The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Sidereal

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I basically fasted for four days because everything made me nauseous. After that my blood sugar was down remarkably, and my appetite was totally changed. I haven't wanted the fatty, crappy refined foods I've craved basically all my life. It was a very weird thing altogether.

@whodathunkit, in light of this experience, which I believe reflects some kind of a profound shift in your microbiome, have you considered embarking on the potato hack diet? It's described in great detail on Tim Steele's blog and Mark's Daily Apple has multiple threads about it. It sounds extreme but some people report changes in appetite regulation, accelerating weight loss, improved digestion etc. so I do wonder if it might cause a beneficial microbiome modification similar to what you experienced. There is a growing literature on how body weight, food preferences, cravings etc. are determined by the microbial situation in the gut which shapes our immunity and neuroendocrine signalling. It's no surprise that leptin is emerging as a key inflammatory marker of sorts in ME/CFS research.

I mention it because you say something "shifted" for you, and this is how I feel about what happened to me. It was like there was some kind of bacterial shift or something in my gut. Do you think maybe some bad bacteria shifted in yours? Did you have any acute symptoms or was it just a gradual worsening?

Yes, that's exactly what seems to have happened and it was a rather sudden deterioration. I didn't have symptoms of a new acute infection, just sudden dramatic worsening of old symptoms like orthostatic intolerance and brain fog. Fortunately I've been able to get back on track by switching to other things but it was a sobering experience. Up until that point I falsely assumed it was just a matter of trying to gradually build up to bigger and more frequent doses of RS and other prebiotics.
 

whodathunkit

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Sherlock said:
I'd bet that the benefit came from the profound diarrhea and the subsequent fasting.
Totally agree about the blood sugar, even if I was surprised by the amount it came down and stayed there. However, bad apparently do play a role in blood sugar regulation, too.

My biggest thing is where did the diarrhea come from and why? It was unlike anything I'd experienced in my entire adulthood. I hadn't eaten anything out of the ordinary...in fact, I had some of the same food in the fridge and ate a little of that the day I could eat again, and was fine.

Also, no illness even in childhood has ever ameliorated my appetite for crap food the way this did. I always bounced right back into the cravings.

It really felt like something that had been wrong and bad in my body was finally "letting go" and getting the hell out.

Point being, I wonder if something similar happened to @Sidereal, but the bad didn't necessarily get the hell out, or at least not all the way out. Like maybe something got stirred up and now different steps are needed to correct it. Chelation can go like that sometimes. It's like peeling the onion...just keep going until the onion is gone.

I dunno. I ramble. I'll stop now. I just think it's weird and significant that he had all this improvement and then suddenly stopped improving.

Edited to add: want to make sure it's clear that this all happened BEFORE I got onto the gut stuff. This illness is what prompted me to take a deeper look at this thread, which is what propelled me into RS and all the stuff I'm doing now.
 

Sidereal

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But I know others, who had so much bleeding, cramping and inflammation, they stopped potatoe starch and fibres, did 1 month of SIBO protocol, then started with PS+fibres, and had success.
It´s difficult for somebody, who wants to begin with PS to decide, which symptoms are tolerable, Dr. Graces list could be a help.

Bleeding, wow. What kind of SIBO protocol, @jepps?
 

whodathunkit

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Sidereal said:
Up until that point I falsely assumed it was just a matter of trying to gradually build up to bigger and more frequent doses of RS and other prebiotics.
Gotcha. I hate it when I get my chops busted like that, too. :(

Have you tried chelation and/or busting biofilms? I've never done any biofilm busting myself, but have been hearing good things about it for years. I just bought some stuff to try.

Chelation I have experience with and it's one of the things I credit with my foundational health. I had a hard time with it at first, and it took several rounds, but it's a worthwhile endeavor. Suppposed to be a positive step in restoring a good bacterial balance, too. I don't think I would have reacted as well to methylation protocol or this gut stuff f I hadn't chelated and cleaned myself up a bit before I found PR, for example.

Not crazy about the potato hack idea. Not that I think it's bad, it's just not for me. I couldn't possibly eat that many potatoes for that long. LOL

I *am* doing alternate day fasting and am pretty pleased with that so far. I actually did 5:2 for a couple years about 20 years ago, although it wasn't called that, then...it was just called "crazy". ;) Looking back I realize now those were two of the best years of my life...I lost weight effortlessly despite still carrying on with a fast lifestyle, and had lots of energy to exercise. Wish I'd stuck with it.
 

Sidereal

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@whodathunkit, by chelation I presume you mean Cutler's FDC protocol? Yes, I have tried it but found it very very challenging. I will need to revisit this at some point. You can probably only go so far without dealing with the mercury.
 

whodathunkit

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@Sidereal: Not only Cutler, but I added other things in. Modified citrus pectin (MCP) for chelating lead, iodine for chelating bromides (especially from thyroid gland) as well as mercury, humifulvate, etc. I can't remember what-all now. I did a bunch of research and just used various things. There's a whole bunch of stuff you can do, and you might start with some of the easier things like humifulvate to lighten your load before jumping into Cutler or even just ALA. After the first round it does get easier.

Not sure how to go about it (especially Cutler) if you have mercury fillings, though. I don't. So that may complicate matters if you have them. I think heavy metals play a role in biofilms, too.

Not trying to hijack the thread. Just sayin'. :)
 

whodathunkit

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Sidereal said:
Humic/fulvic acid? I keep meaning to try this. What kinds of effects did you experience from it?
Yes. I used "Complete Metal Cleanse" by Enzymatic Therapy. They have it at iherb.com.

It's supposed to be a "gentler" chelating agent in that it supposed to help bind and pull metals out, not just stir them up, as can happen with improper chelation with stuff like (for example) cilantro alone (cilantro supposed to liberate mercury but not actually bind it and send it to be eliminated).

I did not notice any specific effects from this product alone because I did not use it alone. I riffed off Cutler with the high-dose ALA and DMSA, but I also used EDTA suppositories (yuck), MCP, the product above, cilantro tincture, high-dose liposomal vitamin C, and I think a couple other things. I am anal-retentive about trying to cover all bases. LOL Plus I really cleaned up my diet while doing this, which is key.

But I do think this product is a good one because overall I had really good results with my protocol, and in the grander scheme of things not so difficult a time (although it was bad enough for me but def. not the worst I've heard). And it was recommended to me by someone whose knowledge I trust.

If you started with the Metal Cleanse and MCP they're cheap and gentle. See how that does you. Although I think the MCP is better on lead but since it's a prebiotic fiber it might help you there, too.
 

whodathunkit

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@Sidereal: whaaaaa...? Ocular herpes? Never heard of that.

@Gondwanaland: Maybe MCP will help that. It's not expensive and doesn't taste too bad, kind of malty. It doesn't dissolve well in liquid, so you're basically drinking clumps.

You probably already know that some bad gut organisms are supposed to be quite comfy in a swamp of heavy metals and biofilms. Some may even "feed" off the heavy metals.
 
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I am new on this forum and just spent the last few weeks reading the entire thread. This long thread, along with the links to other excellent information, has re-ignited my own path of experimentation. Obviously we have all been led here for a reason, which is no coincidence.

For decades, I have been fighting chronic fungal sinusitis along with gut issues (chronic bloating, gas and diarrhea) and related depression with little to no improvements. In fact I spent the last months of Oct-Jan with a raging fungal and bacterial sinus infection and nothing, including the strongest pharma antifungals and antibiotics, would not touch it. Then I started following some of the ideas mentioned here. First the one by Gestalt using protocol for candida, then subsequently the RS. Initially my symptoms cleared overnight, as if I never had an infection to begin with. My gut was normal too. It was like night and day. Typically it takes weeks, often months for an infection to clear and reduce the swelling sinus tissue back to normal. All this was accomplished overnight! Considering the years of my failing attempts with doctors, surgery, and aggressive personal experimentation, this experience was remarkable.

This lasted for about 2 weeks, then symptoms began returning. Thinking I was now reacting to the aggressive antifungal dose levels I was dumping into my gut, at this point I stopped antifungals and started a regime of RS and probiotics. After a few days of very unpleasant headaches and severe bloating and gas, I decided the RS was not the right approach. So I stopped taking RS/probiotics to regroup. For the moment however, I am still leaps and bounds ahead from where I started, so by all means this experiment was not a failure. Never before had I had such success in controlling my chronic fungal sinusitis, which I am now convinced is really a gut issue.

After thinking this over carefully, I decided in favor of returning to the direct methods of killing the pathogens residing in my gut vs encouraging good bacteria growth with RS. I have good reason to believe I was exposed to a large dose of pathogens years ago, which had time to take over and create my unhealthy condition. The fact that my healthy gut (at that time) could not overcome these pathogens, the notion of introducing more of good bacteria in my gut may not be enough to overwhelm the pathogens. In short, my experience suggests these fungal pathogens are tough and need to be dealt using tough measures. I always feel like the rug gets pulled out from me when things start to go well... This time I want no prisoners who are hiding somewhere in my body, waiting for another opportunistic moment.

Going back to my honeymoon experience. My previous treatment plan of enzymes (address biofilms) and antifungals was extensive, but I did not rotate them. Big mistake. This time around I have extended the list of (non-pharma) biofilm enzymes | antifungals | antibiotics, and follow a rotation plan. My intention is to stay with this plan long enough (8 weeks or longer) in hopes to knock out all the pathogens, even if it means killing off good bacteria too. Then re-introduce RS and probiotics in a more pathogen free environment. Does this sound like a logical approach?

Again thanks to everyone here. You are helping more people than you know.
 

whodathunkit

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@piccirilli: sounds like a good plan except for abx. For myself, not sure I'd use abx but you're the best judge of your own situation.

Also, curious as to what enzymes you're using in your rotation. Also, antifungals. Are you talking rx antifungals like nystatin or OTC stuff?
 

whodathunkit

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Izzy, no, you don't want to bolus *anything* to do with chelation. Just use normal dosages (whatever's on the instructions) and then work up slowly if you think you need more. Go slow. It's not guaranteed you'll react well to it...I've seen some caveats about using pectin in the last few pages I've read on this thread (between p. 30 and 50). Not bad caveats, but they can cause problems for some people, just like everything causes a problem for someone. ;)

The only reason I bolus dosed potato starch is it's cheap and I was trying to get stuff moving to my distal colon. I didn't really understand what SIBO was before this thread, or the implications of it, but now realize I had some symptoms of that, although not severe.
 
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@piccirilli: sounds like a good plan except for abx. For myself, not sure I'd use abx but you're the best judge of your own situation.

Also, curious as to what enzymes you're using in your rotation. Also, antifungals. Are you talking rx antifungals like nystatin or OTC stuff?

No I am done using pharma drugs. As this point I’ve developed resistive fungal pathogens to the pharmas, particularly aspergillus. Before I stopped treatment with pharmas, I was using injectable forms of antibiotics and antifungals. These were very difficult to obtain, and took a lot of begging and pleading to get. Of course I did not inject. Instead, I cracked open the bottles and used a sinus specific respirator for topical application. The idea was to apply the strongest form of antibiotic/anitfungal directly where the infection manifested, deep in the maxillary sinus cavities. You think that flooding my sinus cavities at the source of the infection would work. Nope, didn’t work any better than topically treating nail fungus doesn't work. These drugs failed miserably because of what I learned here. Namely, it didn’t take into account 1) fungal infection is systemic, 2) biofilm resistance was not taken into account, and 3) not targeting the source of pathogens in my gut. My experiment proved it’s more about the gut than in my sinuses. This was a huge revelation for me, one that I cannot begin to explain.

Specifically here is what I did in my experiment which lasted a little over 2 weeks before some symptoms started returning. On empty stomach early morning, I started with the enzymes to address biofilms: Serrapeptase 240,000 SPU, Bromelain 1,000mg, NAC 1,500mg, Olive Leaf 500mg.

An hour later, I would take a concoction of antifungals consisting of 1) Grape Seed Extract (30 drops manually capped), 2) Pure Oregano Oil (30 drops manually capped), 3)Pure Cinnamon Leaf Oil (30 drops manually capped) and Caprylic Acid 1,800 mg. I took the antifungals twice a day on empty stomach. Yes, my stomach not only tolerated this high dosage, but it cleared all of my symptoms including bad sinus infection, brain fog, and gut bloating.

I believe experiment ended early because I did not rotate these supplements. My next plan of attack, is to include more antifungals in the mix, take as much my body tells me is ok, and use a rotational plan.
 
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ariel

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Asklipia - thanks for the suggestion for the Miyarisan Clostridium butyricum!
May I ask if you took the AOR-3 at all? And if you did, whether you noticed any difference between that and taking the single strain?
I wound up getting some of the Urisense you mentioned. Just arrived the other day and going to try it soon.
I also ordered some S Boulardii, and took my first dose today. Die-off! Again! Irritable and achy. But that's ok, means that it's doing something I guess. This gut process is soo involved.

piccirilli -- "An hour later, I would take a concoction of antifungals consisting of 1) Grape Seed Extract (30 drops manually capped), 2) Pure Oregano Oil (30 drops manually capped), 3)Pure Cinnamon Leaf Oil (30 drops manually capped) and Caprylic Acid 1,800 mg."
Wow that sounds strong. I might need to attempt something like that one day if I don't make much headway with the measures I'm taking.

Thanks for sharing, everyone!
 

Asklipia

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999
Asklipia - thanks for the suggestion for the Miyarisan Clostridium butyricum!
May I ask if you took the AOR-3 at all? And if you did, whether you noticed any difference between that and taking the single strain?
I wound up getting some of the Urisense you mentioned. Just arrived the other day and going to try it soon.
I also ordered some S Boulardii, and took my first dose today. Die-off! Again! Irritable and achy. But that's ok, means that it's doing something I guess. This gut process is soo involved.
Yes we took AOR-3 at the beginning. It was helpful. I feel that just the C. butyricum of Miyarisan is as helpful if not more. This could be because the problem really is some kind of Clostridium difficile which is antagonized by the C. butyricum, or it could be because we are getting healed and there are much less bad reactions to anything. But I finished the bottle of AOR-3 and cannot test which one is the reason! Sorry!
S. boulardii for the moment we cannot take, the die-off is too bad, even though less than before. I have some Primal Defence which I try every couple of weeks to see about that. It contains the S. boulardii which I think is the culprit.

I do not want to hurt my body in any way so I am taking it easy, seeing that we seem to have continuous improvement, why rock the boat?

At the moment I am following the Sanum therapy that @jepps generously mentioned here and after. I have nearly finished the first 10 days of exmykehl and it is certain that it is producing die-off, but much more subtle and tolerable than die-off from S. boulardii for example. I am quite happy at having found something (Thanks :thumbsup::balloons::thumbsup: @jepps :angel::angel::angel:) that seems to work and is gentle as well. When I have finished the first 10 days of exmykehl and the following 10 days of fortakehl I shall report.

At the same time we take miyarisan + bifid. longum + (VSL#3 every two or three days) + LAG + konjac + (a couple of other powders rotated).
Everything is fine. Bad reactions = 20 minutes after the Sanum treatment, about 40 minutes of gloom, a pimple every other day or so, some bouts of irresistible tiredness every four days.
Good luck to all!
:hug: Asklipia
 
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jepps

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I do not want to hurt my body in any way so I am taking it easy, seeing that we seem to have continuous improvement, why rock the boat?

Thank you, Asklipia, for posting this. I´m sure, treating fungi as underlying cause is important for regaining our health.
Moreover, Sanum supports the gut flora, and does not damage the gut flora in any way. We do not know, what damages devitalizing substances do in our gut.
And as candida needs to be treated for at least 1-2 years to be solved, we need treatments, which do not do any damage in the long road.:)

In building up the gut flora with RS+prebiotics+probiotics, addressing methylation, as candida blocks methylation and blocks immunity, so that we have no defense against microbes, addressing candida homoepathically, which turns candida back in the non-pathogenic form, immunity builds up, and this is the preconditiong to fight underlying viral and bacterial infections.
 
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