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I heard curcumin was ill advised for people with histamine issues. Not sure if it has to do with methylation. Might want to experiment with leaving curcumin out
Transdermal B12 oils
- Thread starter garyfritz
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I have been using the Adenosylcobalmin / Methylcobalmin spray from B12Oils.com for just over one week.
My initial experience with the B12 oils product has been very positive - with a few transient 'start up' type symptoms.
The first day I squirted a dose onto my arm at about 8 a.m. and went into work. I had one of the best work days ever. I experienced neurological brightening... cars on the road sparkled, sky looked beautiful, my computer monitor looked crisp & colorful. My aches and malaise melted away and my energy level seemed higher - I took on every work task and errand with gusto... like my pre-CFS self. My mood improved - I started to think about it would be fun to make some social plans or attend some events which I don't think in about in a chronic fatigue state. I was surprised at how much "better" and more consistently the oil delivers B12 than Enzymatic B12 / Country Life / Seeking Health sublingals. The sublinguals only seem to work for 1 to 2 hours max. And you always have to think about them, put sugar / acids in your mouth, and suck them so slowly that it SUCKS. Sublinguals suck.
At the end of my work day (around 4 p.m.) my 'B12 deficiency' type symptoms started lightly returning. I felt some light aching and some "blah" depressed thinking. By 9pm this increased and I felt really depressed, achy and neurologically 'blurry.' I took some MeCbl/AdCbl sublinguals and it helped me relax some and I was able to fall alseep. I bolted awake at 1 A.M. with muscle jerking, thrashing and tingling all over
. I figured it was the "low potassium" described on this forum and drank ~500mg of Potassium Gluconate - and it actually made me feel worse. I felt terrible and hungover the next day.
The next day I did some research and learned the insomina, muscle twitching and tingling can be a side effect of MAO A dysfunction (I'm MAO A R297R +/+). It is not a symptom of the oil - it is a side-effect of neurological awakening with a genetic dysfunction that can't handle "full speed" yet.
A couple days later I tried B12 oils for the second time and I felt a satisfying, symptom-free relief for about 7 hours. Then I could feel it wearing off and symptoms coming back, like coming down off a drug. I craved another spray. I took a medicine dropper, unscrewed the bottle, and dropped 3 drops on my skin as a partial dose. This helped some. I bolted awake, twitching and tingling again.. but recognized it as MAO A - not potassium. I took one drop of oil on my skin and got back to sleep with little issue.
After about 4 days on the oil, I started to feel unpleasant inflammation, ahedonia & depression that would not respond to ribose or electrolytes, but I eventually recognized this as methylfolate insufficiency. I took a small dose of methylfolate and was grinning and dancing to music (!) an just over an hour later. Everything looked bright, sounded crisp and felt wonderful.
After using the oils for 5 or 6 days, my body seems to be adjusting to it. I don't feel the 'come down blues' 6-8 hours after my dose... nor do I awaken at night. I take B12 Spray about 8 a.m. before work and I seem to feel fine until bedtime. When I wake up the next day, I feel an "afterglow" of B12 energy. When I combine this time-release B12 oil with a couple caps of time-release methylfolate in the form of Jigsaw Magnesium - I'm getting very positive, even support for my methylation cycle. My body feels like its making more neurotransmitters and producing glutathione -and I feel like a big part of the puzzle might be falling into place.
I'm getting an energy lift but not the dramatic "supercharge" I was hoping for (I likely need L-carnitine & CoQ10) but I am feeling much more clear, more calm, more capable and less achy.
I will report back after more experience with B12 Oils.
My initial experience with the B12 oils product has been very positive - with a few transient 'start up' type symptoms.
The first day I squirted a dose onto my arm at about 8 a.m. and went into work. I had one of the best work days ever. I experienced neurological brightening... cars on the road sparkled, sky looked beautiful, my computer monitor looked crisp & colorful. My aches and malaise melted away and my energy level seemed higher - I took on every work task and errand with gusto... like my pre-CFS self. My mood improved - I started to think about it would be fun to make some social plans or attend some events which I don't think in about in a chronic fatigue state. I was surprised at how much "better" and more consistently the oil delivers B12 than Enzymatic B12 / Country Life / Seeking Health sublingals. The sublinguals only seem to work for 1 to 2 hours max. And you always have to think about them, put sugar / acids in your mouth, and suck them so slowly that it SUCKS. Sublinguals suck.
At the end of my work day (around 4 p.m.) my 'B12 deficiency' type symptoms started lightly returning. I felt some light aching and some "blah" depressed thinking. By 9pm this increased and I felt really depressed, achy and neurologically 'blurry.' I took some MeCbl/AdCbl sublinguals and it helped me relax some and I was able to fall alseep. I bolted awake at 1 A.M. with muscle jerking, thrashing and tingling all over
. I figured it was the "low potassium" described on this forum and drank ~500mg of Potassium Gluconate - and it actually made me feel worse. I felt terrible and hungover the next day.The next day I did some research and learned the insomina, muscle twitching and tingling can be a side effect of MAO A dysfunction (I'm MAO A R297R +/+). It is not a symptom of the oil - it is a side-effect of neurological awakening with a genetic dysfunction that can't handle "full speed" yet.
A couple days later I tried B12 oils for the second time and I felt a satisfying, symptom-free relief for about 7 hours. Then I could feel it wearing off and symptoms coming back, like coming down off a drug. I craved another spray. I took a medicine dropper, unscrewed the bottle, and dropped 3 drops on my skin as a partial dose. This helped some. I bolted awake, twitching and tingling again.. but recognized it as MAO A - not potassium. I took one drop of oil on my skin and got back to sleep with little issue.
After about 4 days on the oil, I started to feel unpleasant inflammation, ahedonia & depression that would not respond to ribose or electrolytes, but I eventually recognized this as methylfolate insufficiency
. I took a small dose of methylfolate and was grinning and dancing to music (!) an just over an hour later. Everything looked bright, sounded crisp and felt wonderful.After using the oils for 5 or 6 days, my body seems to be adjusting to it. I don't feel the 'come down blues' 6-8 hours after my dose... nor do I awaken at night. I take B12 Spray about 8 a.m. before work and I seem to feel fine until bedtime. When I wake up the next day, I feel an "afterglow" of B12 energy. When I combine this time-release B12 oil with a couple caps of time-release methylfolate in the form of Jigsaw Magnesium - I'm getting very positive, even support for my methylation cycle.
My body feels like its making more neurotransmitters and producing glutathione -and I feel like a big part of the puzzle might be falling into place.I'm getting an energy lift but not the dramatic "supercharge" I was hoping for (I likely need L-carnitine & CoQ10) but I am feeling much more clear, more calm, more capable and less achy.
I will report back after more experience with B12 Oils.
I'm also +/+ MAO-A R297R, and I have sleep issues. So we may have a pattern there. I don't generally "bolt awake," though. What's much more common for me (if I get behind on my B12) is that I gradually wake up. I might even feel just fine for a minute or two. Then the twitches and the agitation start, and once that starts, I know I'm not going back to sleep until I take some B12.
I used to have much worse problems, where I would wake up with extreme twitching/thrashing, almost like a seizure. I would tear the bed apart because I couldn't stop thrashing. I'd also be in a nightmarish state of mind, really nasty. Before I got my B12 under control I could be in that nightmare/seizure state for 3-4 hours. Now I just take some B12, my body goes "aahhhhh" (often within a minute or two), and next thing I know it's hours later.
I also sometimes need methyl folate. I take 400mcg in the morning and 800mcg at bedtime, but sometimes I'll wake up with agitation & twitches and the B12 doesn't knock it out. Usually in those cases 400 or 800mcg of methyl folate (on top of the methyl & adenosyl B12 I've already taken) will do the trick.
I used to have much worse problems, where I would wake up with extreme twitching/thrashing, almost like a seizure. I would tear the bed apart because I couldn't stop thrashing. I'd also be in a nightmarish state of mind, really nasty. Before I got my B12 under control I could be in that nightmare/seizure state for 3-4 hours. Now I just take some B12, my body goes "aahhhhh" (often within a minute or two), and next thing I know it's hours later.
I also sometimes need methyl folate. I take 400mcg in the morning and 800mcg at bedtime, but sometimes I'll wake up with agitation & twitches and the B12 doesn't knock it out. Usually in those cases 400 or 800mcg of methyl folate (on top of the methyl & adenosyl B12 I've already taken) will do the trick.
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My awakenings are not joined by any pain. Sometimes I slowly zoom out of sleep, but usually I just wake up and then go back to bed. Before I started a methylation protocol I was at worst waking up every 1.5 hours and then falling back to sleep pretty quick (under half an hour). I sometimes had trouble falling asleep initially.
Methylation seems to have pushed back the time of my first awakening. It also seems to have reduced the number of wakenings.
Do you have histamine issues? It seems like histamine was keeping me up. If I ate too much fish/alcohol/etc. at dinner it did seem to make it worse. I'm not sure how else methylation would help sleep so fast. I think its necessary to help build melatonin, but I'd think that would take hours to do. Any ideas on how it might be helping you?
I have only been taking b12/methylfolate/potassium during the day. With my methylfolate mostly before noon. I do feel sleepier during the day so I am thinking of trying to take b12 later in the day.
Methylation seems to have pushed back the time of my first awakening. It also seems to have reduced the number of wakenings.
Do you have histamine issues? It seems like histamine was keeping me up. If I ate too much fish/alcohol/etc. at dinner it did seem to make it worse. I'm not sure how else methylation would help sleep so fast. I think its necessary to help build melatonin, but I'd think that would take hours to do. Any ideas on how it might be helping you?
I have only been taking b12/methylfolate/potassium during the day. With my methylfolate mostly before noon. I do feel sleepier during the day so I am thinking of trying to take b12 later in the day.
I don't know. I've always wondered, because I seem to itch a lot. I'm fairly allergic to mosquito bites, and benadryl helps that a lot. I also occasionally have a strange condition called urticaria -- hives triggered by getting chilled. (Or, bizarrely, by orgasm !!) That kind if reaction seems kinda histamine-ic to me.
Alcohol can mess up my sleep a bit, but I've theorized that's because metabolizing the alcohol uses a lot of methyl groups. Or B12, I forget which. If I take more B12 I'm generally OK.
Nope. I'm not certain that my benefits from B12 are necessarily the result of improved methylation, but that seems logical. B12 acts almost like a soporific for me, in that I go to sleep quicker and stay asleep more soundly. But that may be because I have some imbalance that causes the agitation & twitches, and the B12 addresses that imbalance somehow?
Alcohol can mess up my sleep a bit, but I've theorized that's because metabolizing the alcohol uses a lot of methyl groups. Or B12, I forget which. If I take more B12 I'm generally OK.
Nope. I'm not certain that my benefits from B12 are necessarily the result of improved methylation, but that seems logical. B12 acts almost like a soporific for me, in that I go to sleep quicker and stay asleep more soundly. But that may be because I have some imbalance that causes the agitation & twitches, and the B12 addresses that imbalance somehow?
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I have several of the MAOI side-effect symptoms, but I don't know if that's due to R297R.
I did a little digging and found this writeup. MAO A is supposed to be the "warrior gene," and people with hetero or homo R297R have lower MAO and are supposed to be "aggressive" and "prone to violence." Which is SOO not me. I'm calm and mellow. A friend once told me I was "so laid-back I was semi-comatose."
People with high MAO are prone to depression and suicide, hence the use of MAOIs as antidepressants. With ++ MAO A we have low MAO, so we seem to have our own natural antidepressants.
That article recommends taking pregnenolone or progesterone to raise MAO. I'm not thrilled with that idea, since I already have low testosterone.
I did a little digging and found this writeup. MAO A is supposed to be the "warrior gene," and people with hetero or homo R297R have lower MAO and are supposed to be "aggressive" and "prone to violence." Which is SOO not me.
I'm calm and mellow. A friend once told me I was "so laid-back I was semi-comatose." People with high MAO are prone to depression and suicide, hence the use of MAOIs as antidepressants. With ++ MAO A we have low MAO, so we seem to have our own natural antidepressants.
That article recommends taking pregnenolone or progesterone to raise MAO. I'm not thrilled with that idea, since I already have low testosterone.
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What happens if you eat fermented foods? Or meats that have been sitting around in the refrigerator for a while?
Can you have them for dinner and sleep the same?
Can you have them for dinner and sleep the same?
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I've been taking curcumin forever. Seems like it should be fairly poisonous for me with my histamine problems and MAO-A defect. Anyone have any experience/opinions on how curcumin should effect MAO-A/high histamine?
I was hoping to eventually start taking curcumin again someday as it seems like a great supp. Perhaps not for me...
I was hoping to eventually start taking curcumin again someday as it seems like a great supp. Perhaps not for me...
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How did you know you needed more B1? I have had pain in the crown of my head which I heard was a B1 deficiency sign, but it didn't seem to correlate with a B1 need (supplementing didn't seem to change that symptom)
I don't eat that many fermented foods, but I don't recall having any problems after eating sauerkraut or similar. Sometimes I will age a steak in the refrigerator, and I didn't notice any problems with that either. But I wasn't looking for any, so...
Update on my DIY transdermal B12:
A happy serendipity. I was running out of Bluebonnet B12 drops, and the company said they'd be available 2nd week of November. So I decided to try what others have remarked on, using B12 tablets. Oh happy day.Country Life 5000 mcg MB12 tablet, split in half, and left to sit overnite in a small blob of body creme. All dissolved in the AM, no need to crush the tablet. And maybe it happens quickly, but overnight works for my schedule. I put it into the cap from a bottle, covered it w/ a larger cap, so no light.
This new method is brilliant. Now there's just a small blob to rub into skin, instead of the very runny palm-full I had before. And, it's even cheaper. Bluebonnet $23 for 59x 5mg doses; Country Life $15 for 60x 5mg doses.
A happy serendipity. I was running out of Bluebonnet B12 drops, and the company said they'd be available 2nd week of November. So I decided to try what others have remarked on, using B12 tablets. Oh happy day.
Country Life 5000 mcg MB12 tablet, split in half, and left to sit overnite in a small blob of body creme. All dissolved in the AM, no need to crush the tablet. And maybe it happens quickly, but overnight works for my schedule. I put it into the cap from a bottle, covered it w/ a larger cap, so no light.This new method is brilliant. Now there's just a small blob to rub into skin, instead of the very runny palm-full I had before. And, it's even cheaper. Bluebonnet $23 for 59x 5mg doses; Country Life $15 for 60x 5mg doses.
That is awesome @ahmo!!! Congratulations on your discovery. Glad to hear it works so well for you.
I've had really outstanding results with the Australian oil, much better than sublingual, but it's not perfect by any means. I may have to give this a try. But I would want to mix in some dibencozide too. I didn't do well with pure methyl B12 from B12oils. I do much better with the ado/methyl mix, which is 3:1 ado:methyl.
So it may be too soon to ask, but does this delivery method seem to dribble the B12 into your system gradually over time, instead of spiking it for a short time like sublinguals do? I think that's the biggest benefit for me. The oils keep my levels steady for many hours, so I never have a crash.
I've had really outstanding results with the Australian oil, much better than sublingual, but it's not perfect by any means. I may have to give this a try. But I would want to mix in some dibencozide too. I didn't do well with pure methyl B12 from B12oils. I do much better with the ado/methyl mix, which is 3:1 ado:methyl.
So it may be too soon to ask, but does this delivery method seem to dribble the B12 into your system gradually over time, instead of spiking it for a short time like sublinguals do? I think that's the biggest benefit for me. The oils keep my levels steady for many hours, so I never have a crash.
@garyfritz Someone else was just asking me about taking B12 through the day. Since I've been at this low dose, I only take it once, in the morning. Maybe you've actually hit on something, maybe it has to do with the delivery. I've just assumed that it was about having reached a level of saturation that I now only need to maintain.
It would be just as easy for you to add whatever amount of AdB12 you want. The first time I tried, I crushed the tablet. Discovering that not even that is needed for it to dissolve is super!
It would be just as easy for you to add whatever amount of AdB12 you want. The first time I tried, I crushed the tablet. Discovering that not even that is needed for it to dissolve is super!
I have seen frequent references to saturation, from Freddd and elsewhere, and maybe it works that way for other people. But for the most part that doesn't seem to apply to me. I've been taking nearly 5mg adenosyl and 2mg methyl per day (injected equivalent) for a year. But if I fall behind on my 3x/daily doses, I start to feel lousy within a day. I don't seem to be building up much of a saturation level or any significant reserves.
I believe the reason the oil works so well for me is that it delivers a healthy dose, and it does it gradually throughout the day. I have a steady supply as the oil seeps through my skin so my levels don't crash like they did with sublinguals. Your skin-cream delivery system would probably do the same.
I believe the reason the oil works so well for me is that it delivers a healthy dose, and it does it gradually throughout the day. I have a steady supply as the oil seeps through my skin so my levels don't crash like they did with sublinguals. Your skin-cream delivery system would probably do the same.
I am new to this thread so forgive me for not trawling through it all but is there any mention here or on another thread of magnesium oil, recommended to me this week by my ME specialist doctor? Who also treated me with daily B12 plus magnesium injections on a daily basis for the first year of my illness 8 years ago. We now Skype or email as he has moved to another country.
No, there's no mention of it in this thread. There is a search function, so you can find a number of places where it did get mentioned.
I used magnesium oil years ago. It's very different to the B12 oil. For one thing, it's not really oil -- it just feels oily.
I used magnesium oil years ago. It's very different to the B12 oil. For one thing, it's not really oil -- it just feels oily.
I did try the search facility for magnesium but it keeps bringing up only this thread.
@lookinglass My own experience with mg oil is that I needed far too much of it to continue on, even though I was making my own oil from mg chloride flakes. I returned to mag malate tablets.
Go to the front page of forums, scroll down to bottom. In the last box, there's a link for google search. I typed "magnesium oil" into it, got many references. The google search is more comprehensive than the search box on each page.
Go to the front page of forums, scroll down to bottom. In the last box, there's a link for google search. I typed "magnesium oil" into it, got many references. The google search is more comprehensive than the search box on each page.
Huh. That's odd. If I search for magnesium or magnesium oil it returns bunches of threads. Many of which are just talking about magnesium.
But try searching for "magnesium oil" INCLUDING the quotes, and it will look for messages containing that exact string.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?search/24075919/&q="magnesium oil"&t=post&o=date
@ahmo beat me. The quotes also work very well in the Google search she mentioned. And in fact you can do your own Google search for any particular site. Just go to the google.com page and search for something like
"magnesium oil" -sitehoenixrising.me
Bother. The forum insists on "helping" me with a smilie. The is supposed to be colon p. So to limit the search to site xyz.com, use -site:xyz.com.
But try searching for "magnesium oil" INCLUDING the quotes, and it will look for messages containing that exact string.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?search/24075919/&q="magnesium oil"&t=post&o=date
@ahmo beat me.
The quotes also work very well in the Google search she mentioned. And in fact you can do your own Google search for any particular site. Just go to the google.com page and search for something like"magnesium oil" -site
hoenixrising.meBother. The forum insists on "helping" me with a smilie. The
is supposed to be colon p. So to limit the search to site xyz.com, use -site:xyz.com.
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