The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[ahmo]

@jepps, What benefit is there to ingesting our own stool? Also, isn't what we want here the bacteria, not the vibrations? I'm envious you've been able to get some from your sister, @student I asked a couple people, and then realized I just couldn't go down that path, don't know anyone well enough + healthy to ask.

When I re-read, it sounds like student is talking only about using sister's stool, jepps is talking about self.

 

[jepps]

@jepps, What benefit is there to ingesting our own stool? Also, isn't what we want here the bacteria, not the vibrations? I'm envious you've been able to get some from your sister, @student I asked a couple people, and then realized I just couldn't go down that path, don't know anyone well enough + healthy to ask.

When I re-read, it sounds like student is talking only about using sister's stool, jepps is talking about self.

@ahmo if I understand it right, @student thinks to use its own stool. Autotherapy with body secrets like blood, uric or stool are used in acute situations to stimulate the immune system to face up with microbes (f.ex. the autohaemotherapy). As autotherapy stimulates the immunity, the substances should only be used in homoepathic dosages.

 

[Biarritz13]

I read the whole tread and it has been really really interesting.

IMO It would be interesting to see the microbiome analysis of different categories of ME/CFS patients (for example Hip made a poll regarding PEM and reaction to lactate producing probiotics : PEM and sensitive, PEM but no sensitive, no PEM but sensitive, no PEM and not sensitive).

Maybe we could see why some are sensitive to lactate producing probiotics and if we find a strong difference comparing to a balanced and healthy gut, it's possible that we could see some improvement by trying to rebalance the gut taking to health one as an example.

I am not taking it as an example of a healthy gut but the Hadza hunter gatherers from Tanzania have almost no Bifidobacteria but Treponema strains instead, which we don't find in industrialised population gut. (source)

 

[Biarritz13]

I didn't see a probiotic thread so I am posting a study about the effect of B. longum BB536 in case of it hasn't been posted yet.

Effects of Bifidobacterium longum BB536 Administration on Influenza Infection, Influenza Vaccine Antibody Titer, and Cell-Mediated Immunity in the Elderly

"The proportion of subjects who contracted influenza was significantly lower in BB536 group than in the to placebo group".

Be aware that it produces acid lactic!

 

[outdamnspot]

I used to supplement Potato Starch with really great results about 2 years ago (when I was in somewhat better health): it improved mood, anxiety, cognition and libido.

I started suffering from really bad reactive hypoglycemia several months ago, and recently switched to a Keto diet, which seems to be helping. Acutely ingesting Potato Starch (1-4tbps) at night will actually induce hunger/low blood sugar feelings, but I notice a net improvement in symptoms the next day -- and can far more easily tolerate caffeine etc. without constant crashes.

However, I experience really disruptive brain fog/dissociation on it, most noticeably when combined with caffeine. It's a strange feeling of overstimulation, emotional emptiness, and an inability to process information etc. I'm quite sensitive to serotonergics, which definitely induce the latter two symptoms, and I know that feeding the microbiome should increase serotonin production, but I've never really had this on the RS before.

Could anyone guess why? Is it possible the diet is making me more sensitive somehow? It's annoying, giving the other benefits supplementing imparts.

 

[Biarritz13]

Could anyone guess why? Is it possible the diet is making me more sensitive somehow? It's annoying, giving the other benefits supplementing imparts.

Doesn't it depends on your own bacteria since RS feeds them?

I haven't started yet but maybe it would be better to check our own bacteria before starting.

 

[jepps]

Doesn't it depends on your own bacteria since RS feeds them?

I haven't started yet but maybe it would be better to check our own bacteria before starting.

You could do an Ubiome test. There is much pro and contra regarding the Ubiome test. But for me they are worth the money. The RS and prebiotics helped me to reduce the inflammation a lot. During this time, while this happened, also the inflammation reducing bacteria increased according to the Ubiome test.

@outdamnspot could you react to the keto diet? Keto diet could feed candida.

 

[Biarritz13]

You could do an Ubiome test. There is much pro and contra regarding the Ubiome test. But for me they are worth the money. The RS and prebiotics helped me to reduce the inflammation a lot. During this time, while this happened, also the inflammation reducing bacteria increased according to the Ubiome test.

I am interested but the fact that the result is different depending from where you take the sample is a little bit reluctant for me.

 

[adreno]

A case for tapioca starch?

Soluble Dextrin Fibers Alter Intestinal Microbiota and Reduce Proinflammatory Cytokine Secretion in Male IL-10–Deficient Mice

1. Rosica Valcheva4,
2. Naomi Hotte4,
3. Patrick Gillevet6,
4. Masoumeh Sikaroodi6,
5. Aducio Thiessen5,
6. Karen L Madsen4

Abstract
Background: Prebiotic fibers stimulate the growth and activity of gut microbiota. Interleukin 10–deficient (IL-10−/−) mice develop a colitis that is influenced by gut microbial composition.

Objective: The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of prebiotic fibers on intestinal microbiota and immune function in IL-10−/− mice.

Methods: At 4 wk of age, male IL-10−/− mice (n = 8/group) were randomly assigned to 5 diets: unpurified diet with cellulose (4%; control), corn-derived hydroxypropylated new resistant starch (NRS) (2% NRS + 2% cellulose), soluble fiber dextrin from tapioca (SFD-t) (4%), soluble fiber dextrin from corn (SFD-c) (4%), or soluble corn fiber (4%) for 12 wk. Growth, small intestinal permeability, histologic injury, intestinal cytokine secretion, and microbiota composition by 16S ribosomal RNA pyrosequencing of stool were measured. ANOVA and principal component analysis were applied to assess the fibers effects.

Results: There were no significant differences in mouse growth, intestinal weight, length, or gut permeability over the 12 wk feeding period. Mice fed dextrin-based diets secreted 47–88% less colonic IL-1β, tumor necrosis factor α, and IL-23 (SFD-t diet) and IL-12 heterodimer p70, IL-6, and chemokine ligand 1 (CXCL1) (SFD-c diet) (P < 0.05) than did the control group, whereas NRS-fed mice had 55–77% less secreted IL-6 and CXCL1 (P < 0.05). Both SFD-t– and SFD-c–fed mice had a lower abundance of Lactobacillaceae (70–75% less than control mice). The SFD-t diet group had a lower enterocyte injury score (P < 0.04) than did control mice, and this was associated with increased abundance of butyrate producers, including Incertae sedis XIV, Lachnospiraceae, and Ruminococcaceae (P < 0.001).

Conclusions: These results demonstrate that soluble prebiotic fibers selectively stimulate the growth of distinctive gut microbiota in IL-10−/− mice. SFD-t induced the growth of butyrate-producing microbes and was effective in reducing proinflammatory cytokine secretion and enterocyte injury in this mouse model of colitis.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2015/07/15/jn.114.207738

 

[Crux]

A case for tapioca starch?

You go first.

 

[adreno]

You go first.

My upcoming gut protocol consists of cellulose, tapioca starch, colostrum and enteric-coated peppermint oil

 

[Sidereal]

My upcoming gut protocol consists of cellulose, tapioca starch, colostrum and enteric-coated peppermint oil

 

[Crux]

My upcoming gut protocol consists of cellulose, tapioca starch, colostrum and enteric-coated peppermint oil

yUmm, pudding.

 

[alicec]

A case for tapioca starch?

I've included tapioca flour in my daily prebiotic-rich muffin for maybe 12 months now - so a smallish dose. I can't single out effects specific to this of course but overall I am seeing gut improvements.

It is good to see tapioca flour can have selective and beneficial results - we need more research to better define the differential effects of various prebiotics.

 

[Oci]

I've included tapioca flour in my daily prebiotic-rich muffin for maybe 12 months now - so a smallish dose. I can't single out effects specific to this of course but overall I am seeing gut improvements.

It is good to see tapioca flour can have selective and beneficial results - we need more research to better define the differential effects of various prebiotics.

Would you be willing to share your recipe for your "daily prebiotic-rich muffin"?
I'm glad to hear that you are making progress. Any Ubiome tests of late?

 

[alicec]

Would you be willing to share your recipe for your "daily prebiotic-rich muffin"?
I'm glad to hear that you are making progress. Any Ubiome tests of late?

Sure I'll attach the recipes. They are fairly forgiving so feel free to experiment with ingredients. Tapioca flour could easily be increased, just reduce another flour proportionately (though coconut flour is more moisture absorbing).

I'm doing monthly uBiome tests for a while just to try to get a better idea of the pattern of change. Diversity is still not great - still missing a lot of things but some are coming back and the pattern is normalising.

 

[adreno]

But baked flour isn't prebiotic, is it?

 

[alicec]

But baked flour isn't prebiotic, is it?

RS2 (the stuff in raw potato flour) would be lost but not RS1 and 3, nor fructans, pectins and various other fibres.

 

[jepps]

RS2 (the stuff in raw potato flour) would be lost but not RS1 and 3, nor fructans, pectins and various other fibres.

As far as I read, tapioca flour isn´t RS, only tapioca starch is RS2. Tapioca flour is only glucose, but no RS. And somewhere in the thread it was talked about cooked potato starch: as you say, it is RS1 and RS3.

 

[alicec]

tapioca flour isn´t RS, only tapioca starch is RS2.

I was using the term generically but I do think tapioca flour and starch are the same thing. It is not the same situation as potato flour and potato starch which definitely are different.

Cassava (manioc) has to be processed very carefully to avoid some nasty glycosides and it is the starch extracted from the roots which we know as tapioca. Dried it becomes manioc flour or tapioca flour or tapioca starch. That is how I understood it anyhow.

But you are right - it is best to get terms straight - my packet calls it tapioca starch.

As an aside, I assume that at least some of the RS2 lost to cooking would become RS3 (as with cooked and cooled rice and potatoes).