The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[adreno]

The gelatin has been setting off such unpleasant reactions in me that I felt like it had completely wiped me out. And was thinking that after all this work on my gut my energy levels were unfortunately no better. I was starting to despair but I finally just figured out today that when I remember to regularly take the homemade liposomal Vit C that I make, my body copes much better. I have a feeling that the lipo C is a huge key in all this for me.

Gelatin I think will help with collagen production, and for this vitamin C is needed too. Besides that, gelatin is a source of glycine, which might set off detox reactions. Also, glycine functions as an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the CNS, which can make people feel more fatigued. Glycine also inhibits cortisol. I get severely fatigued both from pure glycine as well as gelatin.

 

[ariel]

Gelatin I think will help with collagen production, and for this vitamin C is needed too. Besides that, gelatin is a source of glycine, which might set off detox reactions. Also, glycine functions as an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the CNS, which can make people feel more fatigued. Glycine also inhibits cortisol. I get severely fatigued both from pure glycine as well as gelatin.

Ahhh....! Thanks sooo much Adreno, that makes much more sense.
I couldn't work out what was happening. I read somewhere that gelatin sets of second-stage liver detox, but didn't really know what that meant.
Did you continue with the gelatin? Perhaps it is not worth me taking it. Though my reactions to it have become a little less extreme over the last few weeks. I tend to keep pushing through when I have a detox reaction to something, in the possibly misguided idea that it is better out than in.

 

[Sidereal]

I get a paradoxical reaction with gelatin and glycine. I become alert, agitated and anxious for an hour or two and I develop severe muscle pain which lasts 24 hours. They worsen excitotoxicity / glutamate excess for me. Unsurprisingly the same thing happens when I take another supplement that's supposed to help the gut lining - glutamine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Gelatin wastes vitamin B1 (and potassium?). Glycine and glutamine increase the need for magnesium for the glutathione conjugation. When supplementing B1 be sure to up the potassium and magnesium intake accordingly.

 

[ariel]

I get a paradoxical reaction with gelatin and glycine. I become alert, agitated and anxious for an hour or two and I develop severe muscle pain which lasts 24 hours. They worsen excitotoxicity / glutamate excess for me. Unsurprisingly the same thing happens when I take another supplement that's supposed to help the gut lining - glutamine.

Hmm... sounds familiar! Though I haven't been getting severe muscle pain, more agitated discomfort! Not pleasant.

And thank you Gondwanaland. I regularly take magnesium. Will make sure to take some potassium. Don't have any B1 but have been taking a general B complex.

I think I will persist with the gelatin though. Everything I've read about it makes sense. Traditional cultures wouldn't have eaten as much muscle meat as what the typical Western diet has. Will stop taking it everyday, as it seems to build in my system with daily intake. I'm taking tiny amounts to what some seem to consume, some on paleo forums are taking 2 tablespoons, so not being able to tolerate this must be an indication that I haven't got to the root of the dysbiosis yet.

I also wanted to mention that I've been making beet kvass. I read about it in Tim Steele's blog - Vegetable Pharm. As expected I didn't tolerate it so well at first, but am now fine with it.
Sauerkraut is still on my list. Beet kvass is just so easy that even when I'm feeling horrible I can manage to get some going. You basically just cut a beetroot into cubes and add about a teaspoon of sea salt to say about 5-6 cups of water. Leave for three days. There are more precise directions on his site and on the web. It is really nice with some lemon juice squeezed in when you are ready to drink. My body also seems to crave good salt, so I probably make it more salty than recommended.

 

[South]

Gelatin and glycine have been on my mind lately as well - and since several other people too, perhaps we could start a separate thread about it? I don't have much to contribute yet, so I'd not be the best person to start it though.

 

[adreno]

I get a paradoxical reaction with gelatin and glycine. I become alert, agitated and anxious for an hour or two and I develop severe muscle pain which lasts 24 hours. They worsen excitotoxicity / glutamate excess for me.

These studies demonstrate that the glycine modulatory site on the synaptic NMDA receptor is not saturated under baseline conditions and that increased glycine concentrations can markedly increased NMDA-receptor-mediated excitatory postsynaptic currents (EPSCs) in hippocampal neurons in both dissociated cell culture and in slice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8930282

Pain is associated with increased NMDA activation. As you know, glutamine can also convert into glutamate and stimulate the NMDA. Glycine increases nerve pain for me, and glutamine makes me wired and anxious, plus gives me headaches.

 

[Sidereal]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8930282

Pain is associated with increased NMDA activation. As you know, glutamine can also convert into glutamate and stimulate the NMDA. Glycine increases nerve pain for me, and glutamine makes me wired and anxious, plus gives me headaches.

Yes, same here, feels like nerves are exposed or on fire. If I take collagen, glycine, DMG, glutamine, aspartate etc. my symptoms are glutamate/NMDA mediated, not "detox" or cytokine-mediated inflammatory type symptoms I get with prebiotics. Actually, I have benefitted from reducing my protein intake to about as low as I can safely go. The glycine issue is confusing. For normal people glycine is inhibitory and yet is it not an NMDA receptor co-agonist with glutamate?

 

[adreno]

The glycine issue is confusing. For normal people glycine is inhibitory and yet is it not an NMDA receptor co-agonist with glutamate?

It is confusing. It works through different receptors. It is explained here:

Glycine accomplishes several functions as a transmitter in the central nervous system (CNS). As an inhibitory neurotransmitter, it participates in the processing of motor and sensory information that permits movement, vision, and audition. This action of glycine is mediated by the strychnine-sensitive glycine receptor, whose activation produces inhibitory post-synaptic potentials. In some areas of the CNS, glycine seems to be co-released with GABA, the main inhibitory amino acid neurotransmitter. In addition, glycine modulates excitatory neurotransmission by potentiating the action of glutamate at N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11396606

I think if someone already has a tendency towards excitotoxicity, then glycine might unfavourably tip the balance, but in healthy people it is not a problem.

 

[Sidereal]

I think if someone already has a tendency towards excitotoxicity, then glycine might unfavourably tip the balance, but in healthy people it is not a problem.

Right, that's what I figured.

 

[Vegas]

It is confusing. It works through different receptors. It is explained here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11396606

I think if someone already has a tendency towards excitotoxicity, then glycine might unfavourably tip the balance, but in healthy people it is not a problem.

Products of the glycine cleavage system include NH3 (ammonia) and 5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate. This results in a triple whammy. Very ATP intensive reaction (pretty sure your brain wants that ATP), accumulation of substrate for MTHFR (hello B2), excessive demand on glutamine synthetase, which of course is right at the heart of the nitrogen metabolism and catalyzes the condensation of ammonia and glutamate to create glutamine.

DMG is less likely to cause problems, but will still result in glycine getting shunted to this inhibited reaction. Tetrahydrofolate and 5-MTHF supplementation will obviously also effect this quite dramatically.

So what helps this, well cortisol does increase the reaction rate, but you don't want more of this stress hormone. What you really want is microbially-synthesized butyrate.

 

[adreno]

So what helps this, well cortisol does increase the reaction rate, but you don't want more of this stress hormone.

I definitely want more cortisol. Mine is extremely low.

 

[Jay franklin]

I definitely want more cortisol. Mine is extremely low.

If only I could make money selling off my excess cortisol.

 

[adreno]

If only I could make money selling off my excess cortisol.

The HPA is in large part regulated by the immune system, which in large part is regulated by the microbiome. So perhaps there is hope for us both that it can be normalized.

 

[Jay franklin]

I have tried to find topical applications of these same plant compounds from which the prebiotics are derived to test these on a couple of little pre-cancerous lesions. They disappeared with acetylated/sulfated mannan/xylan products. Same thing happened with oral doses of some of the prebiotics, until I pushed it too fast.

So, if someone has any experience with prebiotics and precancerous lesions improving, then I will say you are affecting the same processes involved in ME/CFS at a cellular level.

I have had an interesting reaction to my second stint using an XOS made from corn cobs (not sure this was intended for human consumption, perhaps intended for lab rats?), plus GOS (Bimuno) and psyllium as base prebiotics for the last several weeks. In addition to improved energy stability, I had an outbreak of what appears to by shingles or herpes simplex on my face not far where I have had lifelong problems. It is starting to dry up. In addition I have had small spots appear on my forehead that reminded of what it was like when I used Imiquimod/aldara for a couple months to treat sun damaged skin. The aldara is something that causes incipient cancers to appear and slough off. So far there has been some slight clearing of spots but not as much sloughing off as I hope will ultimately occur. Who knows, I guess this could all be coincidental?

I think the XOS i have been using is actually quite potent. The first time I used it, it caused hypolgycemic-like mini-crashes daily.

The backdrop for me is a personal history of melanoma, my mother with melanoma and a sister with breast cancer, so the prebiotic approach to address this holds great interest.

 

[Tunguska]

I guess I'm half-lucky, I've taken large amounts of gelatin and glycine and glutamine and never had extra pain from them. The only one that gives some pain is sarcosine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Vegas do you have any suggestions on how to best use psyllium? Soaked, capsule, early/late in the day/night, with or w/o food, dosage...

I have found it to be goitrogenic and inflammatory, but is the only thing so far to help with constipation.

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas do you have any suggestions on how to best use psyllium? Soaked, capsule, early/late in the day/night, with or w/o food, dosage...

I have found it to be goitrogenic and inflammatory, but is the only thing so far to help with constipation.

I don't think I would soak the psyllium. I'm assuming you are suggesting that this would increase their tolerability, similar to how lectin-concentrated foods like nuts or legumes are prepared.

Capsule or powder. I think this depends on how much you are taking. The mucilage means it will stick to your teeth, so a capsule is more convenient.

Time of day: I think this depends upon if taking it elicits any apparent adverse symptoms and the timing of these subsequent symptoms. There is absolutely some variability as to when these prebiotics will have maximal effect, and of course their is individual variability. I would typically get achiness an hour to two after resistant starch, for example, but with psyllium the backlash occurs in day two or three, if I overdo it. There are lots of considerations here, including does it overstimulate you I honestly don't think the timing has any effect on the efficacy, it's more about working around the adverse effects. One can, to some extent, manipulate the timing so that symptoms occur concomitant with better hormonal/GSH peaks or while one is sleeping.

Food? May be some advantages here, but I don't have a preference for food. As long as you are human, you have no inherent ability to hydrolyze the chemical bonds that make these prebiotics special. Maybe others can add their comments about benefits of foods.

Recall that I only take very small doses. In fact, I think this is very important. Large doses may be changing the metabolic output in ways that are not beneficial. When I generically speak of these prebiotics as being "anit-inflammatory," it should be noted that ALL prebiotics have an ability to increase inflammation because this is about balance. Let me elaborate when I get a few more minutes.

Goitrogenic, you don't need that. Tthink about why something like red or brown algae might induce thyroid hormonal secretion. Well, yes because of the iodine, but I would suggest that there is a reason that these prebiotics are so rich in iodine. That is because if you are going to generate energy, the macronutrient needs to also have some ability to counter the ROS.

 

[Sasha]

My psyllium powder (Source Naturals) says on the packet how much water you have to take with it. I read somewhere that you can get intestinal blockages with it if you don't use enough water. I'm surprised that it's OK to take it dry as a capsule or just in food.

 

[Vegas]

My psyllium powder (Source Naturals) says on the packet how much water you have to take with it. I read somewhere that you can get intestinal blockages with it if you don't use enough water. I'm surprised that it's OK to take it dry as a capsule or just in food.

Yes, of course, take with water. Again, I am talking about very small quantities. I've been taking 1/2 capsule. Unless you want it stuck to your teeth, you have to mix with water.