The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?
- Thread starter Ripley
- Start date
@pastet89 Have you tried leaving out the kefir and yogurt - I ask because I, and a good number of long term candida sufferers, have actually improved upon leaving out cultured foods/probiotics, while continuing to take antifungals (like sf722).
One theory out there is that for x amount of time, to take antifungals and follow a no-sugar diet, until such time as you think the candida is somewhat less, then to add probiotics/cultured foods in then. Something about the probiotics actually making things worse until candida is somewhat reduced (does not have to be all gone before starting the probiotics).
One theory out there is that for x amount of time, to take antifungals and follow a no-sugar diet, until such time as you think the candida is somewhat less, then to add probiotics/cultured foods in then. Something about the probiotics actually making things worse until candida is somewhat reduced (does not have to be all gone before starting the probiotics).
I actually am doing much better the last 2 days and will give update in future if things start to go better. When I eat the carbs my oral candida flares up, but I am spraying/mouthwashing colloidal silver and aloe vera on it and it is working. Yesterday I saw for the first time in years improvement in my urological infection and I was able to add one more second to the Frolov breathing device (google it if you don't know about it, it's too long to talk about it now, but it's something phenomenal and amazing, which I do believe can help any decease to be cured, a lot of people have cured even diabetes, cancer, MS and much more with it...), which is always a strong sign that my body is doing better. Furthermore, today I got almost not psichycal symptoms after eating the carbs for the first time. And this is just day #6. I will not be hurry to be happy but I am starting to think that after years of struggling I have found the right way. Despite the fact I am too far away from its end and more years are to come if I ever reach it, this is the very first time I saw SOME positive progress just in few days, after years of spending tousands of dolars for remedies with zero effect.
Re CS, I stopped ingesting it and I spit it after I mouthwash with it as it is killing the good bacteria, this was the advice of Dr McCombs and I believe he is correct as I improved a lot after listening to him.
Re probiotics, I am actually doing great with them and I doubt I will have regular BM if I do not take them. Also I seriously doubt one must first kill candida and later apply them,as I see this not possible. The biggest problem with repopulation of the gut is the alkaline PH set by candida, in which the good bacteria does not do well. So unless you start to popoulate the gut steadily, so the acid PH produced of the bacteria is slowly overcoming the alkalnie PH by candida, you will never be able to successfully repopulate it as candida will always come back due to the lack of good bacteria, and the good bacteria will not be able to rapidly establish a place there due to the wrong PH.
What are your toughts behind the opposite statement?
Re CS, I stopped ingesting it and I spit it after I mouthwash with it as it is killing the good bacteria, this was the advice of Dr McCombs and I believe he is correct as I improved a lot after listening to him.
Re probiotics, I am actually doing great with them and I doubt I will have regular BM if I do not take them. Also I seriously doubt one must first kill candida and later apply them,as I see this not possible. The biggest problem with repopulation of the gut is the alkaline PH set by candida, in which the good bacteria does not do well. So unless you start to popoulate the gut steadily, so the acid PH produced of the bacteria is slowly overcoming the alkalnie PH by candida, you will never be able to successfully repopulate it as candida will always come back due to the lack of good bacteria, and the good bacteria will not be able to rapidly establish a place there due to the wrong PH.
What are your toughts behind the opposite statement?
Interesting! Full report here: http://resistantstarchbiome.blogspot.com/2014/12/results.html
His Proteobacteria actually doubled after RS2 supplementation.
His Proteobacteria actually doubled after RS2 supplementation.
I've been evolving toward that position too over the last several months as more objective data from the RS experiment emerged on various blogs. The science is in its infancy. The literature offers no real guidance on what to do, practically speaking. All we have to go by are symptoms & educated guessing/speculation. I wish more people would donate to the Lipkin study.
Was taking about 50 mg, more recently 100 mg. Your prior supplementation with similar structural polysaccharides may diminish the effects. There is significant species overlap in those anaerobic bacteria that degrade and utilize mannan and xylan.
I continue to find the psyillium to be highly anti-inflammatory. It seems my "tolerance" for other prebiotics has similarly risen.
Yes, true, Lipkin's study will be one giant step forward. While I believe the data captured regarding cytokines will be inconclusive and would rather see a metabolomic evaluation, I expect that some distinct phenotypes will emerge. In my estimation, the deficient organisms and their support of the one carbon metabolism and the promotion of anti-inflammatory molecules will carry more significance than the pathogens.
In the interim, I hope we can continue to build further anecdotal evidence in support for prebiotics that minimize inflammation and result in symptom abatement. For the first time in my life, I have concluded with certainty that I will fully recover...no hyperbole or hasty conclusions.
In the interim, I hope we can continue to build further anecdotal evidence in support for prebiotics that minimize inflammation and result in symptom abatement. For the first time in my life, I have concluded with certainty that I will fully recover...no hyperbole or hasty conclusions.
That is....fantastic news! Remind me again, you have me/cfs, right? Was it sudden viral onset?
Could you be specific as to how you have reached this conclusion?
There are a number of proteobacteria that provide benefits to your health. Most have heard of commensal strains of E. Coli (e.g.Mutaflor), which I mentioned has a role maintaining the lining.
Expansion of proteobacteria? I suspect this likely represents a favorable development, although as Sidereal mentioned, not necessarily. Obviously I would want to correlate this with symptoms...Has this guy experienced benefits as a result of his starch regimen? I think large doses of potato starch are probably not optimal, particularly for someone with known dysbiosis.
One of the key differences between commensal and pathogenic strains relates to the structure of the lipopolysaccharide membrane that surrounds these organisms, more precisely lipid A. This is VERY important. Lipid A is the really nasty part of the endotoxin. Its structure, in large part, determines the immunogenicity of the molecule.
Lipid A can be hexacylated, pentacylated, tri-acylated, tetra-acylated, etc. In this regard, the acylation state plays a huge part in determining why one organism is pathogenic and another is non-pathogenic and why some people demonstrate tolerance to the same organism when others experience debilitating symptoms and signs of an infection. Chemical modifications by both microbes and host, in response to many environmental factors, alter the molecular structure and in doing so alter the virulence of lipid A.
So, without getting too esoteric, those organisms that promote an anti-inflammatory response possess the chemical abilities to diminish the immungenicity of that molecule which stimulates pro-inflammatory response. These commensal organisms that we may need have the capacity to enzymatically deacetylate and therefore neutralize the molecules that cause so much harm by activating the host innate immune response. For example hexacylated Lipid A may invoke a host immune response that is 10,000 fold more robust than a triacylated molecule of Lipid A.
How do we get these organisms? These are the same organisms I have been speaking of: anaerobes, principally gram-postive, soil-inhabiting, t-reg modifying bacterial organisms, some commensal fungal organisms as well. Those with robust enzymatic de-acetylation of certain carbohydrate structures that comprise plants, trees, and algae do appear to be particularly important. I don't think this is surprising when you consider that these are the most abundant carbohydrates on earth.
The organisms that possess these special enzymatic capabilities are also commonly found in traditional starchy fermented foods. East asian fermented foods like natto and miso are good examples. These may represent adaptations to diets not as highly enriched with more substrate specificity than starch. So starch is good medium, it simply appears as if the state of the colonic intestinal microbiome in inflammatory disease (including ME/CFS) needs some other carbohydrates that are not so readily accessible.
I'm thinking a variety of very modest doses of highly-acetylated and sulfated structural polysaccharides, combined with a little resistant starch may be a prudent approach. I believe the variety of prebiotics appears to have the capacity to re-engage some of those anti-inflammatory microbes.
Expansion of proteobacteria? I suspect this likely represents a favorable development, although as Sidereal mentioned, not necessarily. Obviously I would want to correlate this with symptoms...Has this guy experienced benefits as a result of his starch regimen? I think large doses of potato starch are probably not optimal, particularly for someone with known dysbiosis.
One of the key differences between commensal and pathogenic strains relates to the structure of the lipopolysaccharide membrane that surrounds these organisms, more precisely lipid A. This is VERY important. Lipid A is the really nasty part of the endotoxin. Its structure, in large part, determines the immunogenicity of the molecule.
Lipid A can be hexacylated, pentacylated, tri-acylated, tetra-acylated, etc. In this regard, the acylation state plays a huge part in determining why one organism is pathogenic and another is non-pathogenic and why some people demonstrate tolerance to the same organism when others experience debilitating symptoms and signs of an infection. Chemical modifications by both microbes and host, in response to many environmental factors, alter the molecular structure and in doing so alter the virulence of lipid A.
So, without getting too esoteric, those organisms that promote an anti-inflammatory response possess the chemical abilities to diminish the immungenicity of that molecule which stimulates pro-inflammatory response. These commensal organisms that we may need have the capacity to enzymatically deacetylate and therefore neutralize the molecules that cause so much harm by activating the host innate immune response. For example hexacylated Lipid A may invoke a host immune response that is 10,000 fold more robust than a triacylated molecule of Lipid A.
How do we get these organisms? These are the same organisms I have been speaking of: anaerobes, principally gram-postive, soil-inhabiting, t-reg modifying bacterial organisms, some commensal fungal organisms as well. Those with robust enzymatic de-acetylation of certain carbohydrate structures that comprise plants, trees, and algae do appear to be particularly important. I don't think this is surprising when you consider that these are the most abundant carbohydrates on earth.
The organisms that possess these special enzymatic capabilities are also commonly found in traditional starchy fermented foods. East asian fermented foods like natto and miso are good examples. These may represent adaptations to diets not as highly enriched with more substrate specificity than starch. So starch is good medium, it simply appears as if the state of the colonic intestinal microbiome in inflammatory disease (including ME/CFS) needs some other carbohydrates that are not so readily accessible.
I'm thinking a variety of very modest doses of highly-acetylated and sulfated structural polysaccharides, combined with a little resistant starch may be a prudent approach. I believe the variety of prebiotics appears to have the capacity to re-engage some of those anti-inflammatory microbes.
Timeline
In the Spring of 2009 I was training (too hard) for a triathlon and my body started crashing, by December I couldn't walk very far without my legs giving way, I would have periods of disillusionment, became incredibly sensitive to all stimuli, would get lost, couldn't hold a thought long enough to log onto my computer, had violent tremors in between meals, temperature down in the 95's, respiration rate slowed to 5-6 breaths per minute, had severe fatigue, etc. About the only symptom I didn't have was POTS, which may be attributable to my cardiovascular fitness. I can identify with nearly every bizarre, disconcerting symptom that defies conventional medical explanation and is familiar to those with ME/CFS. (Of course many of these symptoms resolved with other treatment before I started focusing on how to re-set the microbiome, about two years ago).
Compare that to now. I spent the last three nights installing new hardwood floors in my house. A little tired today, but no big deal. Still have a couple of years to go, but there will be no relapse. Recovering is about feeling a little less crappy every day.
- A host of inflammatory disease processes, FM, IBS, etc.: 1994-2000
- Mild CFS, post-exertional malaise, brain fog, chronic infections, etc.: 2000-2009
- Severe to Very Severe ME/CFS following overtraining and commencement of ultra-low carb diet (as recommended by physician to control hypoglycemia): May 2009
In the Spring of 2009 I was training (too hard) for a triathlon and my body started crashing, by December I couldn't walk very far without my legs giving way, I would have periods of disillusionment, became incredibly sensitive to all stimuli, would get lost, couldn't hold a thought long enough to log onto my computer, had violent tremors in between meals, temperature down in the 95's, respiration rate slowed to 5-6 breaths per minute, had severe fatigue, etc. About the only symptom I didn't have was POTS, which may be attributable to my cardiovascular fitness. I can identify with nearly every bizarre, disconcerting symptom that defies conventional medical explanation and is familiar to those with ME/CFS. (Of course many of these symptoms resolved with other treatment before I started focusing on how to re-set the microbiome, about two years ago).
Compare that to now. I spent the last three nights installing new hardwood floors in my house. A little tired today, but no big deal. Still have a couple of years to go, but there will be no relapse. Recovering is about feeling a little less crappy every day.
I really have benefited from pysllium, which is quite surprising since I took it back in the 90's without apparent effect. It is comprised, in large part of xylan.
Chitin-glucan, I really cannot recommend Artinia given that its source is not going to be tolerated by some. I'll try to find a mushroom source or something equivalent that is less antigenic.
Mannan--I think I linked this product earlier. There are others available.
I also like red and brown marine algae...although I will say that some have proven to be more tolerable perhaps with the addition of other parts to the equation.
I have tried to find topical applications of these same plant compounds from which the prebiotics are derived to test these on a couple of little pre-cancerous lesions. They disappeared with acetylated/sulfated mannan/xylan products. Same thing happened with oral doses of some of the prebiotics, until I pushed it too fast.
So, if someone has any experience with prebiotics and precancerous lesions improving, then I will say you are affecting the same processes involved in ME/CFS at a cellular level.
Chitin-glucan, I really cannot recommend Artinia given that its source is not going to be tolerated by some. I'll try to find a mushroom source or something equivalent that is less antigenic.
Mannan--I think I linked this product earlier. There are others available.
I also like red and brown marine algae...although I will say that some have proven to be more tolerable perhaps with the addition of other parts to the equation.
I have tried to find topical applications of these same plant compounds from which the prebiotics are derived to test these on a couple of little pre-cancerous lesions. They disappeared with acetylated/sulfated mannan/xylan products. Same thing happened with oral doses of some of the prebiotics, until I pushed it too fast.
So, if someone has any experience with prebiotics and precancerous lesions improving, then I will say you are affecting the same processes involved in ME/CFS at a cellular level.
Hello All,
I've been taking RS for a few months now, maybe since June, I can't quite remember.
I recently bought some Great Lakes Gelatin, I'm not entirely sure why, I think I saw it mentioned on one of the RS blogs.
Has anyone else tried this?
I started with 1/4 of a teaspoon and had an extreme reaction. It seemed to set off an entirely different detox reaction in me. Extreme irritability. I'm now at one teaspoon, and still feeling pretty irritable, so have decided to reduce it to 1 teaspoon every other day in order to give my body a bit of breathing room.
Re my progress with RS for those who might be interested, I started off with 1/4 teaspoon of PS and slowly increased to 2 tablespoons over a couple of months.
The detox reactions were also pretty awful - though somehow different to the reaction I'm currently getting with the gelatin. I mostly tried to manage it by doing regular coffee enemas in order to move things out of my system as quickly as possible and to help the liver.
I slowly added in other fibers, and every time I added in something new it was back to square one again with the detoxing and discomfort. Some of the other fibers I added were Inulin/FOS, Green banana flour, Acacia, Larch AG.
I eventually added in little bits of psyllium and apple fiber to bulk out the fibers that I had added to yoghurt.
I didn't notice any siginificant difference when taking the psyllium as others have noted, but then I was trying so many things it was hard to tell.
I also started taking each of the three probiotics recommended. Each also set off intense detox reactions.
The last 6 months or so have been quite unpleasant in a lot of ways.
Maybe about six weeks ago I decided to stop everything and start from scratch. I wanted to make sure that I had properly weeded first, and saw on one of the blogs that neem and berberine were some of the herbs recommended for that. I never got around to trying the berberine, but I did get some neem leaf - which of course also set off more detoxing!
I slowly added in the probiotics, and then small amounts two powders - acacia and inulin/fos.
The gelatin has been setting off such unpleasant reactions in me that I felt like it had completely wiped me out. And was thinking that after all this work on my gut my energy levels were unfortunately no better. I was starting to despair but I finally just figured out today that when I remember to regularly take the homemade liposomal Vit C that I make, my body copes much better. I have a feeling that the lipo C is a huge key in all this for me.
Anyway, I'd be very curious to know if others have tried gelatin. I have been make chicken broth soups for some time now so have been surprised at the strong effect it has on me.
Hope everyone else is making some progress!
I've been taking RS for a few months now, maybe since June, I can't quite remember.
I recently bought some Great Lakes Gelatin, I'm not entirely sure why, I think I saw it mentioned on one of the RS blogs.
Has anyone else tried this?
I started with 1/4 of a teaspoon and had an extreme reaction. It seemed to set off an entirely different detox reaction in me. Extreme irritability. I'm now at one teaspoon, and still feeling pretty irritable, so have decided to reduce it to 1 teaspoon every other day in order to give my body a bit of breathing room.
Re my progress with RS for those who might be interested, I started off with 1/4 teaspoon of PS and slowly increased to 2 tablespoons over a couple of months.
The detox reactions were also pretty awful - though somehow different to the reaction I'm currently getting with the gelatin. I mostly tried to manage it by doing regular coffee enemas in order to move things out of my system as quickly as possible and to help the liver.
I slowly added in other fibers, and every time I added in something new it was back to square one again with the detoxing and discomfort. Some of the other fibers I added were Inulin/FOS, Green banana flour, Acacia, Larch AG.
I eventually added in little bits of psyllium and apple fiber to bulk out the fibers that I had added to yoghurt.
I didn't notice any siginificant difference when taking the psyllium as others have noted, but then I was trying so many things it was hard to tell.
I also started taking each of the three probiotics recommended. Each also set off intense detox reactions.
The last 6 months or so have been quite unpleasant in a lot of ways.
Maybe about six weeks ago I decided to stop everything and start from scratch. I wanted to make sure that I had properly weeded first, and saw on one of the blogs that neem and berberine were some of the herbs recommended for that. I never got around to trying the berberine, but I did get some neem leaf - which of course also set off more detoxing!
I slowly added in the probiotics, and then small amounts two powders - acacia and inulin/fos.
The gelatin has been setting off such unpleasant reactions in me that I felt like it had completely wiped me out. And was thinking that after all this work on my gut my energy levels were unfortunately no better. I was starting to despair but I finally just figured out today that when I remember to regularly take the homemade liposomal Vit C that I make, my body copes much better. I have a feeling that the lipo C is a huge key in all this for me.
Anyway, I'd be very curious to know if others have tried gelatin. I have been make chicken broth soups for some time now so have been surprised at the strong effect it has on me.
Hope everyone else is making some progress!