The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[jepps]

swi

What happened when you took 500 mg of kelp?

It was in summer, so I do not remember to each reaction, but diarrhoe, swindle, insommnia for a few days.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Regarding mushrooms, no idea, but beta glucan makes me sick so I haven't looked further into it.

What happens? I am trying to find out why my husband doesn't tolerate mushrooms. Mushrooms are also a rich source of salicylates and iodine (much less than algae, of course).

 

[Sidereal]

What happens? I am trying to find out why my husband doesn't tolerate mushrooms. Mushrooms are also a rich source of salicylates and iodine (much less than algae, of course).

I can't remember exactly. I took beta glucan last summer. It caused painful joints and lymph nodes.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Dr. Ayers talk about, why resistent starch is so terrific for the gut flora:

The bacteria that digest RS, for example, are Clostridia (see EM right, note bacterium dissolving its way into the grain of RS), the type of gut flora that also stimulates Tregs and prevents autoimmunity.

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.at/search?q=resistant starch

The bacteria that digest RS, for example, are Clostridia (see EM right, note bacterium dissolving its way into the grain of RS), the type of gut flora that also stimulates Tregs and prevents autoimmunity.

Clostridium butyricum ..... is common in soured milk and cheeses

I will definetlry have to try it... It might be my missing link... Perhaps I will be able to tolerate RS...

In 2012 I spent 2 months in Germany (eating dairy) and, in addition to having regular BMs (which I only have when I am there), I did blood tests the following day after getting back home and, even though my antibodies were unchanged, my TSH was 2.1 - I had never seen such a low result before hormone replacement (it oscillated from 3.8 to 5.5).

 

[Sherlock]

I can't remember exactly. I took beta glucan last summer. It caused painful joints and lymph nodes.

Do you mean because it's a purported immune stimulant?

There was a time when beta glucan was promoted as an adjunct to rituximab for lymphoma. But I don't think it had any benefit there.

 

[Sherlock]

I will definetlry have to try it... It might be my missing link... Perhaps I will be able to tolerate RS...

I'm thinking that I've noticed that when sweet potato is not very thoroughly cooked, it promotes different bacteria - and not to good effect, either.

In 2012 I spent 2 months in Germany (eating dairy)

Don't they do their milk differently there? Not so pasteurized or something like that?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm thinking that I've noticed that when sweet potato is not very thoroughly cooked, it promotes different bacteria - and not to good effect, either.

I haven't eaten sweet potatoes in almost an year now since they are hi salicylates + goitrogens.

Don't they do their milk differently there? Not so pasteurized or something like that?

I don't know. All I know is that the brand I was consuming isn't from Holstein cows.
When I lived in Italy in the 90's I never had constipation either.

 

[Sidereal]

Do you mean because it's a purported immune stimulant?

There was a time when beta glucan was promoted as an adjunct to rituximab for lymphoma. But I don't think it had any benefit there.

Well, everything discussed on this thread is an immune stimulant it's just that with beta glucan I got the impression it was just causing inflammation and no benefit I could discern.

 

[Gondwanaland]

beta glucan I got the impression it was just causing inflammation and no benefit I could discern.

Well, mushrooms are super high in salicylates. Somehow sals interact with uric acid keeping it high too.

 

[whodathunkit]

For what it's worth (not much), I believe this is partly what's happening. According to some stool tests posted on various blogs, RS seems to cause a massive expansion of Bacterioides and Bifidobacteria. Perhaps this results in the already endangered beneficial Clostridia and other species getting mowed down even further.

I was making a lot of gains initially on RS but after about 6 months of supplementation, I started sliding backwards (clear regression, not herx). It makes no sense to me that these basic starches and oligosaccharides like potato starch, inulin, FOS etc. are the solution to any disease. Many people eat foods containing these every day and they're still as sick as ever. Also, inulin and psyllium supplements have been on the market for a long time. We'd have seen a lot more accidental recoveries from chronic illnesses if they were the solution to established dysbiosis.

These basic bitch fibers like inulin don't do much for me except pile on more lactate.

Side, I missed this yesterday.

I have an observation that may not be worth much, but from what I'm reading it seems like attacking the gut is a whole lot like trying to attack methylation and get it going and evened out...it's a very complex undertaking and seems like everyone needs different things in different amounts. A lot of [sometimes exhausting] trial and error involved before it comes right. Also like methylation, the presence of Lyme and other viruses, as well as snps seems to complicate things for some people. And also, it seems like there can be a very protracted amount of time involved before things even out.

Probably you already realized that, but just sayin' because you sound a little discouraged, also kinda like people get when trying to deal with methylation. I hope you can stick with this because IMO it's definitely another brick in the wall of good health...maybe it should be the foundation of all other therapies, although for myself I doubt I would have responded this quickly, this well to RS and gut therapy if I hadn't already healed myself in many ways with Freddd's protocol. For example, I went through a lot of GI symptoms for the first 8 or so months of Freddd, before that evened out. My feeling is that the LCF and methylfolate helped heal my [leaky] gut cells to a large extent, although obviously those supps couldn't act on the flora problems I obviously have (which are now being addressed with prebiotics and probiotics). And even at that, it's still early days with me on prebiotics. I'm having great results but am completely cognizant that I could backslide any time.

Regardless, this feels right so I'll stick with it. Hope you do, too. Three steps forward and two steps back is still net progress of one step. As I am over-fond of saying, a journey of 1000 miles can be completed in that way. It's not ideal, but if the point is getting there, regardless of the timeframe, then that'll do ya.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Gondwanaland: Izzy, I hadn't heard that about sweet potatoes being a goitrogen. Where did you pick up that nugget?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland: Izzy, I hadn't heard that about sweet potatoes being a goitrogen. Where did you pick up that nugget?

Well, you caught me on a foggy day, and I don't think I bookmarked this info. But it is high sulfur like brassicas (cauliflower, broccoli, spinach), and for one thing too much sulfur chelates selenium (and copper and other non-essential metals), and then there are goitrogen mechanisms to which I wish I had a better link to provide you with right now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen

Of course that cooking reduces goitrogen effect, and when you are dosing your T3 right it shouldn't be a concern at all.

In the last year I have reacted equally bad to both thyroid stimulant and suppressant foods

 

[jepps]

Well, everything discussed on this thread is an immune stimulant it's just that with beta glucan I got the impression it was just causing inflammation and no benefit I could discern.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22328069

After systemic injection of curdlan (= beta glucan), SKG mice developed enthesitis, wrist, ankle, and sacroiliac joint arthritis, dactylitis, plantar fasciitis, vertebral inflammation, ileitis resembling Crohn's disease, and unilateral uveitis. Mannan triggered spondylitis and arthritis. Arthritis and spondylitis were T cell- and IL-23-dependent and were transferable to SCID recipients with CD4+ T cells. SpA was associated with collagen- and proteoglycan-specific autoantibodies.

Candida cell walls consist also of beta glucan. Maybe with systemic candida, the beta glucan of the candida is enough for the immunity, and the dosage makes the poison.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Gondwanaland: Thanks for that info.

FWIW, I think that this gut therapy I've been doing has organically increased my thyroid function and also helped my adrenals. Things just feel a little better and my exercise tolerance is now semi-miraculous compared to what it was a year ago. Methylation is a large part of this but it seems like I've made even more strides in the short time I've been addressing my gut.

@Vegas said somewhere in this thread (between p. 25-35, I believe) that adrenal problems are actually mitochondrial problems. Maybe that's true of thyroid, too. It would make sense given that methylation also addresses problems with mitochondria, so adding in gut therapy just boosts the function of these crucial glands even more.

 

[Sidereal]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22328069

Yeah, I've seen these mouse studies showing arthritis after beta glucan administration. Injecting something like this into the bloodstream probably has very different effects than swallowing it though.

@whodathunkit, I'm glad you're seeing great results. To mind mind gut modification is the most promising avenue for treating this disease. Perhaps I shouldn't post here if I'm coming across as negative because that's not my intention at all. I just think it's important to keep it real for the benefit of all the people who may be new coming to this thread after reading on Richard's site and elsewhere how great taking heaped tablespoons of RS daily is. Truth is, that kind of approach can maim you if you have ME/CFS and even if you take a low-and-slow cautious approach things can inexplicably go south many months into the protocol.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Sidereal: No, no, not what I meant! You're not coming across as negative. Just maybe a litte discouraged. There are such ground-breaking things going on here at PR (in this thread and also with methylation) I just don't want to see anyone give up.

I agree absolutely about keeping expectations real. I hope I haven't come across as too gung-ho or over-exuberant. I'm not kidding when I say I'm completely prepared for a backslide (because that's what usually happens when something goes this well for me).

However, some other things I think people need to keep uppermost in mind is that perseverance and flexibility are keys in pursuing these avenues of healing. NEVER EVER give up! BUT...also don't be rigid. What works for me (dosages, supplements, fibers, probiotics, whatever) may not work for you and you have to find your own path through the forest. Or the swamp. Or however you want to put it.

And the final thing...even if you backslide a bunch, if during your backslide you're still a little bit better off than when you started the journey, that's always a win. We can lose sight of that sometimes. I know I have.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@whodathunkit @Sidereal
I think it is very important to read the negative testimonials as well. I read a local forum for paleo dieting and I see that the benefits the healthy people get from diet alone are the same as the ones we struggle to get from our own diets, methylation and RS. Healthy people get better from diet only. I observed from my own experiences and from reading testimonials that improvement of hormones and neurotransmitters levels starts in the gut and the liver.

I will repost here a link that has been posted in the beginning of this thread and that @whodathunkit liked yeasterday.

http://chriskresser.com/the-thyroid-gut-connection

It helped me to better understand why my thyroid hormones improve when I eat good dairy - and perhaps to find my missing link in C. butyricum? One thing is certain: T3 replacement alone, or tons of selenium won't do it...

 

[jepps]

Truth is, that kind of approach can maim you if you have ME/CFS and even if you take a low-and-slow cautious approach things can inexplicably go south many months into the protocol.

We do not know, what´s going up in the body. As long as we have fungi + viral infections in us, they can make symptoms, damage the muscles and mitochondria. Stool test shows detoxing candida, and I do not have worsening symptoms, so this therapy is very gently, and does no damage to our gut, this is the most important thing.

As long as we have candida, methylation does not function very well, we have too little B9 and B12, too little glutathion. This all will only resolve, if candida is treated.In this case it took 3 years for healing.

My bioenergetic testing shows, there´s something going on. Since coxsackie virus is mobilized, heavy metals and other toxins left the brain. This is the first testing, what shows activity in the brain, and I do this testing since 4 years. The first 2 1/2 years showed nothing, methylation was the beginning of detoxifying toxins, since treating the gut more things change according the this testing. There is much going on in the body, symptoms are better, but I am not healed. But the testing shows, that the body is on healing course - that´s great.

PS: @Sidereal, this study was mentionned in the thread, I remember, sorry for posting it again.

 

[Sherlock]

Well, everything discussed on this thread is an immune stimulant it's just that with beta glucan I got the impression it was just causing inflammation and no benefit I could discern.

Well, I hadn't read all 100+ pages (actually, only the one page ). So I was assuming the RS was discussed as a way to get the good gut flora to crowd out the bad gut flora by manipulating the substrate. But since mushrooms are a fungus, they instead provoke immune responses directly via professional APCs displaying the beta glucans on MHC-2 -- and/or the beta glucans acting as the ligand for TLRs. That was the original rationale for using beta glucans with RTX. (All that ignores the effect of any micronutrient content in mushrooms.)

So beta glucans can involve the distinction of whether any one person here is 1) mainly but not exclusively afflicted by an unconquered infection (e.g., Lyme or an occult jaw bacteria or an especially tricky virus) or else 2) mainly but not exclusively afflicted by overactive immunity (e.g. from excess histamine or leaky gut). Knowing which side of that divide a person is on should presumably guide them in deciding what or what not to consume. What I'd meant to refer to as an immune stimulant could make those people in the first category better and make those in the 2nd category worse.

Similarly, an immune stimulant could possibly harm anyone with pathogens inside their immune cells by promoting expansion of those cells.

Btw, I tried eating a very large amount of sheeps head mushrooms (maitake) years ago but got zero effect. Yet I suffer from overactive mast cells, so apparently mushrooms do not affect mast cells despite their many receptors.

 

[jepps]

@Sidereal, could you do muscle testing? Many people (inclusive me, and @ahmo) have benefit with testing all dosages before taking them.