad for CFS).

 

[Sherpa]

@Inester7 where can I read more about this? A quick web search doesn't show anything that jumps out about tetrahydrocurcumin lowering NK cells.

 

[picante]

Please keep us updated on how curcumin is working for you. It is a MAOI.

Thanks, Izzy, for all the "vocabulary" lessons: Monoamine oxidase inhibitor (had to look that up).

@Sherpa, I'm glad to hear the oil with the D3 is working, because:

¡hey, everybody! -- I still have an unused bottle of the AdB12/MeB12 + 3000 IU Vit. D3. I can't use it because I found out I was overconverting D3 to 1,25 D. Presumably that is why I did not feel very well on the oil. I have a partially used bottle of the same, and a partially used bottle of MeB12 + Vit. D3. Message me if you're interested in buying any of these. I'll throw in free shipping to the US or South America.

 

[picante]

OK, now I have an update on this:

Report on taking liquid B12 transdermally:
Complementary Prescriptions Methylcobalamin
https://www.pureformulas.com/methylcobalamin-4-oz-by-complementary-prescriptions.html

I still don't know whether I was absorbing more MeB12 or less with the liquid, as compared to the Enz. sublingual tab. But I'm feeling so much better that I'm not in any mood to experiment with it again.

We had some debate (mostly head-scratching) about the absorption, with @ahmo thinking absorption might have been higher.

BUT when I started trying her "asking your body" technique, here is what I got:
Is this product partially degraded to Hydroxycobalamin? -- YES

More than 50% degraded? -- YES
More than 60% degraded? -- YES
More than 70% hydroxyB12? -- NO
​

I did not quite believe these answers until a friend double-checked them. (He checks his cerebro-spinal fluid pulse, holding the bottle.) Without telling him anything, I asked the same questions, he got the same answers.

The light bulb went on then: this is why my DH feels really great taking the stuff, and I got tired and couldn't get my minerals balanced. DH is sailing now (he doesn't have ME/CFS). He's got two COMT +/+ and MAO A + and MTHFR A1298C +/+.

 

[ahmo]

@picante, really interesting results. I've had the opposite experience: I've just switched to a different liquid B12, as the one I'd started with was no longer available. Now using Bluebonnet 5000mcg solution. After 2-3 days I began having hair loss. Seems this is stronger than the one I used initially. I added 200mcg folate and the hair loss stopped. this AM, 3rd day after I increased folate, there looks to be excess hair in my brush, so I might need to increase a bit more. So sensitive....