The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

I've been doing the same lately. Seems tolerable thus far. I am intrigued by this study showing increase in butyrate and decreased lactate after oat bran supplementation. However, if you look at Fig 1 you'll see there's quite a bit of individual variation; some people went in the opposite direction which you don't want. It doesn't surprise me given the wide range of reactions we've seen to everything around here.

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v62/n8/pdf/1602816a.pdf

& I would predict that the response would be more consistent if the steel cut oats were substituted for oat bran, because it is the arabinoxylan fraction versus the beta glucan that appears to be inducing these changes. Pentose > hexose.

In the study you posted, it would be useful if they would have correlated scfa's for each individual subject. I also see the author's speculated about possible involvement of SRB. We know this could explain this variability.

Ariel's strategy of stimulating distal fermentation is a good one, but I like oat bran better than PHGG.

Digestibility of polysaccharides and other macronutrients and the metabolic response of the microflora in the large intestine to a low dietary fiber wheat flour diet and three enriched diets with equal amounts of added dietary fiber (oat bran, a beta-glucan-enriched oat fraction and insoluble oat residues) were studied in ileal-cannulated pigs. The digestibility of starch was high in the small intestine (98-100%). At this site of the gastrointestinal tract there was also a significant degradation of mixed linked beta (1 --> 3; 1 --> 4)-D-glucan (beta-glucan) (45-54%), whereas arabinoxylan was quantitatively recovered in ileal effluent. Type and amount of polysaccharides passing the ileal-cecal junction had little effect of the density of microorganism in the large intestine (approximately 10(10) viable counts/g digesta) but did have a high impact on the activity of the flora in colon as measured by the concentration of ATP in digesta. The relative proportion of butyrate in the short-chain fatty acids in the luminal contents of the large intestine was 6.6-8.4% when the low dietary fiber wheat flour diet was fed. However, when either oat bran or insoluble residues were included in the diet, the level was raised to 9.3-11.2%. No effect was seen after the addition of the beta-glucan-enriched fraction. This study showed that arabinoxylan and not beta-glucan in the cell walls of oat bran was responsible for the enhanced butyrate production of oat bran.

Despite the fact that this is a non-human study, from other studies, it has been established that the fermentative processes stimulated by providing oat xylan to LAB is distinctly from those processes stimulated by beta glucan. In my opinion, Xylan would appear to be more favorable.

 

[whodathunkit]

Has anybody in this thread that is housebound or of a lower activity level tried the really high-dose supplmentation with select bifido and some lactobacillus strains that is currently being touted by Richard Nikoley over at FTA? He's onto this super high-dose probiotic blend called "Elixa", supposed to deliver over three billion bacteria over a six-day course. He's got a few anecdotes posted of good effects, even in people with no previous work on their guts.

There are no prebiotics involved...just a very large dose of probiotics. Similar to taking a couple packs of VSL-3 per day, for several days. But with slightly different strains.

I've taken VSL#3 in the past (before my gut was in as good a shape as now and it's still not healed yet), tried a few sachets at one time to not noticeable results. It's very expensive so not sure I'm going to order it again.

But the rationale for high-dose (i.e., the sheer number of bacteria being ingested make it more likely a lot of them will make it past the SI to the DC) appeals to me so I ordered some Elixa to try. In the interim of receiving it, however, I decided to experiment with high-dose multi-strain of mostly bifidos just to see what would happen. I used something I had in my fridge that was about to go over...Ultimate Flora Critical Colon. I'd used it within stated dosage parameters (like 1 cap per day) in the past to no noticeable effect.

But when I swallowed 8 of the caps (~640 billion bacteria total) I was pleasantly surprised. No gas or bloating, seemed like I got a little mood/energy boost (that's debatable since those markers can fluctuate quickly), AND I got what one commenter earlier in this thread called a "Bristol Type Awesome!" poop the next day. Bristol varies widely with me still despite my progress so that was noteworthy. I didn't have enough to continue for more than a couple days, but it was interesting.

Received the Elixa yesterday and started today, so no results there yet. No ill effects from the large dose this morning, however.

Anyone else ever try really high-dosing? Might be worth a try...

 

[ariel]

Thanks Vegas, that was really helpful!

I like oat bran better than PHGG.

Just anecdotally, I found that PHGG didn't produce a huge difference, just a slight increase in an overall sense of well-being. It was the Wheat Dextrin where I really felt as if things were shifting at the distal end.
As I've already written, I'm now trialling the Orafti, which is producing a whole different set of problems. Will attempt to compare the Wheat Dextrin and Orafti at some stage.
But will get some oat bran in the meantime!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@whodathunkit please keep us updated

 

[alicec]

Anyone else ever try really high-dosing?

I have with VSL 3. Didn't do anything much and made no difference to my non-existent lactobacillus and bifidobacterium levels.

I am so sensitive to B. infantis that I don't know if I would have the courage to take a huge bifido dose but will be very interested to hear how you go.

 

[jepps]

Received the Elixa yesterday and started today, so no results there yet. No ill effects from the large dose this morning, however.

Anyone else ever try really high-dosing? Might be worth a try...

I take 300 bio. daily (8 from Complete probiotics from Dr. Mercola, 4 Kyo-dophilus 9, Prescript-Assist and saccharomyces boulardii) since one year, in addition to the higher dosages of prebiotics and RS. With an inflamed mucosa and an intestine mucosal atrophy the probiotics do not adhere to the mucosa, so the affect is only temporarily, as long as we take the high dosages.
Nevertheless it makes sense as replacement for the gut flora, and because of the immunomodulatory effect.

You could ferment probiotics anaerobic, this makes also high dosages and is cheaper. I buy probiotics, because they are easier to dose, but in future I plan to ferment them by my own.

 

[JPV]

This seems pertinent to the current discussion...

Probiotics: Larger Doses Making a Big Difference

I began with a retention enema using 8 pills of VSL#3 in about 4 ounces of distilled water, using an empty and rinsed Fleet enema bottle. About 5 minutes later I felt my long-gone sense of smell returning. I noticed a basket of essential oils that had been on my dresser for months. Hard to imagine my nose had been so impaired this wasn’t fragrant to me until now, but that’s indeed the case.

About 20 minutes later, I noticed my tinnitus getting quieter, and my whole body relaxing. My mood improved. Joint pain was lessened, also.

Oral administration of VSL#3 was my next step. I took 8 capsules, 2 doses of 4 each, that first day.

I’ve been taking 4 capsules, 3 times per day, between meals, ever since, and drinking 2 pints of distilled water with each dose. I add trace minerals to my water. I only did the retention enema on day 1, and am hoping I can stop it altogether or reduce to once per week.

Now, three days in to the 12 capsules per day oral protocol, here’s a an intriguing list of symptoms where I’m definitely seeing improvements. It’s worth noting a great many of these issues came about after taking fluoroquinolone antibiotics. How much of being “floxed” is due to altered flora?

 

[whodathunkit]

Well, there's the ol' "Empty Fleet Enema Bottle" trick popping up again. I'm definitely trying that now, probably this weekend. I even have the Fleet enemas already, bought when I was going to try it a few months ago. Someone in this thread used it with prebiotics to pretty good effect, but I can't remember who. I never did it because "enema!", but it may be time to "sack up", as the saying goes, about that.

Worth noting is that it's probably crucial to have a mostly bifido probiotic mix to effectively high dose (via one end or the other). I remember taking some largish doses of lactobacilli in the past, and it made my bum itch. Not fun. Apparently that's a side effect of lactobacillus overdose. Not had any problems high-dosing bifidos, though. Just saying for those who can't afford the pricey VSL3. Not sure I'm going to use that again although the article @JPV posted is making me re-think it.

@Gondwanaland: No problem. I can update in whatever level of detail people would like to know.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I can update in whatever level of detail people would like to know.

Talking about itchy bum
Has anyone ever had a sacrum/coccyx itch? I had that when I was eating too much yogurt (LAB!)

 

[whodathunkit]

Well, what I had is more correctly termed "anus itch", but I was trying to avoid putting it quite that baldly. And yep, because of the lactobacilli bacteria, I think OD-ing on yogurt can do it to you, too.

 

[jepps]

Did anybody try this supplement:
http://www.arthurandrew.com/products/floraphage

Floraphage was designed to support the proliferation of beneficial bacteria throughout the gastrointestinal tract in order to promote optimal digestive and immune health. Floraphage was tested in conjunction with four popular probiotic supplements to determine its ability to increase the potency or growth of each respective product. The average increase in CFU activity, which is the measurement of probiotic bacteria growth, for the four products was 2400% versus control (growth without the use of Floraphage). Floraphage is an excellent product to take in conjunction with a probiotic to maximize the benefits of supplemented beneficial bacteria. It is also helpful for those who do not take probiotics in order to maximize indigenous bacteria growth.

*Floraphage and Beneficial Bacteria.
Floraphage was able to increase the growth rate of supplemented probiotics by an average of 24x compared to control.*

Floraphage specifically targets bad bacteria and destroys their cell wall, releasing nutrients that provide good bacteria with the food and space that are needed for substantial growth in the digestive tract. In doing so, Floraphage reverses the growth pattern of certain bad bacteria and allows good bacteria to proliferate in their place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage

 

[South]

That product doesn't explain the mechanism by with it supposedly only kills bad bacteria, while not killing good bacteria. Is the product really a bacteriophage? The Wikipedia page for bacteriophages explains that they are viruses, that kill bacteria. But this product studiously avoids using the word "virus".

It also claims to be a prebiotic, but the only prebiotic quality of it is the dead bacteria guts. As one of these links comments, "who knows about the 'nutrient' claim from exploding bad bacteria... I kinda doubt it."

It's not resistant starch, that's for sure.

Some skepticism here:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3238851

 

[Sasha]

I seem to be doing much worse now that I've had to stop the potato starch/psyllium, even though doing so seems to have improved my acid reflux (still under investigation) considerably.

Is there a form of RS where the starch is encapsulated in cell walls so it's got a better chance of getting distally into the gut, just in case that's the issue? I read recently (Chris Kresser? Can't remember) that that's generally good for your gut - to eat stuff where the goodies are contained within cell walls.

Being in the UK I've got no access to stuff like banana flour and tapioca starch but I guess they're no better than potato starch in terms of being inside cells.

 

[JPV]

Is there a form of RS where the starch is encapsulated in cell walls so it's got a better chance of getting distally into the gut, just in case that's the issue? I read recently (Chris Kresser? Can't remember) that that's generally good for your gut - to eat stuff where the goodies are contained within cell walls.

I don't know about encapsulated RS but this was posted, a page or two back, on this thread...

There is one theory that it is best for those with overgrowths of negative pathogens to take fibres that target the distal end rather than the proximal end, as there is less chance of the prebiotic feeding the undesirables. That theory is what lead me to trying a bunch which supposedly target the distal end.
Though I have been extremely sensitive to the fibres which do this - in particular the Orafti and the Wheat Dextrin (Benefiber). Others might not be.

 

[South]

@Sasha One of the big blogs online about resistant starch has been recently recommending cooked and cooled rice, or cooked and cooled potatoes, instead of or in addition to the powdered RS products/powdered fibers.

I don't have much time right now, so can't find the blogs to link them, but there was some talk about these two food sources being more slowly broken down to target the lower gut better, instead of the powder products that might hit the upper gut too much for some people...

 

[adreno]

Is there a form of RS where the starch is encapsulated in cell walls so it's got a better chance of getting distally into the gut, just in case that's the issue? I read recently (Chris Kresser? Can't remember) that that's generally good for your gut - to eat stuff where the goodies are contained within cell walls.

That's what I posted about recently, with the article on cellular vs acellular foods. Basically, whole foods are cellular, while refined foods are not, so I think what @South is saying makes sense.

 

[Sidereal]

Steel cut oats seems like a no brainer to try @Sasha. You could try also reintroducing psyllium without the RS.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha One of the big blogs online about resistant starch has been recently recommending cooked and cooled rice, or cooked and cooled potatoes, instead of or in addition to the powdered RS products/powdered fibers.

I don't have much time right now, so can't find the blogs to link them, but there was some talk about these two food sources being more slowly broken down to target the lower gut better, instead of the powder products that might hit the upper gut too much for some people...

Interesting - rice makes me ill and the last time I tried potatoes (which I've been off since starting the autoimmune Paleo diet) they were a bit suspect but I'll try again once things settle down.

Steel cut oats seems like a no brainer to try @Sasha. You could try also reintroducing psyllium without the RS.

Wheat makes me ill (non-coeliac gluten intolerance, I think) and in that case oats are recommended to be off the menu - I've avoided them for a long time.

Psyllium without the RS... there's a thought. I can't remember what psyllium feeds? I was only taking it to get the RS distally.

 

[Sidereal]

Psyllium without the RS... there's a thought. I can't remember what psyllium feeds? I was only taking it to get the RS distally.

Psyllium is beneficial in and of itself. It helping RS to go distally is just something that came up on blogs on the basis of a rat study. Of course like everything else discussed it may do nothing or make things worse.

 

[adreno]

Wheat makes me ill (non-coeliac gluten intolerance, I think) and in that case oats are recommended to be off the menu - I've avoided them for a long time.

You can get gluten-free oats.