The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

jepps

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Thank you, Asklipia, for your interesting infos, and the link to @Gemma
Is Bifodo longum BB356 the same strain as Bifido longum (without BB356)?
I did liver flushes, and my gall bladder was free from stones (according to ultra sound), but 1 year later all stones were there again.
slayadragon wrote here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/pancreas-gallbladder-and-cfs.611/#post-17908 about gall bladder problems and mould, she suggested already back then:) the gall bladder a holding tank for fungi. After treating fungi, she detoxed black mucus.



Regarding bifidobacterium longum BB356 I found from Dr. Grace
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/12/high-dose-potato-starch-can-make-you_22.html

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/12/high-dose-potato-starch-can-make-you.html

Dr. Grace talks about high dosage PS (over 40g daily)
After several citizen science N=1 experiments, we can observe now how high dosage potato starch may re-inforce these 'chronic illness' gut profiles by its anti-prebiotic effects where it lowers beneficial flora in the gut that are integral and vital for protecting the upper gut from pathogens like E coli and other alcohol producers, increases leanness, GLP1, revving up fat burning and carbohydrate metabolism:
--Christensenella
--Bifidobacteria longum
--Akkermansia (see prior post: high dosage raw potato starch tanks Akkermansia)
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-and.html

She suggests:

Other precautions:

+ Don't take green banana flour or potato starch alone without insoluble plant fibers or cooked resistant starch (eg brown rice, beans, lentils, whole cooked tubers, carrots, 3-5 servings fibrous vegetables or fruit)

+ Don't take green banana flour or potato starch at high dose without the entire plant fiber spectrum for a long period of time: inulin, oligosaccharides (eg onions, leeks, chives, yacon root, Jerusalem sunchokes, asparagus, inulin supplementation, etc). You may likely skew your gut populations.

You may starve and kill these tender and immunoprotective populations:
--Bifidobacteria (many species just do not eat raw RS2; yet all eat cooked RS3, inulin, oligosaccharides, other fiber)
--Enterococcus
--Lactobacillus (none eat RS2; all eat cooked RS3)
--Good E coli
Thank you for your wishes! I wish you also greetings from my country to you and your family!:):balloons::hug:

Regards jepps
 
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Asklipia

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Is Bifido longum BB356 the same strain as Bifido longum (without BB356)?
There are several strains of Bifidobacterium longum. Some have been studied more than others. BB356 is one of the most studied strains of Bifidobacterium longum. I think isolated in Japan at the beginning of the 20th century.

To come back to some information you gave earlier about your candida treatment using mucor racemosus.
I have ordred some eye drops, called Pleo Muc I think in the US, Mucokehl in Germany and I + my husband have started seeing better!!!!! For the first couple of days we had terrible blurry vision, then a steady improvement all of last week. The eyes feel different, in a positive way, but elsewhere something bad is happening, a kind of liver detox, and furry tongue, as well as two hours of despair a day, unrelated to any real problem. All this from a couple of eye drops!!!!!!

So I suppose your treatment for candida must be very effective! For the moment we kept to the eyes…. Enough is enough. I can't help wondering how much of myopia is NOT due to some kind of eye infection, a bit like what I was saying about diabetes.

Oh, and @Gemma put me on the track of Trehalose for cataracts. Which brought me to these NEW RUSSIAN DROPS called Vizomitin, supposed to cure all eye inflammations, cataracts, glaucoma, dry eyes, retinal degeneration. If I do not get complete results with the Mucokehl I might take a short holiday to Moscow to get them prescribed.
Best wishes! Today has brought a lot of hope! :angel:
Asklipia
 
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jepps

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Asklipia, thank you for the good news:)

As Sanum is a fungi treatment, maybe the eye symptoms of you and your husband are fungi related? This is very interesting, as my mum also has inflamed and allergic eyes. No wonder, if she has candida, she has coffee and cake each day, one in the morning, one in the evening:ill:
Sanum has to be done very long, for 1-2 years, my therapeuth told me, and yes, I have also mild liver and kidney detox symptoms, sometimes sore throat.

I wish you, that you can und your husband save your money, and must not go to Moscow. Or you must not go for a health trip there, but only for the holiday trip! Luck and wishes to you and him!:balloons: jepps
 

South

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This explains why there are such spectacular results with Bifidodacterium longum.
@Asklipia, may I ask more about your own experience with bifidobacterium longum? How did you take it (swallowed as capsules, or some other way), for how long, what dose (if you remember) and how long did it take to notice symptoms or clearance of symptoms from this?

Any info from your experience would be much appreciated.
 

Asklipia

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@Asklipia, may I ask more about your own experience with bifidobacterium longum? How did you take it (swallowed as capsules, or some other way), for how long, what dose (if you remember) and how long did it take to notice symptoms or clearance of symptoms from this?
I started taking b. longum as an experiment with other probiotics, probably since April 2014, I do not really remember. It was present in multi-probiotics we were taking (Primal Defense of Garden of Life). Eventually we moved to single strain probiotics and we tried the b. longum BB536, sold under the name Urisense, started 1st december 2014. I think this is also sold by LifeExtension (Bifido GI Balance) but we did not try it.
In the beginning, we swallowed capsules, one a day, then two a day (morning and evening). Immediately we noticed good effects, so we tried cultivating it. We do this also to check that the product we receive is alive. Urisense was alive and kicking!!! 17 hours undisturbed with organic milk in a hermetically closed thermos flask around 32 °C. The surprise was that the result tasted exactly like a kind of frothy cheese which I had when I was small. Of course we did not drink this before having taken the capsules for a week, because a gulp would contain A LOT of bacteria, maybe inducing too much die off.
Both of us had urogenital die off, in the week following the start of supplementation. A kind of incredible happiness at times, and deep depression at other times, a sure sign of candida die off. Much more bile flow too. Other results are more general and similar to other bifido strains we tried.
We are still taking it, together with other probiotics at other times of day, and LAG + konjac powder + guar gum (Solufibre) + all kinds of other prebiotics in a rotating fashion.
We take 2 capsules a day, and a gulp of our culture when available (not every day).
 

ahmo

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@Asklipia I've been following this conversation with interest. I heard someone suggest during the recent Digestion Sessions presentations to open probiotics, add water, and let them sit for an hour or so to increase potence or viability. I've been doing this, don't know how to judge the efficacy. cheers.
 

Sasha

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This is an interesting question, how to take probiotics. I started VSL3 some weeks ago and found that I couldn't take more than a quarter of a sachet without problems. I also found that if I took it at the same time as my dose of PS, it seemed to be problematic.

I take it by putting the powder in my mouth, letting it dissolve, and swallowing it. The instructions say to take it with cold water and maybe I'm murdering a ton of bugs by letting my salivary enzymes kill them, but there's a quarter of a trillion in there and I read somewhere that you want to be populating your whole digestive tract, including your mouth.

Right thing to do? Wrong thing?
 

Asklipia

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My protocol is specific for treating candida and mold: I took/take according to my therapeuth:

- first 10 days exmykehl D3 (1 tab morning and 1 evening) for Candida and gut milieu, then
- 10 days fortakehl D3 (1 tab morning and 1 evening) for gut milieu, then
- 5 days (monday to friday) mucokehl D3 for Candida 1 tab in the morning, Nigersan D3 for mold in the evening 1 tab
- 2 days (saturday and sunday) exmykehl for Candida and gut milieu, (1 tab morning and 1 evening)

This protocol should be done (mucokehl+nigersan MO-FR, exmykehl SA-SO) several months or years, until candida+molud are treated.
@jepps you have me very interested indeed! I can see from the effect on my liver that candida is being attacked just by a few drops of Mucokehl in the eyes!

I notice that "exmykehl" is not mentioned in Dr George's protocol. Do you know what it is for?
Also all your tabs are "D3", while on is protocol they are "D4" and "D5" and he uses caps as well. Could you please explain if this does not take too much of your time?

Thank you!
 

jepps

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@jepps you have me very interested indeed! I can see from the effect on my liver that candida is being attacked just by a few drops of Mucokehl in the eyes!

I notice that "exmykehl" is not mentioned in Dr George's protocol. Do you know what it is for?
Also all your tabs are "D3", while on is protocol they are "D4" and "D5" and he uses caps as well. Could you please explain if this does not take too much of your time?

Thank you!
Of course not, you all help me so much!:)
Exmykehl is specific for candida. It´s contains the hyphen form of the candida albicans (the parasitic pathogene form) and the saprophytic form (not pathogenic, it eats waste products) and the candida parapsilosis, as well as penicillium roquefort, another fungi. D3 is a suppository for rectal application, it is very effective against all types of candida, pathogene or not pathogene.
It is a mix of the 3 products pefrakehl, albicansan and fortakehl.

Detox symptoms are on the right side, yes.

Kindly regards, jepps:balloons:
 

jepps

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I found this interesting from Dr. Grace:

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.at/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-and.html

AVERAGE DAILY FIBER ESTIMATES
8-40 GRAMS RS
8-18 GRAMS NSP
2-8 GRAMS OLIGOSACCHARIDES
Get the range of 'fiber', RS and plant/meat glycans:

- Milk Oligosaccharides - the carbohydrates found in raw cow, sheep, goat and human breast milk, dairy products and fermented soft and hard cheeses.

- Resistant Starch (RS) - the most common storage carbohydrate of plants. Found in tubers, roots, green bananas, green plantains, legumes, peas, oats, nuts, carrots, maize, sedge nutlets, and grains.

- Inulin and Oigosaccharides (OS) - (inulin, fructo-oligosaccharides, galacto-oligosaccharides, xylo-oligosaccharides) the second most common storage carbohydrate of plants including chicory root and its greens (aka endive), onion, leek, yacon root, Jerusalem artichokes, dandelion leaves and roots, asparagus, ripe bananas/plantains, legumes, lentils, oats, whole rice, red/black/purple rice, maize, grains.

- Non-Starch Polysaccharides (NSP): (found in small and large amounts in nature)
Arabinogalactan - a storage carbohydrate of trees and many plants (carrots, radish, black gram beans, pear, maize, red wine, tomatoes, sorghum, coconut meat)
Arabinoxylan - found in whole grains, psyllium, steel cut oats
Glucomannan - found in the cell walls of certain plant roots and wood, also a component of bacterial and yeast membrane. Konjac roots contain 40% by dry weight and are a great source of glucomannan
β-Glucans - found in oats, barley, whole grains, shiitake, oyster, maitake, mushrooms, dates, yeast
Pectin - found in avocados, berries, citrus, fruits, vegetables
Gums and mucilages - found in seed extracts (guar, locust bean), tree exudates (gum acacia, algal polysaccharides (alginates, agar, carrageenan), psyllium
This could be a suggestion, how to mix the quantities of several RS and fibres.
 
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Vegas

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Interesting, @Vegas. We are discussing in a few other threads how to increase NADPH, and from what I can glean from your post above, this would include structural polysaccharides? So xylan would be a good choice here, can you name others? How can I tell which prebiotics would be included in this group, versus the starch based group? Thanks.
Well we have pectin, gum, cellulose, and hemicellulose. Cellulose is a polymer of b-1,4 linked glucose. That beta 1-4 linkage is important insofar as it is tougher to chemically severe (hydrolysis). This and other structural features make it "resistant."

Hemicelluloses are very diverse and consist of polymers of quite a number of different sugars, most notably galactose, xylose, mannose, rhamnose, & arabinose. Of course these structural or non-starch polysaccharides comprise a very large number of potential prebiotics as there are are countless combinations of these, like arabinogalactan, galactoglucomannan, and glucoxylan. Then there are also numerous other variables, like anomerization, side-chain configurations, molecular-weight, etc. that influences the properties these carbohydrates may have on the host immune response.

The combination of polysaccharides conveys different properties and obviously different symptomatic responses, based upon what we have observed anecdotally. This is likely, in large part, a feature of the host's microbiota, which, like ME/CFS is largely resistant to change. Reishi mushrooms, for example, may produce a radically different effect than that of Turkey Tail based upon the predominant polysaccharide compositions, not to mention a host of other properties inherent in the plant. Additionally, even single plant species can have variability, and these properties are further modified by bacterial enzymes, which modulates the effects of these various complex carbohydrates on the host.

In this way, there has to be a concerted effort among host and microbe. The fact that hydrolysis is predicated on availability of ATP absolutely implies that human degradation of carbohydrates is diminshed as ones capacity to produce energy and a robust immune response is also diminished. The immune response is largely a feature of the ability to limit reactive oxygen species. Plant compounds are simultaneously anti-oxidants and immunostimulants, and anti-inflammatories, but often result in net increases in inflammation and oxidation.

The study of the human intestinal microbiome, and, in particular their enzymatic capacity has now demonstrated that many of these microbial organisms participate in the host's (human) creation of energy. The capacity and characteristics of microbial carbohydrate enzyme degradation is a feature of a healthy microbiome and one's immune fitness. I think this is one of the less popularized recent discoveries that deserves more attention.

The NSP (non-starch-polysaccharides) have special immunomodulating capacity because many of these cellulose materials fully escape all human digestion. Humans have a total of less than 20 enzymes able to degrade carbohydrates. Some single bacterial species have 250+. When we look closer though, we can see that there are some very preserved microbial features that relate to carbohydrate utilization that are universal in humans, but limited to a relatively select group of organisms.

So hemicellulose is, in my estimation, a places where, if you wanted to shut down the immune response and energy biosynthesis, one would look.

"The prevalence of XyGs in the human diet suggests that the mechanism by which bacteria degrade these complex polysaccharides is highly important to human energy acquisition."

(XyG is xyloglucan, a hemicellulose)

Among the bacterial glycoside hydrolase enzymes, in my view a singular family stands out. This is an enzyme group that breaks down cellulose and has a feature-set commonly possessed by Bacteroides and Streptomyces. I think that importance of these organisms is that both play major roles in (glyco)sphingolipid biosynthesis, which likely mitigates the effects of endotoxins. Additionally, the antimicrobial properties of streptomyces likely suggests that it's niche role has to be accompanied by a strategy to mitigate the free radical consequences of displacing microbes. In other words, if your killing bacteria and fungi in the gut, you better protect the host.

Soil bacteria and fungi that degrade the cell walls of plants definitely intersect here insofar as these are the primary inhabitants of this niche. Streptomyces is a SBO, but so are all of these anerobes. They are also an essential part of the nitrogen cycle, which shines a light squarely on organisms that populate the rhizobiome. Algal sources are bundled with many of these same plant fibers, so cellulolytic organisms can feast on this stuff.

I believe cellobiose and xyloglucan oligosaccharides are likely to be the most immunostimulating of all prebiotics, but not suited for general consumption. I'm still trying to find that mix that fufills the metabolic/immunomodulatory roles that is most "anti-inflammatory," I expect there will be some degree of transferability despite obvious individual variability.
 

ariel

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Yes, this all connects nicely. Candida would prefer the gallbladder and urinary tract because these are alkaline places, the bile is alkaline and would protect the fungi from acid which they don't like.
This explains why there are such spectacular results with Bifidodacterium longum. A strain that acidifies and helps the gallbladder and brings down blood sugar. If the gallbladder is handicapped by a proportion of candida, then bringing a bacteria that acidifies, like Bifido longum, would clear the gallbladder for a while and bring relief.
That is super interesting re B Longum being a strain that acidifies.
And of course the gallbladder and urinary tract are alkaline, so that is why candida prefer it. I never connected the dots til now, so Thank You very much!

I will definitely order the specific strain you mention.
Do you know if there are other stains that acidify? How interesting that this one strain does that.
 

ariel

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Anyone have experience with triphala?
I've used triphala on and off for years. It never caused me any problems. Though I did recently get it in a powdered form and it tastes horrible - at least to me! So maybe try it in the pressed pill form.
I believe that there has been quite a bit of research done on amla.
 

Sidereal

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Supplementing any lactate producing bacteria such as lactobacilli or bifidobacteria makes me worse. FM-type muscle pain, anxiety, diuresis... just feeling gross overall.
 

South

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Do you know if there are other stains that acidify?
Actually, I've read that many (but not all, apparently) lactobacilli type probiotics and bifido type probiotics produce acid. I was reading a lot about these a year ago, including which of them added to sterile milk will produce yogurt - they consume the lactose in the milk and produce acid, changing the milk into a tart yogurt.

Lactobacillus acidophilus, for example, is called "acidophilus" because in Latin that means "acid loving".

I wish I'd kept the links, but I didn't.
 
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I actually am doing much better the last 2 days and will give update in future if things start to go better. When I eat the carbs my oral candida flares up, but I am spraying/mouthwashing colloidal silver and aloe vera on it and it is working. Yesterday I saw for the first time in years improvement in my urological infection and I was able to add one more second to the Frolov breathing device (google it if you don't know about it, it's too long to talk about it now, but it's something phenomenal and amazing, which I do believe can help any decease to be cured, a lot of people have cured even diabetes, cancer, MS and much more with it...), which is always a strong sign that my body is doing better. Furthermore, today I got almost not psichycal symptoms after eating the carbs for the first time. And this is just day #6. I will not be hurry to be happy but I am starting to think that after years of struggling I have found the right way. Despite the fact I am too far away from its end and more years are to come if I ever reach it, this is the very first time I saw SOME positive progress just in few days, after years of spending tousands of dolars for remedies with zero effect.
Re CS, I stopped ingesting it and I spit it after I mouthwash with it as it is killing the good bacteria, this was the advice of Dr McCombs and I believe he is correct as I improved a lot after listening to him.
Re probiotics, I am actually doing great with them and I doubt I will have regular BM if I do not take them. Also I seriously doubt one must first kill candida and later apply them,as I see this not possible. The biggest problem with repopulation of the gut is the alkaline PH set by candida, in which the good bacteria does not do well. So unless you start to popoulate the gut steadily, so the acid PH produced of the bacteria is slowly overcoming the alkalnie PH by candida, you will never be able to successfully repopulate it as candida will always come back due to the lack of good bacteria, and the good bacteria will not be able to rapidly establish a place there due to the wrong PH.
What are your toughts behind the opposite statement?
Re Frolov device.
While it is something really powerful and good for all diseases, I need to warn you about two things. First is that people who are selling it may connect it to east spirit philosophies, which I am completely against to as an Orthodox Christian, and which I do believe may confuse you and hinder your recovery, second is, if you use the device, never, I repeat, never overwhelm yourself and stop breathing immediately after the first same sign of getting tired/uncomfortable. Also keep your consciousness active and do not try to relax and go down into meditation like state. The right state you need to be in while breathing is active, feeling burst of energy, feeling slight euphoric but with completely clear mind. Best of luck to all of us. As this is something not popular, questions are welcomed on PM or email phpshindaroff at gmail dot com.