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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
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Sulfite/sulfate and ammonia questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joshi81, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    Hi i have to questions to ask to who knows the answers :)
    it's not much that i'm to this thing of methylation, i've just done the 23andMe test and i am waiting for the results..
    Anyway i made geentic test before and i know already i have a hetero mutation of MTHFR 2198 (while the 677 is normal) and im ethero fro CBS. I have low Homocisteine (just belowe the reference range) and it suits with the cbs mutation and the mthfr mutation because both cause lower homocisteine levels.

    So i know i will probably have to look in to the he high ammonia thing and the high sulfite/sulfate thing

    I'm already reading heart fixer and Yasko documents (also if it's so many things that sometimes i wuold like to fu*k it all off)
    Anyway the questions are:

    1. Where i have to measure my ammonia leve? in the blood or urine?
    2. I have to do it in a Lab (for blood i suppose yes) or there are strips also for ammonia testing? (i yes can u link me where to buy?)
    3. Why do i have to test sulfates level? i mean if i have a SUOX not working properly i could have a build up of sulfite so it would be wise to measure the sulfite level not the sulfate.
    4. Wher ei can buy strips for sulfite or sulfate urine testing?

    Thank you
     
  2. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    SEARCH FOR Sulfate Quantofix Analytical Strips and Sulfite Quantofix Analytical Strips.
    I did a BLOOD test for Ammonia.
     
  3. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    thank you UM MAN i read all your signature ... so you still have high sulfate?? how did you reduced ammonia? with diet and yasko supplements? (about diet you went vegan or how did u change it?)
     
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    One can reduce ammonia by first cutting back on protein and other high-nitrogen foods and then gradually introducing bacteria that will both assist with the metabolism of these nitrogenous compounds, including NH3, but also lower the concentration of those species that are contributing to this problem. In my opinion the problem is not created by a collection of SNP's, but an imbalance among nitrogen-fixing/urea-splitting bacteria. Many pathogenic strains of bacteria actually provide benefits in reducing this ammonia to less toxic metabolites, and the irony is that attempts to manipulate the intestinal microbiome (probiotics/antibiotics) often makes matters worse because the pathogenic organisms that are eradicated may have been simultaneously providing beneficial effects.

    Consider trying Bifidobacterium strains, infantis and bifidum; these should be singularly cultured in milk for 24 hours. These will lower pH in the large intestine and dramatically reduce ammonia levels, inhibit the growth of pathogenic organisms, increase SCFA production, increase LAB numbers in the proximal bowel, inhibit/kill H. Pylori in the stomach, increase HCL production, dramatically reduce LPS concentrations in the intestinal lumen, dramatically reduce histamine, increase GSH locally and systemically, lower formaldehyde concentrations, produce b vitamins, folate & others, etc.

    It's not just the 1/2 kilo of bad bacteria in your GI tract that is keeping you ill, but rather the absence of necessary anaerobic species that counterbalance and correct this. Bifidobacteria have high GC-content and they stimulate MAF. What they also possess, however, is an ability to attenuate NF-kB and TNF-a. Lowering the inflammatory and histamine response is critical. One's reactivity to "methylation" supplements is a consequence of dysbiosis.

    Good luck.
     
    Gondwanaland, Sasha, Gestalt and 4 others like this.
  5. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    SOUX is not a problem for me. I needed more Molybdenum and to up regulate the BHMT pathway. I don't restrict protein, thiols, or sulfur rich foods. For me, ammonia was never an issue. (that is why you test it first)
     
  6. JAH

    JAH Senior Member

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    I had my blood tested for ammonia at a lab. Specifically plasma ammonia, free flowing venous on ice. I had to check with the lab to make sure they could do it, but easily done in US. (My levels were high)

    Good luck

    JAH
     
  7. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    thanks everybody, UM MAN ok sorry i mistaken i wanted to know how are you going to mnage the sulfite /sulfate problem if with diet or just with supplements
     
  8. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Vegas, do you know if this information that you gave for lowering ammonia pertains to uric acid problems, too?
    Foods containing sulfur and foods with appreciable purines cause me problems that I don't seem to be able to get over. I also like the idea that if you correct the problems in your gut, your body will produce b vitamins, folate, and others. That's the way it's supposed be.

    Do you culture your own milk? If so, where do you buy your bifidobacterium strains? Do you use raw milk? Do you have an opinion about how much one should eat a day?

    Thanks, I apprecated your information.
     
  9. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Who has experience doing this? Any tips on how to are very welcome :)
     
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I have made yogurt, which is essentially what Vegas is talking about, and it's very simple. I used a packaged yogurt starter by Yogurmet. It doesn't have the same strains in is that Vegas is talking about. But if you can find those strains, and there are online stores that sell custom made yogurt starters, all you would need to do is find a site with yogurt making directions. You don't need to buy a yogurt maker, just prepare the milk with yogurt starter, put it in jars, and then keep the jars warm for 24 hours. I have already done it three different ways: putting warm water in a cooler and placing the jars in there (it's a lot of work in the winter because you have to keep replacing the water), putting the jars in the oven of a gas stove and putting trays of hot water underneath them, and putting the jars in a large crock pot that had a temperature control that could be set very low. A yogurt maker of course is the easiest way.

    I haven't started back into the process yet, so I'm taking a probiotic:)
     
  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    As you probably know, people with ME/CFS are known to have hyporuricemia. In this regard, I don't consider the low uric acid the problem, rather this is a consequence of the impaired metabolism of nitrogen, which I think is a consequence of dysbiosis. (Obviously limited cofactors like zinc, Mo, and low ATP don't help this).

    It has taken me years to understand some of the food "sensitivities" and understand how to correct them. In fact this really came about by accident when I started "rebalancing" my intestinal microbiome and as a result became extremely sensitive to many foods. In other words large amounts of probiotic rich foods resulted in a very uncomfortable reaction to nitrogen-rich foods. The purine alkaloids were probably at the top of the list. I'm guessing this is what you are describing. It became clear that the displacement of normally pathogenic organisms left me without the full-complement of species required to handle nitrogen byproducts. That is, pathogenic organisms were filling a void and species like psuedomonas were reducing the toxic nitrogen metabolites to less harmful byproducts.

    At first I was looking for a microbial solution to rebalance the nitrogen "problem," but the solution ended up being much more comprehensive. The solution I came up with was that those organisms that were most beneficial were truly anearobic species, and it was my conclusion that the lack of commensal anaerobes was what was keeping me (and probably others) from healing the gut, lessening the immune response, translocating bacteria, etc.

    Bifidobacteria and their unique hexose metabolism and certain species of LAB that rely upon obligative heterofermentation appear to be the winners. The similarities in what would happen if one developed a scarcity of these organisms is really striking when compared to the observations in ME/CFS. In fact I have come to find many more similarities in other seemingly unrelated diseases. Disruptions in the purine/pyrimidine metabolism have just in the last year been identified in a number of GI diseases, and riboflavin perturbations are also common as are SCFA imbalances. These are signatures of bifidobacteria. I've also learned that the importance and numbers of Bifidobacteria have been greatly underestimated, and traditional tests not combined with pcr analysis are not likely useful.

    Through careful testing, I learned that single strain bifidobacteria yields much more potent results, especially when compared to LAB mixed with bifido strains. A commercial starter culture will be dominated by LAB, and many of these homofermentative strains are not desirable. They are energetically inefficient.

    I would suggest starting out with one of the bifido strains from Natren and culturing in milk for 24 hours. Both B. Infantis and B. Bifidum have histamine-degrading ability. They also don't create unwanted metabolites, like biogenic amines. LAB strains are similarly important and these predominantly colonize the small intestine, but I think altering the pH in the large intestine and the inherent ability to metabolize nitrogen, and bolstering SCFA production is the priority in healing the intestinal tract. This has so many implications including glutamine availability, creating a bacteriocidic effect, lowering pro-inflammatory response, etc. It is a bottom-up approach, and as I have found if you displace too many pathogenic organisms in the proximal colon, you can create collateral problems.

    Use raw milk if you have it, but otherwise just sterilize it at 170 degrees before you culture it. I anaerobically ferment this with C02 off-gassing, but I am not convinced that this is necessary. The key is getting the right strains and not combining them. Different strains have different effects, and different culturing methods greatly influence the properties of each strain. For example many strains of bacteria will provide tremendous ability to degrade formaldehyde if they are anaerobically cultured, but culturing in oxygen will completely inhibit the capacity of this trait. It has become clear to me that the formaldehyde concentrations that people with ME/CFS demonstrate are a product of their own intestinal microbiomes. The by-products of the histamine degradation are aldehyde, ammonia and hydrogen.Tetrahydrofolate is critical to the metabolism of aldehydes. It acts as a donor of a group with one carbon atom.

    As I see it, the lack of the right bifidus strains has adverse consequences on the conversion to reduced forms of folates, it potentially reduces the availability of biotin and riboflavin, hinders the recycling of ADP, reduces NADP availability, results in the accumulation of gram-negative bacteria, increases the pH of the large intestine, diminishes the metabolism of histamine, aldehydes, and ammonia, reduce the availability of energy available (about 15%) due to SCFA's.

    Making cultured bifidus strains is easy, just take it slow because its effects as an immune stimulant will build over time. If you have intestinal permeability, the lower lymphatic vessels will become noticeably engaged (sore, painful, cytokines). (LAB strains that populate the upper GI tract will more prominently effect the messenteric lymph nodes-e paraspinal and brach off to the axillary. These strains are highly adherent, in fact you will struggle to clean this fermented milk from a glass jar. Milk is the preferred substrate, and the substrate does influence the adhesion efficiency. This is not an overnight fix, but it works. It seems to be particularly effective at re-balancing fluid levels, which I think is simply a consequence of lowered ammonia. In other words, you don't need as much fluid to dilute the caustic substances, so once one starts getting bifidus strains on board, they may notice having to urinate a lot for a little while.
     
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Wow, Vegas, this is very interesting. I am reading and rereading it.
    Pretty interesting about purine metabolism being a part of it. I've been trying to work that out for quite a few years now. Also, I have been thinking lately that a lot of my problems started or got worse after I starting drinking raw milk and making yogurt or kefir out of it. Yogurt and kefir using the typical yogurt starter strains were actually much worse for me than the milk, and I couldn't figure out why. Very interesting.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I'm bumping this up today in case anyone with purine metabolism and ammonia problems hasn't seen it.

    I haven't started making the yogurt yet, but am going to order some Natren probiotic to get it going.
     
  14. finalgates

    finalgates

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    how much time after or before charcoal we can take supplements?
     
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I recommend B. Infantis and Bifidus for their full complement of enzymes able to convert and interconvert all forms of folate, but for the specific purpose of lowering ammonia, B. Bifidus is going to be the most effective. This process happens via a number of different mechanisms.

    First, the Bifidus through production of bacteriocins and organic acids results in the displacement of pathogenic organisms that are net producers of ammonia (or other nitrogenous products that contribute to this). While I see individual variances in organisms that predominate in many different inflammatory diseases down to something as specific as ME/CFS, the broadest classification of organisms creating the dysbiosis is the predominance of PROTEOBACTERIA. These gram-positive, largely anaerobic species need to be displaced from the lower intestinal tract; the void needs to be filled with organisms that can reside there. This means you need competing species that will fill this largely anaerobic niche. Like proteobacteria, bifidus species, will occupy that niche. They are obligatively or facultatively, anaerobic, like most proteobacteria, yet they are gram positive and non-pathogenic.
    (Other aerobic organisms and the deamination of proteins and other nitrogenous compounds also contribute to this, but I don't want to get too complicated).

    The second, method whereby the Bifidum will decrease plasma ammonia is through it's ability to alter pH. Lower pH reduces the production of ammonia by intestinal organisms. What I think is more consequential though is that a lower, and more acidic pH will enhance hydrolysis. In the lower pH of the large intestine ammonia (NH3) can more readily bond with Hydrogen, creating ammonium (NH4). The importance of this reaction is that ammonium cannot pass through the bowel wall into the blood. Reducing pH in the colon thus allows for ammonia to be converted to a less toxic form, and one that does not diffuse into the blood.

    The nitrogenous compounds that will create problems don't just include ammonia. Protein catabolism and the one's metabolism and disassimilation of amino acids can create a number of toxic byproducts. I think that some people who take enzymes do poorly because they are freeing compounds that cannot be readily metabolized. Perhaps the failure to fully breakdown proteins that is nearly universal in ME/CFS has a protective purpose. These toxic compounds include, cresols, phenols, indoles, hydrogen sufide, amines, etc. Purine alkaloids from plants are simply amines. Another problematic category is threonine, which is metabolized into aldehydes. (Check out foods high in threonine to see if you have trouble with any of these) Threonine is toxic to me, yet it is an important molecule in maintaining the integrity of the intestinal lining. For those who use GcMAF, it is a sugar attached to the threonine amino acid that makes the Gc protein “glycosylated.”

    In vivo and vitro studies do show that these organism can lower plasma ammonia, and other toxic compounds like phenols. Sure, an "upregulated" enzyme involved in cysteine biosynthesis might make you a bit more symptomatic, but this is not the underlying cause of the disordered metabolism. Adults have 10x's higher plasma ammonia than children, and they have, by proportion, about 1/4 to 1/5 the number of bifidus organisms. I see many with ME/CFS who have 10 x's the concentration of plasma ammonia than the average adult. What I think many people don't realize though, and I believe I mentioned this, but many pathogenic organisms are involved in nitrogen fixation and denitrification, so while all must go, their diminishment can make matters worse unless the appropriate organisms are left in their place.

    I read where Dr. Ruggiero said that his GcMAF "yogurt" formulation was dominated by bacterial organisms that predominate in infants. This is exactly what I am suggesting, re-populate with those human strains that healthy infants possess. I do, however, believe many strains, particularly homofermentative LAB are to be initially avoided, i think the full ability to synthesize and convert all forms of folate should be incorporated, and I also believe that one needs to concentrate on repopulating with COLONIZING strains.

    Unfortunately, gram-positive bacteria are, by nature, extremely hostile. They have tough outer layers of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) that make them resilient to many antibiotics. (Conversely, many of the commensal organisms, like those most should receive at birth, are highly sensitive to these antibiotics..thanks Fleming.) Lipid A takes no prisoners, and it's antigenic friend O-antigen will help stimulate some more unwanted symptoms. Bifidobacteria can neutralize some of this, but once you start displacing organisms these components of the dead bacterial cell walls will elicit a powerful immune response and cause huge amounts of ROS and NOS, which will call upon your GSH stores and occupy the lympathic networks as they make their way to the liver. Go too quickly, and your symptoms will tell you. Modifying the human intestinal microbiome takes time, but it seems to be worth it. Like others who have made very pronounced recoveries from ME/CFS, I always considered the GI component a secondary complication, but I know feel confident that it was primary in the pathogenesis of my illness.
     
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  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Vegas, thank you , thank you, thank you.

    I bought a natren bifido factor and had my first 6 ounces yesterday. My gut had been so uncomfortable for weeks that I would only wear yoga type pants, but today I was able to wear my jeans! A small victory. It didn't get thick at all, and I almost ordered a yogurt starter from Wilderness family naturals that contains bifidobacteria and LAB, but I will refrain and stick to just the bifidobacteria yogurt. I'll buy the b. infantis next, and maybe alternate.

    Since my first case of severe joint and muscle pain at least 5 years ago now, I can't eat purines, so I know I have the issues caused by protein digestion, but maybe I have the formaldehyde issues too. I had been intermittently eating yogurt until I would have some sort of severe collapse, but would always go back to either yogurt or kefir because I couldn't eat meat or beans. So I suppose all the regular yogurt and kefir strains were making me worse, who would've thought! I've had chronic fatigue for over 30 years.

    At first I thought that maybe humans weren't meant to eat purines, but after a couple of years I started to think that if a good number of humans could get away with it and be fine, there had to be a reason why some can and some can't. I actually think you have found the reason, and it may be the answer to my other health issues, too.

    I did want to ask if you recommend continuing with methylfolate, B12, etc. while starting with the bifidobacteria?

    Thanks again

    ps: I guess the immune response is starting. I feel like I'm going to vomit and I'm so tired I can hardly move.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I'm sorry that you are feeling unwell. As you may know, when you make your own yogurt it is many fold more potent than anything you can buy. Six ounces translates to about 500 billion CFU. I'm sorry for not suggesting that you take no more than half an ounce or so. While Bifidus strains will predominantly take up in the large intestine, some strains are active against h.pylori, which can make you a bit dizzy and nauseated. The bigger problem is as I described above, displacing gram negative pathogens is not child's play.

    There are a number of problems with Kefir and some other fermented foods, at least in the sensitive ME/CFS population. In ME/CFS it is common to have excessive numbers of LAB, but I think they are commonly the wrong organisms. As mentioned, I'm generally not a fan of the homofermentative strains of LAB. Also, many of the commensal strep strains metabolize alcohol, but they don't have the capacity to metabolize the more toxic metabolite, acetaldehyde.

    I would not stop the B12 if it is benefiting you, but enough MB12 can exacerbate some symptoms. I can more confidently say keep the methylfolate, which is inextricably linked to the problems, and is necessary for aldehyde detoxification, glycine synthesis, etc. .
     
    Gestalt likes this.
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Wow, okay, I'll cut back on the bifidus yogurt.

    I looked up the list of foods high in threonine, and I hadn't been able to eat any of them for about 6 years. The most telling ones are the dairy, cream cheese and cottage cheese, which caused me a lot of distress, while other dairy wasn't quite so bad. Yogurt and kefir did bother me, but it would always require a build up of a month or two.

    I reread your first message in this thread and saw that you mentioned B2. Then I found the B2 I love you thread. I ordered some B2 and metafolin, since the only methylfolate I had was in a multi, and am looking forward to adding those into the mix.

    I read a little bit about Ruggiero and his GcMAF yogurt last night. Very interesting! Do you have any thoughts on colostrum?

    Thanks again
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    B12, not B2.
     
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Actually, Christopher, there is a thread here called B2 I love you. You can search it out. Very interesting.
     

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