The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Gondwanaland]

I just had a litte insight from upping my T3 yesterday...
It immediately improves:

• bowel movement frequency
• generalized pain/inflammation (no pain ever since dosage increase)
• muscle weakness
• general disposition (could get out of the bed earlier)
• no insomnia (actually having restorative sleep again, which I had improved with magnesium and had declined again)

So I wonder if part of the folks who are doing poorly with RS might also be low in T3 ...

 

[adreno]

I think what I'm going to do for now is cut out the "big feeders" - PS, inulin/FOS and GOS. I think these are the ones that mainly feed the large populations of lactobacilli. Just eating starch/RS from foods is probably enough, without having to supplement also. I'll leave that to the relatively healthy people who can clear lactate.

Instead I'll focus on some of the more "exotic" prebiotics (as @Sidereal called them). I might continue with low doses of psyllium, LAG, acacia gum, pectin and aloe vera. Perhaps add in some mushrooms or algae, if I can tolerate them.

Perhaps these rarer fibers/polysaccharides (that we don't usually get through diet) can stimulate the growth of some strains that have been neglected/overrun by feeding mainly the big guys?

 

[Sidereal]

Perhaps these rarer fibers/polysaccharides (that we don't usually get through diet) can stimulate the growth of some strains that have been neglected/overrun by feeding mainly the big guys?

@adreno, for what it's worth (not much), I believe this is partly what's happening. According to some stool tests posted on various blogs, RS seems to cause a massive expansion of Bacterioides and Bifidobacteria. Perhaps this results in the already endangered beneficial Clostridia and other species getting mowed down even further.

I was making a lot of gains initially on RS but after about 6 months of supplementation, I started sliding backwards (clear regression, not herx). It makes no sense to me that these basic starches and oligosaccharides like potato starch, inulin, FOS etc. are the solution to any disease. Many people eat foods containing these every day and they're still as sick as ever. Also, inulin and psyllium supplements have been on the market for a long time. We'd have seen a lot more accidental recoveries from chronic illnesses if they were the solution to established dysbiosis.

These basic bitch fibers like inulin don't do much for me except pile on more lactate.

 

[whodathunkit]

FWIW, I primarily credit LAG, beta-glucan, and glucomannan(sp?) with some of the big gains I've made in the last week. Things were...for lack of a better word I'll say "stagnating"...a bit using mostly PS and a little bit of the other fibers. But when I changed up I went big on LAG and the other things mentioned above,and kept the PS to 1 or 2 tbsp/day. Things got "unstagnated" pretty quickly.

Also eating tiger nuts, which are quite tasty and have quite a bit of RS. And some banana flour, too.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Same as you Sidereal there was a point for me where those original benefits (ie better sleep/incredible dreaming - I'm assuming from increased butyrate production, and improvements in O.I.) were clearly undermined by negatives from the expansion of 'something'.

Interesting learning curve!

I've also experienced trouble with inulin, pectin (in large doses) but no issues with modest doses of some of the "exotics".

 

[Gondwanaland]

OK guys, I will finally open my jar of LAG then... in a few days. First I will wait for the higher dosage of T3 to stabilize.

 

[Sidereal]

Pectin from various sources was effective for relieving joint pain for me but it caused vicious unrelenting hypoglycaemia so I had to stop it.

Yeah, "something happens" after months of supplementation with the same fibre... things seem to shift in a bad direction. Diversity of fibres seems key to prevention of this excessive expansion of "something", if that's what's truly happening.

 

[adreno]

Perhaps this results in the already endangered beneficial Clostridia and other species getting mowed down even further.

Anyone knows what a good prebiotic for clostridia strains would be?

 

[jepps]

Anyone knows what a good prebiotic for clostridia strains would be?

Dr. Ayers talks about resistent starch: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-been-looking-for.26976/page-114#post-558170

 

[adreno]

Dr. Ayers talks about resistent starch: Dr. Ayers talks about resistent starch: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-been-looking-for.26976/page-114#post-558170

Yeah, but RS seems to feed everything else, too. I was thinking of something more specific.

 

[Sidereal]

Yeah, but RS seems to feed everything else, too. I was thinking of something more specific.

Well, Vegas has spoken in his more recent posts about various sources of sulfated polysaccharides (red and brown algae etc.). Only certain bacterial species can break down the bonds between these sugars so in theory should be preferentially accessible to the species you want to expand unlike RS and inulin which feed all kinds of stuff.

I can tell you from personal experience that things like red algae, bladderwrack, ecklonia cava etc. "work" but they also produce intolerable side effects for me. You could always give these a try and see what happens.

 

[adreno]

Well, Vegas has spoken in his more recent posts about various sources of sulfated polysaccharides (red and brown algae etc.). Only certain bacterial species can break down the bonds between these sugars so in theory should be preferentially accessible to the species you want to expand unlike RS and inulin which feed all kinds of stuff.

Thanks. One thing I worry about with algae is the high iodine content. Are mushrooms also sulfated polysaccharides?

 

[jepps]

bladderwrack, ecklonia cava etc. "work" but they also produce intolerable side effects for me. .

I had a strong reaction to kelp.

Maybe it depends on the dosage. 1 or 2 gramm of each fibre is or type of RS is enough, or only a pinch, but a diversity of fibres. So the bacterias are feeded, but not enough to expand.

 

[adreno]

According to this, red and green algae seems to manageable levels of iodine:

Seaweed has such a large proportion of iodine compared to dietary minimum requirements, that it is primarily known as a source of this nutrient. The highest iodine content is found in brown algae, with dry kelp ranging from 1500-8000 ppm (parts per million) and dry rockweed (Fucus) from 500-1000 ppm. In most instances, red and green algae have lower contents, about 100-300 ppm in dried seaweeds, but remain high in comparison to any land plants. Daily adult requirements, currently recommended at 150 µg/day, could be covered by very small quantities of seaweed. Just one gram of dried brown algae provides from 500-8,000 µg of iodine and even the green and red algae (such as the purple nori that is used in Japanese cuisine) provides 100-300 µg in a single gram.

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/seaweed.htm

But this supplement contains a whopping 6,360 mcg iodine per 1g serving:

http://www.iherb.com/Vibrant-Health-Gigartina-Red-Marine-Algae-90-Veggie-Caps/4983

 

[Sidereal]

@adreno, do you have thyroid disease? I don't know if the iodine content is problematic given the super low doses of algae you're likely to be able to tolerate, like opening one capsule and taking a fraction of that. Regarding mushrooms, no idea, but beta glucan makes me sick so I haven't looked further into it.

 

[Sidereal]

I had a strong reaction to kelp.

Maybe it depends on the dosage. 1 maybe 2 gramm of each fibre is or type of RS is enough, or only a pinch, but a diversity of fibres. So the bacterias are feeded, but not enough to expand.

How much kelp did you take to get a strong reaction? 2 grams is an enormous dose. I'm talking about taking a tiny pinch.

 

[jepps]

How much kelp did you take to get a strong reaction? 2 grams is an enormous dose. I'm talking about taking a tiny pinch.

The 1-2 grams were referred to fibres like inulin, GOS, RS, pectine, glucomannane, baobab etc., but not to algaes. I took 1 capsule with 500 mg.

 

[Asklipia]

Anyone knows what a good prebiotic for clostridia strains would be?

I take Clostridium butyricum. This is Miyarisan, available on-line. I do not get any bad effects from it, on the contrary.

 

[jepps]

I take Clostridium butyricum. This is Miyarisan, available on-line. I do not get any bad effects from it, on the contrary.

Clostridium butyricum

Clostridium butyricum is a strictly anaerobic endospore-forming Gram-positive butyric acid producing bacillus subsisting by means of fermentationusing an intracellularly accumulated amylopectin-like α-polyglucan (granulose) as a substrate. It is uncommonly reported as a human pathogen and is widely used as a probiotic in Asia (particularly in Japan, Korea and China).[1] C. butyricum is a soil inhabitant in various parts of the world, has been cultured from the stool of healthy children and adults, and is common in soured milk and cheeses.[

How much do you take, @Asklipia?

 

[Sidereal]

The 1-2 grams were referred to fibres like inulin, GOS, RS, pectine, glucomannane, baobab etc., but not to algaes. I took 1 capsule with 500 mg.

What happened when you took 500 mg of kelp?