Supplement Poop out - A discussion

[BlackoutXL]

During the time I have used this forum, I have seen many things in regards to B vitamins and various supplements. But one thing I have seen arguably the most is the dreaded “poop out” phenomenon.

From what I understand, this term refers to the instance of a treatment that once worked for a certain set of conditions no longer working for said conditions.

From the research I have done and the experience I have accumulated over a very long period, I have come to the conclusion that this “poop out” phenomenon in the context of B vitamins and related supplements is due to none other than Co-factor deficiency.

For example, people will say that methylfolate helped their symptoms for a time and gave them intense relief, only for this relief to no longer be present after a certain period of time (usually a few weeks).

Many will argue about why this happens but the most probable answer is a deficiency in the co-factors for folate itself. Even though methylfolate is an active form of folate, it still has to be converted and cycled between the different forms of folate that are utilized by the body. To function at all and be absorbed it burns through folate cofactors.

This will not be an issue when you have said cofactors present in abundant enough amounts, which is usually during the honeymoon period for supplements. But when your body has less and less co-factors available for the conversion of folate, the “poop-out” period will begin. This period can also coincide with folate giving intense side effects, in stark opposition to the benefits it gave recently.

For folate, the cofactors are numerous. I will rank them in the order of most to least important below.

1. (most important) Riboflavin:

- Riboflavin is by far the most important cofactor of folate as it’s directly responsible for the conversion and utilization of folate. Riboflavin deficiency will cause an increase in serum folate which is the result of functional folate deficiency.

2. B12:

- since folate converts and assists in the utilization of b12, it puts increased demand on b12. Insufficient b12 whilst supplementing folate will lead to b12 deficiency. B12 deficiency causes intracellular folate to be depleted, leading to functional folate deficiency. B12 however also relies on riboflavin.

3. Niacin:

- Folate conversion relies on niacin and increases demand for niacin during periods of increased folate supplementation. Niacin also depends on b2.

4. B6:

- b6 increases conversion of folate iirc and folate in excess can deplete b6 through placing increased demand on b6.

As you can see, to even run folate you need a laundry list of other nutrients present in adequate amounts unless you want to induce deficiencies in said nutrients and therefore a functional deficiency in folate. There are also extra co-factors for folate I did not mention like vitamin C for example.

And whilst some on this forum will acknowledge that co-factors are essential, they will often still fail to take the co-factors for the co-factors mentioned. Riboflavin will only give you expensive urine unless you take zinc, magnesium, iodine, molybdenum and vitamin B5 with it. B6 will only give you neuropathy unless it is ran with B2 and zinc.

This even applies to minerals. For example, manganese without sufficient calcium or zinc or copper will lead to a very bad outcome. Zinc without copper or calcium will lead to anemia. Copper without zinc and niacin will lead to zinc deficiency and potentially pellagra.

Supplement poop-out should not be taken as an example of said supplements no longer being relevant to treatment, it should be taken as an example of you running out of the necessary nutrients to run these supplements in the first place. When it comes to B vitamins, or TMG, or minerals, these are not drugs. These are supplements. There is a critical difference between the two in the context that drugs will always give the advertised effect to some degree. There can be a decrease in the efficacy sure but they always will do the job at least bio-chemically.

Supplements are subject to much more rules and conditions. Many supplements need the presence of other supplements in order to function properly.

Another example can be people who take huge amounts of B12 and methyl b12 especially and don’t even get a honey moon period. Instead, they get intense side effects upon taking it. Why? For the same reasons as the ones stated above. The only difference in this instance is that you did not even have the co-factors available in the first place to run b12, which sends you straight to the poop-out phase. The cofactors in this case include b2, molybdenum, iodine, magnesium, folate and zinc, etc.

Anyone who read my first thread back in December will probably already know that I’m big on co-factors and their importance, perhaps to even an excessive extent. But this isn’t for no reason. You have no business taking any supplement if the conditions for them to function properly aren’t met.

Failure to acknowledge this will only give you added problems Ontop of the ones you already have, expensive urine and a deflated bank account. It’s your money and time, but because of that why waste both?

 

[linusbert]

very interesting

 

[Wishful]

That phenomenon applies to many (most?) ME treatments. I doubt that it's just cofactors running low. The body's various homeostasis functions adapt to changes. ME seems to be a state that those homeostatic mechanisms work to maintain. In regards to PWME, taking a supplement might provide a response that fits one theory, but the theory fails for another supplement.

One question about "taking all the cofactors": does taking a typical multivitamin/mineral supplement or eating eggs (nature's multivitamin/mineral capsule) not provide adequate levels of those cofactors? What about a healthy diet, with meat, veggies, etc?

 

[pamojja]

One question about "taking all the cofactors": does taking a typical multivitamin/mineral supplement or eating eggs (nature's multivitamin/mineral capsule) not provide adequate levels of those cofactors?

In healthy, with no long medical history, non-problematic genetics, for some it suffices. Some could even smoke and drink along with it, up to very old age.

I'm not one of those. All my organs are damaged. Therefore, I checked for a while if a varied died would at least cover the lousy RDA. Recommendations set to prevent worse of deficiencies. I found I could not even meet those needs by trying to fill gaps with foods highest in the nutrients missing.

Thereafter, I used therapeutic supplemental megadoses of Bs to support the damaged organs. These therapeutic effects aren't possible with the RDA only. In this balancing high doses of some Bs with others becomes very important. If one is able to tolerate.

 

[Lena9701]

During the time I have used this forum, I have seen many things in regards to B vitamins and various supplements. But one thing I have seen arguably the most is the dreaded “poop out” phenomenon.

From what I understand, this term refers to the instance of a treatment that once worked for a certain set of conditions no longer working for said conditions.

From the research I have done and the experience I have accumulated over a very long period, I have come to the conclusion that this “poop out” phenomenon in the context of B vitamins and related supplements is due to none other than Co-factor deficiency.

For example, people will say that methylfolate helped their symptoms for a time and gave them intense relief, only for this relief to no longer be present after a certain period of time (usually a few weeks).

Many will argue about why this happens but the most probable answer is a deficiency in the co-factors for folate itself. Even though methylfolate is an active form of folate, it still has to be converted and cycled between the different forms of folate that are utilized by the body. To function at all and be absorbed it burns through folate cofactors.

This will not be an issue when you have said cofactors present in abundant enough amounts, which is usually during the honeymoon period for supplements. But when your body has less and less co-factors available for the conversion of folate, the “poop-out” period will begin. This period can also coincide with folate giving intense side effects, in stark opposition to the benefits it gave recently.

For folate, the cofactors are numerous. I will rank them in the order of most to least important below.

1. (most important) Riboflavin:

- Riboflavin is by far the most important cofactor of folate as it’s directly responsible for the conversion and utilization of folate. Riboflavin deficiency will cause an increase in serum folate which is the result of functional folate deficiency.

2. B12:

- since folate converts and assists in the utilization of b12, it puts increased demand on b12. Insufficient b12 whilst supplementing folate will lead to b12 deficiency. B12 deficiency causes intracellular folate to be depleted, leading to functional folate deficiency. B12 however also relies on riboflavin.

3. Niacin:

- Folate conversion relies on niacin and increases demand for niacin during periods of increased folate supplementation. Niacin also depends on b2.

4. B6:

- b6 increases conversion of folate iirc and folate in excess can deplete b6 through placing increased demand on b6.

As you can see, to even run folate you need a laundry list of other nutrients present in adequate amounts unless you want to induce deficiencies in said nutrients and therefore a functional deficiency in folate. There are also extra co-factors for folate I did not mention like vitamin C for example.

And whilst some on this forum will acknowledge that co-factors are essential, they will often still fail to take the co-factors for the co-factors mentioned. Riboflavin will only give you expensive urine unless you take zinc, magnesium, iodine, molybdenum and vitamin B5 with it. B6 will only give you neuropathy unless it is ran with B2 and zinc.

This even applies to minerals. For example, manganese without sufficient calcium or zinc or copper will lead to a very bad outcome. Zinc without copper or calcium will lead to anemia. Copper without zinc and niacin will lead to zinc deficiency and potentially pellagra.

Supplement poop-out should not be taken as an example of said supplements no longer being relevant to treatment, it should be taken as an example of you running out of the necessary nutrients to run these supplements in the first place. When it comes to B vitamins, or TMG, or minerals, these are not drugs. These are supplements. There is a critical difference between the two in the context that drugs will always give the advertised effect to some degree. There can be a decrease in the efficacy sure but they always will do the job at least bio-chemically.

Supplements are subject to much more rules and conditions. Many supplements need the presence of other supplements in order to function properly.

Another example can be people who take huge amounts of B12 and methyl b12 especially and don’t even get a honey moon period. Instead, they get intense side effects upon taking it. Why? For the same reasons as the ones stated above. The only difference in this instance is that you did not even have the co-factors available in the first place to run b12, which sends you straight to the poop-out phase. The cofactors in this case include b2, molybdenum, iodine, magnesium, folate and zinc, etc.

Anyone who read my first thread back in December will probably already know that I’m big on co-factors and their importance, perhaps to even an excessive extent. But this isn’t for no reason. You have no business taking any supplement if the conditions for them to function properly aren’t met.

Failure to acknowledge this will only give you added problems Ontop of the ones you already have, expensive urine and a deflated bank account. It’s your money and time, but because of that why waste both?

I assume you're familiar with the B12 oils protocol? It's very honed in on the critical importance of riboflavin, and the essential cofactors (iodine, selenium and molybdenum) that you need to utilize riboflavin.

I've gotten significant benefits from a modified version of that protocol, but now after six months I feel like my body has been burning through just about every nutrient, and I'm needing to supplement all over the place (potassium, magnesium, vitamins d, k, c, zinc, copper, all the b vitamins and now iron, sigh)

 

[Florida Guy]

Supplements are subject to much more rules and conditions. Many supplements need the presence of other supplements in order to function properly.

First I would like to say this is a great post you wrote. Taking vitamins and minerals is essential now days since our food comes from corporate factory farms, is over processed and many important benefits are lost. My recommendation is to take a multi vitamin and a B compled every day. That gives you a little of most everything.

Often I see here recommendations that include mega doses of things, many multiples of recommended dose. In some cases that works, I have heard about high dose IV vitamin C being used in cancer treatment or other conditions. High doses are needed if the person is low, and may be needed for other reasons. But, high doses can put a strain on the body and can even be toxic or fatal in some cases. I read about someone who ate vitamin gummies like candy and ate a bottle every day. He got really sick

The one thing that I would like more info on is molybdenum which you recommend and say is vital. I agree with the other things mentioned and have at times heard of molybdenum being mentioned as a possible usable trace mineral but I think this is the first time I was told it was vital

The reasons why various treatments work for a while is no doubt in part due to taking or not taking other things with them. But, it seems that the treatments do not affect the root cause of the problems, they are secondary or tertiary symptoms apparently. Treatments provide some relief but then the symptoms come back.

Investigating what works and why should lead to better treatments. If we find a cure great, if not maybe we will find treatments that help and keep working.

 

[Artemisia]

This is good information, and I also want to point out that a lot of us have been supplementing, experimenting, following protocols *with cofactors* for decades and they haven't worked for many of us. Many of us are aware of and routinely supplement cofactors based on our exhaustive research--and have been for years or decades--and cofactors are not always the missing key. Yes, cofactors are important to be aware of, but I don't think this explains why we're still sick, or is going to provide us with a treatment that works for all of us.

You have no business taking any supplement if the conditions for them to function properly aren’t met.

I don't want people to think that everyone here is just randomly supplementing things without researching how they affect other nutrients. The "long haul" people with ME are often auto-didacts and we've had to teach ourselves nutrition. Also pwME tend to be smarter than average, IMO, and thorough.

 

[linusbert]

Often I see here recommendations that include mega doses of things, many multiples of recommended dose. In some cases that works, I have heard about high dose IV vitamin C being used in cancer treatment or other conditions. High doses are needed if the person is low, and may be needed for other reasons. But, high doses can put a strain on the body and can even be toxic or fatal in some cases. I read about someone who ate vitamin gummies like candy and ate a bottle every day. He got really sick

just to clarify, the cancer healing properties from IV vitamin C do not come from its anti oxidant and usual C physiological features, but instead the excess of vitamin C generates peroxides which harm the cancer cells and lesser the healthier cells. some cancers are vulnerable to this and it indeed might help.
but a deficiency of vitamin C has not much to do with it.

 

[Florida Guy]

Yes, my point was that using high dose C for cancer was one of the very few cases in which a megadose of anything is a good idea. You might be able to find one or two other examples but in most cases, overdosing on anything is bad. I don't mean just going above the RDA, which tends to be low, I mean 10x or 100x a normal dose. Vitamin A is a well known example of a vitamin that can become toxic in overdose

When we find something that helps a little bit, the natural response is to ramp up the dose in hopes that it will keep ramping up the benefit and maybe make us well. The reason something makes us feel better might be because we were low and needed more, or it could be something that helps another mineral or vitamin work properly. We took the cofactor that we needed and felt better afterward but raising the dose didn't help more and pretty soon it had no effect.

A mild stimulant may make us feel more alert and improve the mood. But stims even caffeine are like robbing peter to pay paul. We feel good today but worse in a day or two.

I've always been cautious on dosing, usually taking less than the recommended amount at first. If something makes me feel good, I naturally think to conserve it so it doesn't wear out the good effect. Overusing it might ruin it

 

[pamojja]

Yes, my point was that using high dose C for cancer was one of the very few cases in which a megadose of anything is a good idea. You might be able to find one or two other examples but in most cases, overdosing on anything is bad.

Not my personal experience at all.

Of course, with any supplement it is advisable to start with the lowest possible dose and increase gradually over weeks, months and years. So that adverse reactions and sensitivities are still easier to correct. Which also might be caused by binders and fillers. Whenever possible, I use pure powders for mega-dosing.

In my personal extensive experience, I never had bad effects from mega-dosing nutrients. After self-informing myself about them and their co-factor nutrients thoroughly

If something makes me feel good, I naturally think to conserve it so it doesn't wear out the good effect. Overusing it might ruin it

I also never supplemented because of mood issues, but only to give the therapeutic nutritional support to my many damaged organs needed for repairs. Which always takes many years and nothing to report early, except visible improvement in laboratory markers long before. For of example liver, kidney, androgen or metabolic lab markers.

The health benefits summarized in my protocol thread by large from mega-dosing on many nutrients for 15 years:

(in avg. 25 g/d ascorbic acid, 3.1 g/d B3, 170 mg/d B6, 7.1 g/d inositol, 18,000 IU/d retinol, 25 mg/d K vitamins, 1,9 g/d elemental Mg, 1.5 g/d potassium, arginines, glycines and lysine 5.5 g/d each, 4 g/d EPA+DHA, 2.2 g/d bioflavonoids, 1.8 g/d other plant-phenols, 1.4 g/d garlic extracts and 1.9 g/d of various berries extracts - to mention a few)

To summarize - through the synergistic effects of lifestyle modifications, nutrient and herbal extract supplementation it was possible:

• first of all - to reverse a 60% walking disability from PAD
• reverse a cystitis circumscripta of the bladder
• .. 2 non-circulated nodules on the right edge of the liver (5 + 8mm)
• .. one additional tubercle (6mm) of the left lung; the older of the right lung (9mm) remaining
• .. and a chronic bronchitis, while the at that time diagnosed COPD remained asymptomatic
• keep prediabetes, hay-fever,
• .. muscle-cramps and CKD stage 1 in check
• cease psoriasis and retinal migraine flare-ups,
• .. and angina-like chest pains
• provide sun-burn protection without suncream
• but overall staying still alive and able to come up for my own living counter the prediction of my initially diagnosing internist

The walking disability took 7 years to resolve. COPD symptoms, only 1. For the ceasing of psoriasis and retinal migraines, particularly mega-dosing of preformed vitamin A was responsible. Many years later, just got sloppy with retinol this year, and had the first retinal migraine after many years again.

• At the end of 2017 I got my only root-canal treated tooth extracted. (Instead of the precautionary prescribed antibiotic I only took a DSMO mouthwash, and already on the second day no pain from the extraction.)
• At the same time found a GP who gave me inexpensive Magnesium-sulfate IVs almost monthly. After the 6th the pain-full muscle cramps ceased completely. However, retesting whole blood after the 10th IV showed whole blood Mg only raised about 3 mg/dl, still 2 short of normal between 34-36 mg/l. (All the while continuing my high oral intake.)
• Used LDN more consistently above 2 mg/d.

No more postexcertional malaise since! Hallelujah

PEMs were the hardest nut to crack in my case - took 10 years of efforts, also in pacing, of course.

 

[pamojja]

The one thing that I would like more info on is molybdenum which you recommend and say is vital. I agree with the other things mentioned and have at times heard of molybdenum being mentioned as a possible usable trace mineral but I think this is the first time I was told it was vital

A good resource for most basic information on a nutrient: https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/molybdenum

 

[Florida Guy]

Its nice that you were able to find something that improved your symptoms by using higher doses. I never said its always dangerous to go over the recommended amount. Depending on how high a dose they use of course. Long term megadoses particularly with fat soluble vitamins and supplements has caused disease and even death, which I'm sure you are aware.

I'm glad you are not telling people to start off with those high levels because that would be a problem for many. I will always say start with the listed dose or less, usually its best to start with less because we are often over sensitive to certain drugs. Its interesting when someone finds that a super high amount of something causes good effects in the long term but the next person should start small in case they don't react the same way

I also never supplemented because of mood issues, but only to give the therapeutic nutritional support to my many damaged organs needed for repairs.

Severe depression makes people rethink their opposition to antidepressant drugs. Many things that help your health make you feel good, what wrong with that?

No more postexcertional malaise since! Hallelujah

Are you in remission then? That would be great, how bad were you at the low point? You may have found a formula that works for you but usually those things do not work for others but perhaps part of your routine might work for many others

 

[Florida Guy]

A good resource for most basic information on a nutrient: https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/molybdenum

It seems it is used mainly to reduce excess copper. In fields where molybdenum concentrations are high, cows suffer from low copper levels. It is not a nutrient and I was hoping the person who mentioned it would give some personal experiences. He said it was "vital" and it seems more like something to avoid except for certain conditions. Maybe it has a little known effect we can use but he/she has not replied

 

[pamojja]

Vitamin A is a well known example of a vitamin that can become toxic in overdose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol

Vitamin A acute toxicity occurs when a person ingests vitamin A in large amounts more than the daily recommended value in the threshold of 25,000 IU/kg or more. Often, the patient consumes about 3–4 times the RDA's specification.[15] Toxicity of vitamin A is believed to be associated with the methods of increasing vitamin A in the body, such as food modification, fortification, and supplementation, all of which are used to combat vitamin A deficiency.[16] Toxicity is classified into two categories: acute and chronic. The former occurs a few hours or days after ingestion of a large amount of vitamin A. Chronic toxicity takes place when about 4,000 IU/kg or more of vitamin A is consumed for a long time. Symptoms of both include nausea, blurred vision, fatigue, weight-loss, and menstrual abnormalities.[17]

For an average 70 kg human, that would be 280,000 IU per day intake of retinol, for chronic toxicity!

Severe depression makes people rethink their opposition to antidepressant drugs. Many things that help your health make you feel good, what wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with feeling good. I am very enthusiastic, and beside abysses of deep temporary sadness, I never got depression. I also work for long as a care assistant, especially with psychiatric patients. Therefore, I can not agree that the long term effects of antidepressant drugs are worth their benefits at all.

Happiness which comes from good health without polypharmacy is a completely different animal. Pharmaceuticals almost always have side effects. Natural occurring nutrients - additionally essentials, which the human body can't endogenously synthesize - the human body since millennia knows how and needs to metabolize, without side effects.

With the great exception of sensitivities, especially prevalent in ME/CFS. I do not find as an exception to the rule, since ME/CFS can also be sensitive to otherwise harmless sounds, sights and smells too. Which are part and parcel of being alive and thriving.

It is not a nutrient

In humans, molybdenum is known to function as a cofactor for four enzymes (3):

• Sulfite oxidase catalyzes the transformation of sulfite to sulfate, a reaction that is necessary for the metabolism of sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine). Recent evidence also indicates a role for sulfite oxidase in the reduction of nitrite to nitric oxide (4).
• Xanthine oxidase catalyzes the breakdown of nucleotides (precursors to DNA and RNA) to form uric acid, which contributes to the plasma antioxidant capacity of the blood.
• Aldehyde oxidase and xanthine oxidase catalyze hydroxylation reactions that involve a number of different molecules with similar chemical structures. Xanthine oxidase and aldehyde oxidase also play a role in the metabolism of drugs and toxins (5).
• Mitochondrial amidoxime reducing component (mARC) was described fairly recently (6), and its precise function is still under investigation. Initial studies showed that mARC forms a three-component enzyme system with cytochrome b5 and NADH/cytochrome b5 reductase that catalyzes the detoxification of mutagenic N-hydroxylated bases (7). mARC reduces various N-hydroxylated compounds and plays an important role in prodrug metabolism (8, 9). Moreover, recent studies have found a separate function of this enzyme system: the reduction of nitrite to nitric oxide (10). Two isoforms of the mARC enzyme are known to exist in humans, mARC1 and mARC2 (11).

Of these enzymes, sulfite oxidase is known to be crucial for human health (12). Hereditary xanthinuria, characterized by a deficiency in xanthine oxidase (Type I) or by a deficiency in both xanthine oxidase and aldehyde oxidase (Type II), can be asymptomatic. However, in less than half of the cases, affected individuals exhibit a range of health issues of variable severity (13, 14).​

Are you really of the opinion that sulfite oxidase and the metabolism of important sulfur-containing amino acids isn't essential?

Why then you think an RDA, which is only applicable to essential nutrients, was set for molybdenum?

The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for molybdenum was most recently revised in January 2001 by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine (now the National Academy of Medicine) (2). It was based on the results of nutritional balance studies conducted in eight, healthy young men under controlled laboratory conditions (47, 48).

If you google sulfite oxidase here on the forum, you will find many experiences with it.

Are you in remission then? That would be great, how bad were you at the low point?

Couldn't walk more than 3-400 meters at worse, without excruciating pain in my lower body. Coughed through the whole day. Constant PEMs (bodily pains, cognitive and sleep impairments), due to still working 2 part-time jobs. Worse, even more frequent and excruciatingly painful muscle-cramps due to Mg-deficiency. Lost vision for hours with retinal-migraines. All and more in remission for many years and comprehensive supplementing, except seasonal rhinitis.


My main point is that you are generally warning about mega-dosing having rare benefits and big risks, without yourself having any personal experience with it. Just repeating the mantra of pharmaceutical companies, who can't patent natural compounds and therefore don't have much profit with.

The fact remains: with pharmaceuticals and standard of care I would get medications prescribed till my deathbed, any of them without any RCTs beyond 5 years. Without even the hope for remissions, but marginal slowing of disease progression, and a ridiculous sight decrease in mortality.

After 5 years of use without any evidence, equally without evidence just as high-dose vitamin C from the onset. Which they even refuse to study in such high oral doses. But nevertheless feel entitled to warn about.

 

[pamojja]

You may have found a formula that works for you but usually those things do not work for others but perhaps part of your routine might work for many others

Here I have to disappoint. Most would not even try something which needs so many efforts in self-education, otherworldly supplementation, unceasing life-style changes and years in patience. My solution therefore wouldn't work for many. Even if it otherwise would.

My GP once said, I would be the only one of his many thousand patients asking for a particular lab-tests, taking copies and interpreting it myself. And only therefore would he be able to provide. All other trust standard of care and are happy with 2-3 pills prescriptions a day, and with the in reality meager results in disease progression reduction.

And obviously, my ME/CFS symptoms were rather mild, compared to many other very severe putting in even longer strenuous and unsuccessful efforts.

 

[Florida Guy]

You are correct in that it is needed but the diet contains enough and a deficiency is very rare. Its even found in drinking water. I don't believe its vital to take as a supplement

My main point is that you are generally warning about mega-dosing having rare benefits and big risks, without yourself having any personal experience with it. Just repeating the mantra of pharmaceutical companies, who can't patent natural compounds and therefore don't have much profit with.

That is not true. How can you say I have no personal experience when you know nothing about me? You are just lying. Yes I caution about overdosing anything can kill in a large overdose. Anything you take to excess can kill you, medicine, minerals, vitamins, etc. Not just make you sick, it can kill and yes I will continue to caution about that. I have experienced overdoses before on various things and learned my lesson.

Thousands of people die each year from overdoses. people reading how much you take and recommend are more likely to start off with way too much. If I say be very careful, they may start off small and not have a problem

If you just want to argue and make attacks, then I'm done talking with you. If someone pushes dangerous things, I will speak up always

 

[pamojja]

How can you say I have no personal experience when you know nothing about me?

Because you didn't give one example of a personal experience, so others can learn from it. Sharing and collaboration of knowledge is the purpose of discussion forums. I shared plenty of personal experience.

You are just lying.

This was my perception of your contribution. If you prefer to not share experiences of what you talk about, that is the only possible conclusion. It could be a wrong conclusion, but its not lying due to your refusal to sharing experiences. Just as now in your last post again.

If you just want to argue and make attacks, then I'm done talking with you.

Your last post was just asserting without giving any sources of evidence. And be it only anecdotal. None of which I did in my former posts. While I didn't attack you personally this way, but only wanted to challenge your non-evidenced assertions.

 

[pamojja]

Thousands of people die each year from overdoses. people reading how much you take and recommend are more likely to start off with way too much. If I say be very careful, they may start off small and not have a problem

While this is true of pharmaceuticals (alone from Aspirin die about 60 persons a year in the US) the same simple and factual cannot be said from supplements:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, Jan 23, 2023

ZERO DEATHS FROM VITAMINS. ZERO DEATHS FROM MINERALS.
Supplement Safety Confirmed by America's Largest Database​

by Andrew W. Saul, Editor​

OMNS (Jan 23, 2023) The 39th annual report from the American Association of Poison Control Centers shows zero deaths from vitamins. Confirming data is in Table 22B, p 1613-1615, at the very end of the lengthy report published in Clinical Toxicology. [1] It is interesting that it is placed way back there where nary a news reporter is likely to see it. But there it is: no deaths, none whatsoever, from vitamin A, niacin, pyridoxine (B-6) or from any other B-vitamin. There were no deaths from vitamin C, vitamin D, or vitamin E. There were no deaths from multiple vitamins. There were no deaths from any vitamin at all.

Furthermore, there were no fatalities from mineral supplements. Two fatalities from "Iron and Iron Salts" were clearly stated as not being due to supplemental iron (p 1607).

No deaths from vitamins. No deaths from minerals. Want to bet this will never be on the evening news? Well, have you seen it there? And why not? This is of real importance to the public. After all, at least two-thirds of the U.S. population takes daily nutritional supplements. A Harris Poll indicated that for American adults, the number is 86%. [2] But let's just use the lower number. Should each of those people take only one single tablet daily, that still makes over 220,000,000 individual doses per day, for a total of well over 80 billion doses annually. Since many persons take far more than just one single vitamin tablet, actual consumption is considerably higher, and the safety of vitamin supplements is all the more remarkable.

Throughout the entire year, coast to coast across the entire USA, there was not one single death from a vitamin or mineral supplement. If supplements are allegedly so "dangerous," as the FDA, the news media, and even some physicians still claim, then where are the bodies?

(Andrew W. Saul is Editor-in-Chief of the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, now in its 19th year of free publication. He is also a member of the Japanese College of Intravenous Therapy; the Orthomolecular Medicine Hall of Fame; and is author or coauthor of twelve books. He has no financial connection whatsoever to the supplement or health products industry.)

 

[pamojja]

This was the 2007 annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers I checked myself, before starting comprehensive supplementation, and refusing prescriptions of cardiovascular drugs, Aspirin, Antihistamines and invasive risky surgery. For comparison to supplements.

Number    -    % of all exposures in category    -    Substance

377    -    0.250    -    Sedative/hypnotics/antipsychotics
331    -    0.990    -    Opioids
220    -    0.250    -    Antidepressants
208    -    0.270    -    Acetaminophen in combination
203    -    0.240    -    Cardiovascular drugs
188    -    0.410    -    Stimulants and street drugs
170    -    0.230    -    Alcohols
140    -    0.190    -    Acetaminophen only
99    -    0.230    -    Anticonvulsants
80    -    0.200    -    Fumes/gases/vapors
80    -    0.740    -    Cyclic antidepressants
70    -    0.270    -    Muscle relaxants
69    -    0.090    -    Antihistamines
63    -    0.350    -    Aspirin alone
45    -    0.120    -    Chemicals
44    -    0.230    -    Unknown drug
44    -    0.040    -    Other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs
36    -    0.280    -    Oral hypoglycemics
28    -    0.200    -    Automotive/aircraft/boat products
21    -    0.080    -    Miscellaneous drugs
21    -    0.040    -    Antihistamine/decongestant, without phenylpropanolamine
20    -    0.050    -    Hormones and hormone antagonists
20    -    0.300    -    Anticoagulants
16    -    0.150    -    Diuretics
...
ZERO    -    0.000    -    Vitamins and Minerals

 

[linusbert]

This was the 2007 annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers I checked myself, before starting comprehensive supplementation, and refusing prescriptions of cardiovascular drugs, Aspirin, Antihistamines and invasive risky surgery. For comparison to supplements.

Number    -    % of all exposures in category    -    Substance

377    -    0.250    -    Sedative/hypnotics/antipsychotics
331    -    0.990    -    Opioids
220    -    0.250    -    Antidepressants
208    -    0.270    -    Acetaminophen in combination
203    -    0.240    -    Cardiovascular drugs
188    -    0.410    -    Stimulants and street drugs
170    -    0.230    -    Alcohols
140    -    0.190    -    Acetaminophen only
99    -    0.230    -    Anticonvulsants
80    -    0.200    -    Fumes/gases/vapors
80    -    0.740    -    Cyclic antidepressants
70    -    0.270    -    Muscle relaxants
69    -    0.090    -    Antihistamines
63    -    0.350    -    Aspirin alone
45    -    0.120    -    Chemicals
44    -    0.230    -    Unknown drug
44    -    0.040    -    Other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs
36    -    0.280    -    Oral hypoglycemics
28    -    0.200    -    Automotive/aircraft/boat products
21    -    0.080    -    Miscellaneous drugs
21    -    0.040    -    Antihistamine/decongestant, without phenylpropanolamine
20    -    0.050    -    Hormones and hormone antagonists
20    -    0.300    -    Anticoagulants
16    -    0.150    -    Diuretics
...
ZERO    -    0.000    -    Vitamins and Minerals

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