The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

jepps

jepps

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Sidereal said:
I just think it's important to keep it real for the benefit of all the people who may be new coming to this thread after reading on Richard's site and elsewhere how great taking heaped tablespoons of RS daily is. Truth is, that kind of approach can maim you if you have ME/CFS and even if you take a low-and-slow cautious approach things can inexplicably go south many months into the protocol.
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@Sidereal, thank you for your post. I would say, you are carefully, and this is very important for us. We imitate nature with our supplements, in fact we should receive this nutritions from diet, not from supplements. During supplementing we should be very carefully with dosages. To much immune stimulation is wrong, no immune stimulation means nothing happens. We must find the right way on our own, and we need each help.

Dr. Grace posts:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/10/dont-take-raw-potato-starch-rps.html
Autoimmune disorders: if RS eaters are in the small intestines or severe intestinal permeability continues to allow normal gut microbes to leach into the blood, don't take any resistant starch and digestible starches temporarily.
How do you know? Cooked starches or raw RS make you very sick, flu-like, muscle achy, headachey, constipated, diarrhea, or bloated.
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She also posts, we should not:
- eat high dosage RS2: this means 30 g, low dosage RS2 means 15 g. PS has 80% starch, thereof 75% RS. So 1 tsp with 9 g RS has 5,5 g RS2. This means, up to 3 tsp PS is low dose.
- not to eat RS2 alone: she suggests, that the ancestrels ate raw starch only together with high amount of fibres. Maybe a good dosage is max. 1/4 RS, 3/4 fibres.
 
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adreno

adreno

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jepps said:
She also posts, we should not:
- eat high dosage RS2: this means 30 g, low dosage RS2 means 15 g. PS has 80% starch, thereof 75% RS. So 1 tsp with 9 g RS has 5,5 g RS2. This means, up to 3 tsp PS is low dose.
- not to eat RS2 alone: she suggests, that the ancestrels ate raw starch only together with high amount of fibres. Maybe a good dosage is max. 1/4 RS, 3/4 fibres.
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I don't think she knows ME/CFS very well, and I think we should be cautious about applying her advice to us. 3 tbs is alot of PS for many of us. I get problems just with a teaspoon.
 
jepps

jepps

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adreno said:
I don't think she knows ME/CFS very well, and I think we should be cautious about applying her advice to us. 3 tbs is alot of PS for many of us. I get problems just with a teaspoon.
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My thought was to adapt the RS dosage to the fibre dosage: f,ex. 4 tsp (I meant tsp, not tbsp) several fibres, maximum 1 tsp potatoe starch. 1 tsp fibres, 1/4 tsp potatoe starch.
 
S

Sidereal

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adreno said:
She said in her post she takes Miyarisan. You can find it on amazon or ebay. I just ordered some.
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Thanks, I meant to ask what specific product. I ordered the one from Amazon with 630 tablets. AOR3 contains this strain of Clostridium butyricum but since I couldn't tolerate it due to the other bacteria in it, I'm looking forward to trying it on its own.
 
adreno

adreno

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Sidereal said:
Thanks, I meant to ask what specific product. I ordered the one from Amazon with 630 tablets. AOR3 contains this strain of Clostridium butyricum but since I couldn't tolerate it due to the other bacteria in it, I'm looking forward to trying it on its own.
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There is also a 90 tab miyarisan "strength" product. I couldn't find the dosage of that one, though. I ordered the 630 tab one as well, probably easier to dose.
 
S

Sidereal

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jepps said:
Dr. Grace posts:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/10/dont-take-raw-potato-starch-rps.html
Autoimmune disorders: if RS eaters are in the small intestines or severe intestinal permeability continues to allow normal gut microbes to leach into the blood, don't take any resistant starch and digestible starches temporarily.
How do you know? Cooked starches or raw RS make you very sick, flu-like, muscle achy, headachey, constipated, diarrhea, or bloated.
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I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the meaning of these symptoms. Getting a systemic inflammatory response like this does not mean that cooked starches or RS are "making you very sick". All prebiotics - including her beloved inulin - will produce such symptoms if your intestinal permeability is severe. I used to get severe flu-like reactions at first from 1/4 tsp of RS a week. These reactions went away after many, many months of SLOWLY working on my gut with RS and other prebiotics.

Anyone who is chronically ill with an immune condition is going to experience these herx (for the lack of a better word) reactions when they take prebiotics, transiently at least. I think the problem here is that she mostly deals with her readership of the "worried well" who are relatively healthy people just looking to improve their performance and so when someone who is truly ill comes along and reports their symptoms, she doesn't know what to make of it.

In other words, what I'm saying is that what Grace wrote is not at all applicable to what I'm talking about. These herx reactions she's talking about, I experienced them for a long time while my underlying condition was actually improving. Whenever I stopped the starch for a few days I could really see the improvements I'd made which only became apparent when I wasn't herxing. What I'm talking about, though, is an actual worsening of the underlying condition I experienced after many months of taking RS and some other fibres whereby at first I was doing much better on them until "something" seemed to shift in the wrong direction.

Nonetheless, as @whodathunkit pointed out, if you're doing better today than you were when you started off the protocol, that still constitutes a net overall gain.
 
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whodathunkit

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@Sidereal, I hate it when we have to go "back to the drawing board" like that (that is, when a seemingly successful approach starts to fail).

Any ideas what caused the shift? Are you doing any other protocols for attacking biofilms, yeast, etc.? Pardon if you've already answered this...this is such a huge thread and I'm simultaneously posting at the end of it and reading from the beginning (I'm on p.45 of it now). My head is swimming with all the info.

FWIW, I really do think the methylfolate, mB12, adB12, and LCF really helped lay the foundation for this approach to gut health. As I said, I have been diagnosed with leaky gut and was having all kinds of gastro symptoms for a long time doing Freddd's "Deadlock Quartet". But eventually the symptoms stopped, as did the on/off reflux I had experienced for years. After things settled with my elimination was still not "normal" like it is now, but it hadn't been normal for years and years so I didn't really realize the difference until starting the RS (and then moving from there to lots of varied probiotics and prebiotic fibers).

Also, one thing that got me solidly into this gut thread was back in December I was flirting around with some nootropics...choline, sulbutiamine, and something called "noopept". After a month or so of that I got so, so sick with a gastro flu...it was *horrible*. Stuff coming out both ends for 24 hours, and the vilest kind of brown/green watery stuff out the back end (sorry for TMI, but it was rather appalling and a little scary). Then it settled to just vomiting for another day. Then that stuff stopped but I held the fever for a couple more days. I basically fasted for four days because everything made me nauseous. After that my blood sugar was down remarkably, and my appetite was totally changed. I haven't wanted the fatty, crappy refined foods I've craved basically all my life. It was a very weird thing altogether. Ultimately beneficial but it took me another month or so to get completely to the other side of it. And I still can't figure out what the choline and stuff would have to do with it, unless it had something to do with my mitochondria.

I mention it because you say something "shifted" for you, and this is how I feel about what happened to me. It was like there was some kind of bacterial shift or something in my gut. Do you think maybe some bad bacteria shifted in yours? Did you have any acute symptoms or was it just a gradual worsening?
 
jepps

jepps

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519
Location
Austria
Sidereal said:
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the meaning of these symptoms. Getting a systemic inflammatory response like this does not mean that cooked starches or RS are "making you very sick". All prebiotics - including her beloved inulin - will produce such symptoms if your intestinal permeability is severe. I used to get severe flu-like reactions at first from 1/4 tsp of RS a week. These reactions went away after many, many months of SLOWLY working on my gut with RS and other prebiotics.
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I agree with the second point of Dr. Grace´s blog referring the ratio RS2/RS3/other fibres.
I also had all symptoms of inflammation she mentionned, but they went away after 3 months, then turned into less inflammation.
I think Ripley mentionned, there should also happen silent positive signs with taking fibres+RS, not only signs of inflammation, this was for me better sleep, so I decided, that inflammation is okay.
But I know others, who had so much bleeding, cramping and inflammation, they stopped potatoe starch and fibres, did 1 month of SIBO protocol, then started with PS+fibres, and had success.
It´s difficult for somebody, who wants to begin with PS to decide, which symptoms are tolerable, Dr. Graces list could be a help.
 
Sherlock

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whodathunkit said:
After a month or so of that I got so, so sick with a gastro flu...it was *horrible*. Stuff coming out both ends for 24 hours, and the vilest kind of brown/green watery stuff out the back end (sorry for TMI, but it was rather appalling and a little scary). Then it settled to just vomiting for another day. Then that stuff stopped but I held the fever for a couple more days. I basically fasted for four days because everything made me nauseous. After that my blood sugar was down remarkably, and my appetite was totally changed. I haven't wanted the fatty, crappy refined foods I've craved basically all my life. It was a very weird thing altogether. Ultimately beneficial but it took me another month or so to get completely to the other side of it. And I still can't figure out what the choline and stuff would have to do with it, unless it had something to do with my mitochondria.
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I'd bet that the benefit came from the profound diarrhea and the subsequent fasting.
 
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