The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[ariel]

4-6 very ripe bananas
1 cup frozen blueberries thawed and drained - optional
6 eggs
1 tsp vanilla essence
2-3 tsp apple cider vinegar
1/4-1/2 cup extra virgin coconut oil (quantity depends a bit on the quality of the flour - could substitute olive or macadamia oil or melted butter)
1 tsp sea salt
1 cup green banana flour
3/4 cup coconut flour
2 tsp baking soda

Mash bananas and beat in liquid ingredients, or puree together in blender or with wand.
Put dry ingredients into a sifter and add to wet mix in several lots, mixing well in between. Again depending on the flours, you might need to add another tbsp. or so of either type if mix is too liquid.
Fill large muffin cups and bake at 180degC for 30 min.
Makes 12 (they freeze well).
I don't have a sweet tooth so add no sweetener. You could add 1/4 cup or more of honey.

Yum. Sounds delicious. Thank you!

 

[ahmo]

@melamine Thanks for this. I'd read others of gestalt's posts, don't think I've seen this.

 

[Maia]

Just had a nip (actually a rather large-ish nip!) of vodka. Feeling warm and toasty at least...!

Speaking of alcohol: it's spring, and dandelions will soon show up, which reminds me: what about a few drops of dandelion tincture (alcohol extract), to help with the detox and ameliorate oxidative stress? Dandelion root is full of inulin too and can be eaten, both roots and leaves.

 

[Sidereal]

I've decided recently I was getting nowhere with my current approach so I figured I'd try bolus dosing of prebiotics. (DO NOT do this if you're new to gut modification and you have ME/CFS and therefore have a very leaky gut. You could get really, really sick - like, endotoxemia sick. The only people I've seen who could do this from the start are fundamentally healthy people with some symptoms but not ME/CFS.) I've done quite a bit of groundwork over the past 12 months to be able to tolerate this (so far).

@whodathunkit spoke about bolusing helping her overcome an impasse with her SIBO and other symptoms and it would appear I'm experiencing something similar. I can't take large quantities of RS, green banana flour, inulin etc. without getting awful joint and lymphatic pain so I can't bolus those but there are three prebiotics I've tried that do not cause joint pain or any other symptoms other than mild die-off (sleepiness, hypotension, aches): beet root, plantain leaf and aloe vera.

Taking small cautious doses of these in the past caused unbearable "blood sugar" type symptoms where I'd have to eat constantly throughout the day so I had to quit. These last couple of days I shifted gears and took 5 g of beet root, 2 g of plantain and 1.5 g of aloe vera powder (spread out throughout the day) and there's been slight but so far manageable hypoglycaemia.

My autonomic symptoms and mood have vastly improved. I have a resting tachycardia (85-90) and POTS (these days standing heart rate tends to be around 120 in the morning and 100 in the evening). My blood pressure is on the low-ish side. After two days of taking the fibres at that dose, my sitting heart rate this morning was 64 and standing was 74, shocking numbers I have not seen in years. BP was 105/66 with no real postural changes. (Keep in mind morning readings are always worse due to overnight blood volume depletion.) These prebiotics seem to also be dissolving my gout crystals. I have almost full mobility again and only traces of pain left in the troublesome joints. There is some mild lymphatic pain in legs but no muscle pain. In fact, my regular ME pain is not there.

I'm not taking any other drugs or supplements except LDN, magnesium and potassium but I've been taking those for a long time.

The only downside so far is mild hypoglycaemia (could be subjective; I haven't measured my BG), sleepiness (pleasant tiredness rather than that sickly fatigue we're all intimately familiar with), and occasional lightheadedness. Who knows, sometimes negative effects take a few days to hit so I am fully prepared for this to go south. I should say I achieved pretty good POTS control last summer with RS and inulin (standing heart rate came down to about 80-90 at the time) but then had a relapse in the autumn so yes, things can definitely stop working for no apparent reason.

 

[Maia]

I can't take large quantities of RS, green banana flour, inulin etc. without getting awful joint and lymphatic pain so I can't bolus those but there are three prebiotics I've tried that do not cause joint pain or any other symptoms other than mild die-off (sleepiness, hypotension, aches): beet root, plantain leaf and aloe vera.

I'm not taking any other drugs or supplements except LDN, magnesium and potassium but I've been taking those for a long time.

Let's look at it a bit: the difference is that beet root, plantain leaf and aloe vera are "real food" powders unlike RS, inulin which are purified fibers, with a high energy content, and a strong signalling factor for your immune system.They also contain different kinds of sugars. Your thoughts, Sidereal?

It also matters what else you normally eat.

My concern with oral magnesium supplementation is that it might interfere with the detox/fungi clearance, as Mg is an essential part of the microbial biofilm. So it could be that you are in fact feeding your "pathogen in its fortress".

 

[Sidereal]

Let's look at it a bit: the difference is that beet root, plantain leaf and aloe vera are "real food" powders unlike RS, inulin which are purified fibers, with a high energy content, and a strong signalling factor for your immune system.They also contain different kinds of sugars. Your thoughts, Sidereal?

It also matters what else you normally eat.

My concern with oral magnesium supplementation is that it might interfere with the detox/fungi clearance, as Mg is an essential part of the microbial biofilm. So it could be that you are in fact feeding your "pathogen in its fortress".

@Maia, I'm not sure whether real food vs fake powder is an issue because as we've seen on this thread before people like @anne_likes_red developed endotoxemia (fever, bedridden etc.) while merely consuming real food (citrus pectin from eating whole oranges with peel).

Certainly, as you say, the sugars in the products I am taking are vastly different from RS and inulin. Aloe contains acetylated mannan. Beet root pectin contains galacturonic acid which @Vegas informed me would help clear uric acid. He also suggested plantain. The thing is, I was unable to tolerate small doses of these whereas larger doses seem to be helpful.

Oral Mg gives me awful candida flare. I don't actually take Mg orally, only use Mg chloride skin spray.

 

[jepps]

Thank you for telling your experiences, @Sidereal. Happy to read, that you found fibres, you tolerate.

Only a thought, but could severe SIBO be the reason for high inflammation because of taking RS, banana flour and additionally FODMAP´s for inflammation with inulin, pectine and oligofructose? Beet root, plantain leaf and aloe vera are all fibres, that do not provoke SIBO or FODMAP´s.
It´s difficult to differentiate, how severe SIBO is. I am in a German RS-thread, where several with CFS make experiences with RS and prebiotics. One friend with severe SIBO (undiagnosed, but now she suspects SIBO) had severe symptoms with RS, and had to stop, another friend with severe SIBO (diagnosed SIBO and FODMAP´s) had also high inflammation and undigested stools with RS as well as with Inulin, pectine and oligofructose, but had success with reducing RS to 1/4 quantity in relation to slippery elm and glucomannan, psyllium and LAG.

 

[Maia]

@Maia, I'm not sure whether real food vs fake powder is an issue because as we've seen on this thread before people like @anne_likes_red developed endotoxemia (fever, bedridden etc.) while merely consuming real food (citrus pectin from eating whole oranges with peel).

Certainly, as you say, the sugars in the products I am taking are vastly different from RS and inulin. Aloe contains acetylated mannan. Beet root pectin contains galacturonic acid which @Vegas informed me would help clear uric acid. He also suggested plantain. The thing is, I was unable to tolerate small doses of these whereas larger doses seem to be helpful.

Oral Mg gives me awful candida flare. I don't actually take Mg orally, only use Mg chloride skin spray.

I would not call RS and inulin fake fibers, only purified, without the synergy. Also I would not compare to citrus pectin (it binds to galectin-3 which plays a role in neutrophil response to candida, among many other roles) so it's not so clear what happened to @@anne_likes_red.

The dose often matters, your experience is interesting.

Mg skin spray sounds OK.

 

[jepps]

The dose often matters
.

There is a difference between SIBO and SIFO (fungi overgrowth) regarding dosage and kind of prebiotic. Potato starch reduces fungi, but feeds bacteria. With high SIFO we can benefit of potato starch, as it reduces fungi. Reducing fungi with RS gives the healthy gut bacteria the chance to grow, when they are simultaneously fed with fibres.

When SIBO predominates, potato starch is counterproductive, as it feeds bacterial overgrowth. One can have a compromised gut for several reasons: fungi overgrowth, bacterial overgrowth, all of these infections can cause severe symptoms. But the kind of treatment varies.

 

[Sidereal]

I would not call RS and inulin fake fibers, only purified, without the synergy. Also I would not compare to citrus pectin (it binds to galectin-3 which plays a role in neutrophil response to candida, among many other roles) so it's not so clear what happened to @@anne_likes_red.

I wasn't at all comparing RS and inulin to citrus pectin in terms of chemical composition. I was using Anne's reaction to eating orange peel as an illustration that eating real whole foods does not necessarily mean good, at least not in ME/CFS where reactions to all kinds of foods can be severely negative.

 

[whodathunkit]

↑
Incidentally, to anyone interested in the blood sugar control angle of straightening out your gut, my first morning glucose this morning was 79. That's as low as it's ever been since first started monitoring it 6 - 7 years ago. Before today the lowest it's ever been was mid-80's.

Two and half months ago it was *179*.

Full disclosure: I've also been doing intermittent fasting for the last couple/few weeks...started that about the same time I started the bolus dosing. So that's probably helping blood sugar, too, but I credit a large portion of the improvement with addressing the gut via pre- and probiotics.

Any updates on this, @whodathunkit?

Not much, @Sidereal. As I noted in other posts, still not out of the woods yet. That's still the lowest it's been. In fact, most mornings it's still over 100, sometimes up to 120, which is kind of discouraging.

BUT...I also suffer from "Dawn Syndrome", where your sugars are typically higher in the morning than when you go to bed. I've had that problem for years. It's due to severe insulin resistance and probably some degree of liver dysfunction, both of which I'm working to correct. What time of the month it is also has an effect on sugars...correct progesterone levels really have a beneficial effect on blood glucose. I can frequently tell by how I feel during the day if I'm going to have high sugar the next morning. IMO a lot of it is about cortisol and probably has something to do with my poor, beleaguered old adrenals. Haven't put all the pieces together yet, though.

Not terribly worried about the Dawn Syndrome because my post-prandials and non-morning fasting numbers are very good. They've always been better than first morning glucose, anyway, but now they're normal. I'll be doing an A1C in another couple/few months to see where I really am with my efforts at getting rid of insulin resistance.

Overall, though, I'm kind of at a plateau right now. The honeymoon with RS is over, and the "long hard slog" is here. I've been taking enzymes to disrupt biofilms along with the RS and probiotics, and am feeling kind of...unsorted...now. Maybe candida/fungi/infection problems. I'll be trying Sanum that @jepps recommends for that. I may also drag out my Rife machine and try some more frequency therapy on myself. Haven't used that in several years but it seems to be fairly effective on microorganisms. Safe to say I'll be experimenting with a few things to try and sort myself. I may also try @Asklipia 's vodka therapy. Sounds like that is right up my alley.

I've also injured myself a couple of times in the past couple of months, due to over-exercising. Nothing serious at all, just dumb middle-age muscle strains (calf muscle and back, respectively), but enough to throw me out of commission with my new physical fitness routine for a couple weeks at a time. Which is also discouraging.

In the grander scheme of things I'm not doing badly, I guess, but I'm just tired of all the crap and mood is low. Today it's difficult to choose to see some things in a positive light, for sure.

Probably TMI. Sorry about that.

 

[Sidereal]

@whodathunkit, hope things pick up for you real soon. Might be worth dialling back on the RS and checking out other prebiotics.

 

[whodathunkit]

@whodathunkit, hope things pick up for you real soon. Might be worth dialling back on the RS and checking out other prebiotics.

Thanks, Side. In fact, I have diversified prebiotics and haven't been taking more than 2 tablespoons RS per day for a couple weeks. I've been trying to get much more prebiotic fibers from my food. Other supplemental fibers I want to add in, too. We'll see how that goes.

I also seem to be experiencing some increased inflammation, which is another discouraging thing. Minor little eczema patches popping up on my fingers and in the palm of my hands (which is a place I rarely get it). Red rash across the bridge of my nose seems to wax and wane. Today it all seems better but it may be right back tomorrow. I've had off-and-on eczema my entire life.

I'm thinking about re-reading this thread again and taking notes this time. I've forgotten at least as much as I remember about it. Maybe @adreno will get his synopsis after all.

 

[jepps]

Thanks, Side. In fact, I have diversified prebiotics and haven't been taking more than 2 tablespoons RS per day for a couple weeks. I've been trying to get much more prebiotic fibers from my food. Other supplemental fibers I want to add in, too. We'll see how that goes.

@whodathunkit, please do not take RS alone. You only feed certain kind of bacterias, which then can grow, and suppress others. 2 tbsp is much to much. My friend had so much inflammation with RS alone, and solved her inflammation with a ratio RS to fibers 1:4

 

[Maia]

I wasn't at all comparing RS and inulin to citrus pectin in terms of chemical composition. I was using Anne's reaction to eating orange peel as an illustration that eating real whole foods does not necessarily mean good, at least not in ME/CFS where reactions to all kinds of foods can be severely negative.

Is your experience maybe showing you the way: go with more beets (juice, fermented, etc)?

 

[Maia]

Not much, @Sidereal.

BUT...I also suffer from "Dawn Syndrome", where your sugars are typically higher in the morning than when you go to bed. I've had that problem for years. It's due to severe insulin resistance and probably some degree of liver dysfunction, both of which I'm working to correct. What time of the month it is also has an effect on sugars...correct progesterone levels really have a beneficial effect on blood glucose. I can frequently tell by how I feel during the day if I'm going to have high sugar the next morning.

Probably TMI. Sorry about that.

If you tolerate aloe mannans, and beets as well, perhaps you could try a tablespoon of honey before bed. Makes wonders on many levels.

 

[Maia]

Oh sorry, forget it. The previous message should go to @whodathunkit, and I messed it all up with @Sidereal's story. Sorry.

 

[whodathunkit]

If you tolerate aloe mannans, and beets as well, perhaps you could try a tablespoon of honey before bed. Makes wonders on many levels.

So...what's the connection between beets and honey? Just that they both have a lot of sugar? I don't seem to have any bad intolerances or allergies that I've uncovered yet...always been pretty lucky in that regard. Not particularly fond of beets, however. Or at least I wasn't when I was a kid.

 

[Maia]

So...what's the connection between beets and honey? Just that they both have a lot of sugar? I don't seem to have any bad intolerances or allergies that I've uncovered yet...always been pretty lucky in that regard. Not particularly fond of beets, however. Or at least I wasn't when I was a kid.

Ah, here you are: the connection is that they are both full of complex polysaccharides (not only simple sugars). And if you intend to increase real food prebiotic source, it is a good choice. Honey is a great prebiotic, actually.

 

[adreno]

Looks like NAG (and some other polysaccharides) are bad news if you have candida:

Microbiologica. 1985 Jan;8(1):85-99.

N-acetyl-D-glucosamine-induced morphogenesis in Candida albicans.

Cassone A, Sullivan PA, Shepherd MG.

Abstract
N-acetylglucosamine is a morphogenic effector in the human pathogenic yeast Candida albicans. Depending on temperature, N-acetylglucosamine induces yeast-mycelial conversion or chlamydospore formation. N-acetylglucosamine is also a carbon source for growth in the yeast form.

Germ-tube formation, i.e. the intermediary of yeast-mycelial conversion, is induced at temperatures in excess of 33 degrees C; at lower temperatures the yeast or the pseudomycelial form of the organism predominates. 2-Deoxyglucose, at concentrations which do not affect yeast growth, is a potent inhibitor of N-acetylglucosamine-induced germ-tube formation. N-acetylglucosamine suffices as both the inducer and the carbon sources for morphogenesis and both transcription and translation are required for the yeast to mycelial transition.

The metabolism of N-acetylglucosamine is essentially the same for yeast phase cells (28 degrees C) and germ-tube forming cells (37 degrees C): enzymes for N-acetylglucosamine uptake and catabolism are equally well induced by gene expression at 28 degrees C and 37 degrees C. During germ-tube formation, the chitin content and the activity of the regulatory enzyme chitin synthase increase.

Germ-tube formation in C. albicans can also be induced gratuitously by a number of N-acetylhexosamine derivatives (N-acetylglucosamine covalently linked to agarose, N-acetylmannosamine, hyaluronic acid, colloidal chitin, and mucin). These compounds are not taken up by the yeast cells and do not support growth which suggests that germ-tube formation is triggered by a cell-surface receptor mechanism.

It is proposed that, after binding to the receptor, N-acetylglucosamine produces an intracellular message which primes the cell for morphogenesis. This message would ultimately be responsible for the choice of the mode of growth, spherical versus apical, that is characteristic of yeast or mycelial form.

PMID:3883103