The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[ariel]

Yes I know! So many moments of random variables! Especially when I was really really sick I had no idea what was going on. Would basically just fall over or have to make my way to bed as quickly as possible because my heart and breathing and everything else was about to stop! So maybe I'm further along that you now as I feel pain in specific places.
You absolutely know best, so I'm sure your plan is perfect.
You could try just regular vit c. less like a bullet train.
And as painful as the headaches were with prescript assist, I would see it as a good thing too. Mostly because it is another sign of detoxing -- so here's me trying to sell coffee enemas again! -- but really they helped me so much -- they help the body to produce the ever elusive glutathione. But I will give it a rest. I know most people don't want to go there, I was absolutely the same, and I would never mention it to someone in my daily life. But truly when you are trying to get whatever is ailing you out, plus feel good for a moment, it's your answer.
good luck.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, ariel - just really hard to know what to do for the best. I just want to get back to some sort of baseline before I try anything new - and the pre/probiotics are top of my list.

I don't rule anything out - even coffee enemas!

 

[adreno]

See the comments in this post:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/gi-biohacking-basics-mild-havoc-or.html
"For any autoimmune arthritis, rash or joint aches, usually some gentle weeding whilest seeding at the same time. Perhaps it is possible to 'crowd' out the Kleb nasties with prebiotics + SBOs but I think it will depend on the condition of the gut. AS doesn't mean low white counts. All probiotics (except potentially L plantarum or Bifido) are contraindicated if the white count is low or a person is diagnosed with immunodeficiency."

Looks like it is indeed possible to crowd out klebsiella with prebiotics, at least in mice guts:

Translocation of Klebsiella sp. in mice fed an enteral diet containing prebiotics

 

[Asklipia]

I had said : We both found that the bad reactions we got from PS at the beginning are slowly disappearing. Slowly but certainly disappearing. This would mean that they were not due most probably to a Nightshade problem or a sulfur problem.

Not necessarily. Some glycoalkaloids are metabolized by the bacteria in your gut. It's entirely possible that your flora are now just robust enough and diverse enough to metabolize those trace glycoalkaloids for you. So, it's hard to really know for sure.

True, difficult to know for sure. However we never had any trouble with potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, bell peppers before. So I suppose this rules out nightshades problems. Or maybe not? Hard to know for sure, as the new bacterial balance might suddenly create a nightshade problem? Possible, but very likely no. Especially since the problem is disappearing. Has disappeared I could say. I write this because it would be a good thing to find out exactly why some people get such a bad reaction.
Has someone with a bad reaction made his own PS from real potatoes, to make sure there is no sulfur involved and found out if this was creating the problem?
When we are at the front of innovation in this, just a little extra ascertained fact would be nice.

 

[Ripley]

However we never had any trouble with potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, bell peppers before.

Oh.. Sorry. Didn't realize you never had nightshade problems before. Then for sure your reaction to PS had nothing to do with nightshade toxins. There are only trace amounts of nightshade toxins in PS and far more in a typical whole nightshade.

 

[Sasha]

Oh.. Sorry. Didn't realize you never had nightshade problems before. Then for sure your reaction to PS had nothing to do with nightshade toxins. There are only trace amounts of nightshade toxins in PS and far more in a typical whole nightshade.

That was a good prod to catch up on comments on the recent post on FTA about nightshade toxins not being water-soluble after all, and I saw this (I think this is you?):

http://freetheanimal.com/2014/07/groundbreaking-nightshade-starch.html#comment-631442

For those who are curious, here’s what I found on the amounts of glycoalkaloids (i.e. nightshade toxins) in potato starch.

From: Glycoalkaloid Concentration In By-Products Of Potato Starch Extraction As Measured By Matrix-Assisted Laser Desorptioniionization Mass Spectrometry

Starch, potato protein concentrate, and potato pulp were produced in order to determine the fate of endogenous toxic glycoalkaloids during potato processing. Potato protein concentrate was precipitated from potato fruit water using acid and heat. Glycoalkaloid concentrations were determined using matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization mass spectrometry. No correlation was observed between tuber protein concentration and yield of potato protein concentrate (r = 0.257). Glycoalkaloids could not be detected in starch extracted from tubers with a glycoalkaloid concentration of 6.6 mg/i 00 g (fwb). Dry potato protein concentrate and dry potato pulp produced from the same tubers contained 60 and 50 mg glycoalkaloid/100 g, respectively. the apparent partitioning of glycoalkaloids into the protein concentrate and pulp indicates toxicity might be a concern for these products, given that a maximum acceptable level of 20 mg glycoalkaloid/100 g is often cited for tubers.

However, there is some disagreement on what is the best way to measure glycoalkaloids.

It should be noted that more recent studies have shown < 4 µg/g glycoalkaloids in potato starch (Saito et al., 1990, Alt et al., 2005).

To put that in perspective, the average potato contains 8 mg. of solanine per 100 g of potato.

So, the detectable levels of glycoalkaloids should only be a problem for those who have trouble clearing glycoalkaloids from their bodies (i.e. nightshade intolerance).

Interestingly, your flora assist in the breakdown of glycoalkaloids in the body, so feeding your gut bugs with prebiotic fibers and getting the right flora in place can actually reduce one’s sensitivity to these glycoalkaloid toxins.​

 

[knackers323]

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't had any benefits at all Sasha. I wonder if you are taking any probiotics yet? Maybe you have 'empty zoo cages' as Dr Grace calls them.
From my understanding I think she recommends taking B Infantis and L plantarum for those severely immune compromised.
See the comments in this post:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/gi-biohacking-basics-mild-havoc-or.html
"For any autoimmune arthritis, rash or joint aches, usually some gentle weeding whilest seeding at the same time. Perhaps it is possible to 'crowd' out the Kleb nasties with prebiotics + SBOs but I think it will depend on the condition of the gut. AS doesn't mean low white counts. All probiotics (except potentially L plantarum or Bifido) are contraindicated if the white count is low or a person is diagnosed with immunodeficiency."
Also: "The safe species are few but perhaps the safest one is L plantarum as a single strain probiotic, or combined with B infantis which have been used in neonates (against necrotizing colitis), NICU, ICU, ventilator infections, pre- and post-surgery, cancer and chemotherapy."

In the same comments section she also notes that it is best to take Inulin/Fos and/or Green banana flour as the bifido species prefer that to potato starch.
"I really like g banana flour -- it has soluble fos and inulin and other oligo fibers which propel off pathogens that adhere to the small intestines and help them to be eradicated. Please consider it. Also FOS and inulins feed Bifidobacter more than RS can feed Bifido. We need Bifido -- it is a potent anti-pathogen protector in the gut. It competes for binding sites and helps to aggressively eliminate the more resistant and pathogenic strains that are left behind after rounds of antibiotics."

If you haven't already read it, this thread is really worth looking at:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/sulfite-sulfate-and-ammonia-questions.27211/
Vegas' posts are fantastic and he makes a very good case for B Bifidum as well as Infantis.

So right now I am thinking that the best way to proceed is to take B Infantis, B Bifidum, and L plantarum. And using either FOS/Inulin or G Banana flour for a while.
When that has settled in I will add the SBOs and other forms of RS like Larch AB. (or maybe start the Larch earlier as it seems important -- will see)

To my surprise I found the Natren B Infantis locally yesterday, and have the B Bifidum on order.
Tried making yoghurt for the first time last night with the Infantis. It is nearly 24 hours and looks like milk still. Hopefully it will still have the same effect though.

I still can't take more than 1 teaspoon of the potato starch. So making sure the right bacteria are there in the first place seems essential.
I probably need to do some weeding have started taking some oregano oil, not sure if I should add other things. Basically hoping that the Bifidos will do it for me.

If we have a dysbiosis of too much bad bacteria, will the PS feed these also or do only the good bacteria feed on it?

 

[ariel]

Looks like it is indeed possible to crowd out klebsiella with prebiotics, at least in mice guts:
Translocation of Klebsiella sp. in mice fed an enteral diet containing prebiotics

Oh perfect. So looks like Inulin/Fos plus the bifido's are a great combination.

 

[ariel]

If we have a dysbiosis of too much bad bacteria, will the PS feed these also or do only the good bacteria feed on it?

Hello
I'm pretty new at this myself, so please don't take my word for it! But that is the million dollar question, and no one really knows as yet. The theory is that it feeds the good bacteria which then crowd out the bad.
But ultimately it really depends on how bad your gut dysbiosis is, and what is actually in there. Probably the best way to proceed is read Dr Grace's posts
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.cz/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html

Her first recommendation is to get a stool test so that you know for sure what is in there.
Otherwise you need to do some 'weeding'. There are a bunch of suggestions there. For some that might be a parasite cleanse, for others detoxing metals, looking after the adrenals, etc. etc. For some it might simply be adding in the right probiotics. No one can really answer that question for you, it depends on what you have already done, how poorly you reacted to potato starch, and so on.
I don't have the money to do a stool test right now, so going with crowding out with various pre and probiotics. Also I've done a few things over the years like parasite cleanses and metal detoxes. Hopefully that will do something! If not I will get the test.

Good luck!

 

[ariel]

Someone was asking about acacia a little while ago.
I found this on Dr Grace's blog.
"Acacia is not a food I believe our ancestors commonly consumed, neither is the seed that psyllium is made from -- therefore it's been nixed out of the protocol in favor of more whole food substrates. Acacia is a gum as well and I believe there is research that may implicate it exacerbating lectin toxicity."
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html


Also, I couple of replies above that I found this recommendation for someone with MS, so it might be worth bearing in mind for those with CFS/ME.
"Consider a spectrum of fiber:
--inulin
--arabinogalactan
--glucomannan
--modified citrus pectin"

 

[Sasha]

Someone was asking about acacia a little while ago.
I found this on Dr Grace's blog.
"Acacia is not a food I believe our ancestors commonly consumed, neither is the seed that psyllium is made from -- therefore it's been nixed out of the protocol in favor of more whole food substrates. Acacia is a gum as well and I believe there is research that may implicate it exacerbating lectin toxicity."
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html


Also, I couple of replies above that I found this recommendation for someone with MS, so it might be worth bearing in mind for those with CFS/ME.
"Consider a spectrum of fiber:
--inulin
--arabinogalactan
--glucomannan
--modified citrus pectin"

I've been taking psyllium husk powder along with the PS, on Dr Grace's recommendation on FTA from the beginning of the year - so has she changed her position on it? Argh!

 

[Asklipia]

Her first recommendation is to get a stool test so that you know for sure what is in there.
...
I don't have the money to do a stool test right now, so going with crowding out with various pre and probiotics.

The problem with stool tests is that they may not be all that they are supposed to be.
Apart from being expensive.
See this for example.

 

[Sasha]

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html

I see that Tatertot Tim says in that post:

I managed to find a few papers that were reviewed by the National Institute of Health such as this one on SBOs and Immune Function. The article describes using SBOs to successfully treat Chronic Fatigue System [I assume he means 'Syndrome'] and cancers and they had "...proven successful in restarting the immune systems of persons with allergies, lung cancer and TB."

That link goes to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11365013

but there's no abstract.

I hadn't realised there were any trials of SBOs for ME/CFS.

Edit: Here's that paper (scroll down more than halfway to SOIL-BASED ORGANISMS IMPROVE IMMUNE FUNCTION: SHIFT CYTOKINE PROFILE FROM TH2 TO TH1)

http://www.keephopealive.org/report16.html

Edit: Just read it - it's anecdotal and only mentions one PWCFS (criteria unknown).

 

[ariel]

I've been taking psyllium husk powder along with the PS, on Dr Grace's recommendation on FTA from the beginning of the year - so has she changed her position on it? Argh!

!
ah well. though it probably isn't going to do you any harm...! maybe the opposite

 

[ariel]

The problem with stool tests is that they may not be all that they are supposed to be.
Apart from being expensive.
See this for example.

Well I guess that is not such a surprise afterall. I did loads and loads of tests when my health took a nose dive and they really didn't help much. Haven't done any since, so will give this one a miss too!

 

[Sasha]

[Accidentally posted this on the wrong thread earlier]

I was just watching this video interview with Prof. De Meirleir:

in which he says that in both Belgian and Norwegian patients, PWME have more Lactinofactor (Clostridium family) than normal (he says it has "multiplied tremendously" compared to controls) and less (beneficial) E. Coli. (It's all around the 5-minute mark.)

All this about the reliability or otherwise of the American Gut/uBiome tests and De Meirleir's findings has got me wondering about what is a rational approach to treatment. Get tested first (but where? how?)? Or just try things regardless? And what things? And why (given that we're PWME and might have issues other than most people trying RS/prebiotics/probiotics)? And how to interpret it when you get worse?

Just venting a bit of confusion. I'm wondering what pre/probiotics the ME specialists use, if any.

 

[Sasha]

@Valentijn mentioned that Prof De Meirleir prescribed her VSL#3, which I hadn't previously heard of. It contains:

Each packet of VSL#3 ( VSL 3 OR VSL3 ) contains 450 billion live lactic acid bacteria and bifidobacteria.

There are 8 different strains of beneficial bacteria which were specially selected for VSL#3), those are:
Streptococcus thermophilus
Bifidobacterium breve
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus paracasei
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus

Other ingredients include: Maltose and silicon dioxide. This product contains traces of gluten, soy, lactose and skimmed dehydrated milk.​

There doesn't seem to be much overlap between the species in this and in Prescript Assist, say:

Each 600mg capsule of Prescript-Assist™ contains a proprietary blend of Leonardite and the following microorganisms:​

Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.​

I'm wondering what the rationale is for taking one rather than the other. I see that the VSL contains the L. Plantarum and B. infantilis that people have been discussing here, while PA doesn't.

 

[Valentijn]

Just venting a bit of confusion. I'm wondering what pre/probiotics the ME specialists use, if any.

I'm completely lacking bifidobacterium, and KDM has me on VSL#3.

 

[Sasha]

I'm completely lacking bifidobacterium

That's pretty amazing!

What lab did he use for your test? Does it sequence your whole microbiome, like uBiome or the American Gut Project?

 

[Valentijn]

That's pretty amazing!

What lab did he use for your test? Does it sequence your whole microbiome, like uBiome or the American Gut Project?

RED Laboratories in Belgium. I'm not sure how it's done, actually The title is "Metagenomics Stool Analysis Report". It includes about 80-100 different bacteria. It's described at http://www.redlabs.be/red-labs/our-tests/dysbiosis-testing-msa.php :

. . . is based on 16s PCR amplification followed by high-throughput sequencing.