Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Dysfunkion]

Time to research tuna metabolism, feeding habits, hormones, etc? Maybe search for "tuna highest, superior, or whatever ... while filtering out all the marketing hits". Maybe there's a website explaining how to search for obscure knowledge while avoiding all the marketing hits.

I assume you've ruled out "abnormally large meal" as a factor. How quickly does the reduction in symptoms start? The comment about a small amount of liquid makes it sound quick.

Here's a suggestion: try just sniffing the liquid, to see whether that triggers a response. If not that, try swishing the fluid around your mouth before spitting it out, to see whether the effect doesn't require travel further down the digestive tract. I did that with cumin, and found that it didn't require swallowing.

Ah, the excitement of science!

Sorry didn't see this post, You reminded me I should also look into feeding habits that may differ in the. So far from what I have dug up nothing stands out that I haven't rued out. I can't find much on hormones found in the meat of them at all or any specific hormones to tuna. Tuna tastes distinctly different than swordfish which is most similar and I haven't found any fish that tastes just like tuna before, it's possibly a compound in the meat that is inducing that unique flavor. I have ruled out the large meal thing, I can eatall I want of anything or any other seafood and this doesn't happen. In fact there might be a clue in the fact that shellfish and things like clams/oysters don't have any effect on me like fish does in any amount consumed.

I should try sniffing it and just swishing the boiled juice from the same amount of tuna in my mouth and see what happens. It is an extremely quick onset so barely any digestion has begun at all when it starts.

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It's been a couple days since I have eliminated supplements with additives besides rice flour which I'm nonreactive to. I've also completely removed tortilla chips and am now occasionally snacking on rice cakes plain with salt instead. I do feel even better and I'm not sure exactly what did it though besides that I started getting a bit better when I removed my old methyl-b12 supplement that had sweeteners/additives/external cherry flavoring in them whatever that stuff is made of. so something I removed seem to overall improve everything but nothing specific. Last night was my last shift at my old job where they replaced the computer systems a while over a month back that made the hole "hot head/brain burn" thing worse and post removal of the cluster of things I did it was somewhat less of an effect which I think indicates was some persistent elevation in mast cell mediators or some other metabolite of something induced by higher EMF level exposure and certain ingested triggers. That symptom cluster induced I noticed puts a stop to excitory signalling in my brain and interrupts almost all processes going on in a lot of signalling systems in general whatever it is. Should add what I mean specifically is that when the specific brain burn thing from triggers is occurring it seems to block dopamine loop, serotonin, hormonal as it will also shut down my sex drive and reduce ability, and endorphin signalling to a significant degree. So it seems to be a highly toxic metabolite something is producing in response to a specific trigger set. Another interesting note is that though gluten can make me feel more fatigued, it doesn't do this specific thing. Gluten for some reason despite being able to compromise my immune system temporarily as I get more susceptible to flu like symptoms after consumption doesn't induce the brain burn signal stopping effect, if anything it combats it somewhat but has a reaction of it's own in my system as if 2 pathogenic loads are actually be fueled and one suppresses the metabolites of the other and compete for control. That would be very interesting if it's the case.

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edit 9/23 - Good thing you asked me to try the swishing in mouth thing with the broth from the tuna, it's orally reactive at small amounts (think like a shot glass or two's worth). Interesting thing about this, I was in the middle of a POIS episode and the day after I ate gluten which makes it far worse and prolongs the symptoms as well as gives me increased autism like symptoms. The initial mouth rinse of the liquid cut through it all in minutes without even touching the digestive system which is very confusing to me as I don't know what that could mean. I also had dry mouth to an extent all day as a result of the POIS episode and gluten post-POIS which is also a solid repeatable for me and this also stopped that. Maybe it's reducing a specific type of neuroinflammation or combating a toxin the spreads up the head/brain from the guts. I might even be able to make this sustainable by making and sealing the juice in the fridge and having a little every day. Though this isn't very helpful without realizing what is actually going on here. Though the dry mouth reduction may imply it's active against some kind of infection.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Sometimes I wish I had all my records in a database so I could look for correlations, but that's way too much work.

Ha! I thought exactly the same.

I appreciate this thread too. It's much easier to think some things through when you compose in a forum, and other people's comments may trigger insights.

I like doing this anyways because I'm always finding out something new about what is going on through it, the whole thread has been a great help to me.

So glad to hear that

Here's a thought: what if some of our mysterious food responses are due to parasites in that food? For example, tuna works for you one time, but not reliably after that. Maybe the samples that do work are due to some chemical in worms in the flesh.

That may well be the case, although I think I can rule that out for me because I was 100% vegan for many months on and off and it didn't make a difference. I also tried very limited diets like rice & potatos, rice and domatos, not much more than pasta in some variations etc. I wouldn't expect parasites in these foods.

Our detective work is not as simple as "food x does this", because food x is not simple.

Definitely not, I think I pointed that out in the past: It's very complicated and it depends on many factors.

The fish every time I eat is super well done so I think that would kill all parasites or at least most of them anyways.

It could still be something the parasites produced, a toxin or something, while they were alive. (not for me, as pointed out, but hypothetically for other people)

I am thinking though like you that it may be some sort of hormone in the fish specifically that does it, it certainly feels "steroidy". In fact I wonder if that is behind my weird reactions to land meat which make me feel horrible too.

Have you thought about trying vegan/vegetarian?

I found the benefit starts with...

Wait...does the tuna make you worse or better? I'm a bit confused now.

 

[Wonkmonk]

In fact there might be a clue in the fact that shellfish and things like clams/oysters don't have any effect on me like fish does in any amount consumed. ... It is an extremely quick onset so barely any digestion has begun at all when it starts. ... Good thing you asked me to try the swishing in mouth thing with the broth from the tuna, it's orally reactive at small amounts

Have you checked if it may be an allergic reaction? Some people are allergic to shellfish, but not to normal fish and vice versa.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Have you checked if it may be an allergic reaction? Some people are allergic to shellfish, but not to normal fish and vice versa.

Yeah I have considered this actually because allergic reaction technically could do something beneficial to one system in the body through some mediator release or other immune mechanism.All of my reactions to fish or land meat are consistent though like that night last weekend when something with beef got just some of the juice on my food I had the same exact reaction as I would and severity of as if I just ate the beef. Like that too I'm reactive at a juice from the meat level.

I am largely vegan most of the time but occasionally eat seafood and yes I meant the tuna did make some thing better temporarily and only the juice from it has that effect. The only reason I been eating so much fish lately was testing this stuff out. I'm back to being vegan for a while now and just letting it all clear my system. My guts in general get bogged down from not being vegan and I suspect I have some gut motility issue.

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It's also been a good handful of days since I cut out all daily consumption of any corn products at all and canola oil that the tortilla chips were often made with (also usually a mix of oils like safflower, sunflower, or others). I do at a baseline feel better even though right now I feel like after work and having eaten for 3 days in a row now and plus a small break before a previous "more than 2 days of dinner) eating in a row as I was dealing with this fish thing that my brain is cognitively exhausted and it's a struggle just getting up to get my coffee going off. Though after a couple days of dinner fasting including today I think I should be even better, long chain immune changes in my condition are much harder to map. Who knows it could take months without daily consumption of those chips I was consuming before I really see much considering I may here and eat something fried (though I'm hoping to stay at least a month here without anything made in the stuff before resuming much more casual once in a while consumption).

 

[Wishful]

I cut out all daily consumption of any corn products

I hope that doesn't reveal that you need to avoid them. Tortilla chips are my main snack, since they haven't attacked me yet. Potato chips are out. Pretzels are out. Rice snacks are out. There's very little variety on the store shelves.

Life is so depressing without good snacks.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I hope that doesn't reveal that you need to avoid them. Tortilla chips are my main snack, since they haven't attacked me yet. Potato chips are out. Pretzels are out. Rice snacks are out. There's very little variety on the store shelves.

Life is so depressing without good snacks.

I honestly don't mind, in fact I'm better without them. I made a habit out of having some salty fatty tortilla chips whenever I needed a little extra mental comfort, it was like instead of going for a smoke it was going for a chip. lol This is extremely depressing though so much I need to nut out and navigate around just to be fnctional. I wat to cut out the peanut butter too but I have no replacements that sustain my physical energy like it, if I'm consuming chia seeds still every morning it's not enough. Must be something to do with the nutrient profile or protein as replacing it with avocado didn't seem to do the trick either. When I had increased seed oils from the tortilla chips I would get the cross over brain burny immune reaction from them at much lower amounts consumed than now but I still don't know what mediators or anything are being released because that specific immune chain reaction is also strengthened by other non-food things too (hot forehead/cheeks/flu-y/skin sensation gets lessened in my head/nasal drip/inflamed feeling/ect-). I since cutting out the tortilla chips haven't had any corn in over a week now and don't know how i'd respond to corn itself on its own under these conditions. Same thing with peas. I don't think the corn or peas were contributing to anything major at least.

 

[Wishful]

cut out the peanut butter too but I have no replacements

There's an alternative made from roasted peas. I think it's called P-nut butter. It was invented in Alberta, so I feel I should promote it. There are other nut butters too. I haven't seen hazelnut butter without chocolate, or I'd try that. You could try the different nuts on their own. How about oily seeds, such as sunflower or pumpkin? 10/10 chickadees rate sunflower seeds #1!

 

[Wonkmonk]

Plot twist: Lysine or protein might not be any problem after all.

I found that out when I checked oxalate more closely. I found out that I can eat lots of lentils with no problem, but only if they are cooked in low-calcium water (I use Volvic) and if I do not eat high-calcium foods in the 24-36h after the lentils. So it's probably not the lysine.

I now think a very large part of the problem is oxalate-containing foods and high calcium foods or drinking water (ours has lots of calcium) in the same or subsequent meals. That would really explain a lot.

This is a really new angle that I haven't thought about yet and, if confirmed, it could explain a lot of things.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Should that hypothesis be confirmed, the mechanism by which it causes symptoms would still be obscure. It cannot be any action of oxalic acid per se after absorption, because that would be lower if more calcium is consumed.

"Within the range of 200 to 1200 mg calcium per day, oxalate absorption depended linearly on the calcium intake. With 200 mg calcium per day, the mean absorption (± SD) was 17% ± 8.3%; with 1200 mg calcium per day, the mean absorption was 2.6% ± 1.5%."

https://journals.lww.com/jasn/fullt...ce_of_oxalate_absorption_on_the_daily.20.aspx

 

[Wonkmonk]

There is a condition called oxalosis.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/oxalosis

Though I can't find signs and symptoms of it when it is not associated with hyperoxaluria (which was checked on multiple occasions for other reasons and which I don't have).

 

[Dysfunkion]

There's an alternative made from roasted peas. I think it's called P-nut butter. It was invented in Alberta, so I feel I should promote it. There are other nut butters too. I haven't seen hazelnut butter without chocolate, or I'd try that. You could try the different nuts on their own. How about oily seeds, such as sunflower or pumpkin? 10/10 chickadees rate sunflower seeds #1!

Ill look into that, I could even use it if I react well to at least cut down on peanut butter. As far as I know sunflowers and pumpkin seeds are pretty neutral with me but I never had them in an significant amount before.

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So horrible un-improvement with strange dietary choice. Yesterday since some people find benefits with them I decided to try beets yesterday. I got a few organic one's from the store, skinned them, and boiled them. I also didn't realize before that they had natural sigar in them which also is a big issue with me if it's fructose but this felt different than a typical fruit reaction. I only ate a couple of them and they weren't very big. I felt terrible shortly after. Much less energy, brain disconnected from itself feeling, mood felt much worse, more bloated, much less physical strength, and later it was almost like a weird drunkness sort of feeling. I slept much deeper than I'm used to though. Luckily I feel a bit better this morning but this is certainly not the reaction anyone that uses beets is raving about and like usual in many ways it's the opposite. Beets? Never again, good thing I only had a couple of them. With fruit I get the whole body lead feeling and total mental blunting, this was a lot different but in the severe fatigue ballpark. I do want to order plain fructose and try it on it's own but that would not be fun and something I don't want to do for the information any time soon. Am wondering what the tuna thing will do under these side effect conditions considering how rapid the reaction from that is.

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I've looked into oxalates but I don't think though beets are high in them my major issue is in that area even if some oxalate load can be contributing as it's the only food I found that I have that specific weird bad reaction to which is a total paradox reaction to what people tend to get, I'll see how I feel over the course of the rest of today into the next few days but as per usual the reaction started minutes after it hit my digestive system, I've eaten a lot of spinach before and the reaction isn't like this either which is very high oxalate. I'm suspecting with me the culprit is in my microbiome creating some kind of very bad feedback loop when fed certain compounds. I have ordered an iodine supplement as I want to see how I react to that in ranges of 1-2 drops, that might give me more clues.

 

[Wishful]

I'm suspecting with me the culprit is in my microbiome creating some kind of very bad feedback loop when fed certain compounds.

That's the problem with theories about what should work for ME: most substances don't have just one effect. Chemical X might have a slight beneficial effect on a person as per the theory, but it's could be overridden by some other effect. Conversely. a theoretically "bad" chemical might produce a beneficial effect. The microbiome is a wild card, because there are so many interaction going on in the gut. It's probably not impossible for oxalates to modify the ratio of some good and bad microbes, resulting in a change in symptoms.

Theories are good for deciding what might be worth trying. Aside from that, what's important is what a substance does for you, regardless of any theories.

 

[Wishful]

My latest episode in the dietary adjustment story is that I've felt much better the last couple of days, after months of feeling worse than baseline. The difference? Due to factors, I didn't go shopping as soon as I ran out of meat. Even one meatless day reduced my lethargy, aches, and brainfog. Checking back in my journal, the last time I felt like going for a long bike ride was also after running out of meat. That time, I didn't feel worse the day after the first meat meal; it took three days before I felt lousy. I just didn't make the connection that time. This is why I'm a proponent of a food/activity/symptoms journal: I can look back and see connections I didn't notice at the time.

I'm holding off on the trip to town. I will buy some meat then, enough for 4 days, to see whether the problem reoccurs. This may be the proline intolerance I had before, so I'll get some non-meat proline-rich foods to experiment with. A recent study found abnormal arginine/proline ratios in PWME, so I'll have to dig into that. Glutamate is part of that interaction, and affects brain function, so I'll try some MSG in my experiments too.

Darn, meat makes meals satisfying.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I

That's the problem with theories about what should work for ME: most substances don't have just one effect. Chemical X might have a slight beneficial effect on a person as per the theory, but it's could be overridden by some other effect. Conversely. a theoretically "bad" chemical might produce a beneficial effect. The microbiome is a wild card, because there are so many interaction going on in the gut. It's probably not impossible for oxalates to modify the ratio of some good and bad microbes, resulting in a change in symptoms.

Theories are good for deciding what might be worth trying. Aside from that, what's important is what a substance does for you, regardless of any theories.

Yeah I learned to take everything I read on here as is, it was someone else's reaction and though we can share similarities it's never exactly the same with this condition and paradoxes will always occur. I've just learned to expect the paradox and hope for the best. As for tonight I'm thankfully feel a bit better, I was more fatigued today and a bit more brain burn-y tonight but doing ok just feeling blah. Oh well these things happen, I've been here a million times over.

 

[Wonkmonk]

If anyone also suspects oxalates to be a problem: Boiling and discarding the cooking water greatly reduces both soluble and insoluble oxalates in vegetables. I would suspect it also works in rice, grains and pasta. I think I'll do that. It's sad for the nutrients lost, but getting rid of the oxalates is probably more important than the nutrient loss.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10942910903326056

 

[Wonkmonk]

I can't find a full text for this study, but the most important part appears in snippets available online:

"However, about 2% of calcium oxalate is absorbed intact by rats, so a small fraction of insoluble oxalate may be absorbed in human beings as well."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002822307005962

This is what I suspect: A small part of the insoluble oxalate is in fact absorbed and causes systemic problems, e.g., by clogging small blood vessels outside the kidneys or, more likely, because the immune system is attacking any calcium oxalate deposits or crystals that are forming. The latter is known from patients with oxalosis because of genetic disorders or kidney problems.

An immune system sensitivity to oxalate deposits could be caused by a virus or other pathogen (my illness appeared after a viral infection). For instance, in Alpha-gal syndrome, people become allergic to meat after a tick bite.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I can't find a full text for this study, but the most important part appears in snippets available online:

"However, about 2% of calcium oxalate is absorbed intact by rats, so a small fraction of insoluble oxalate may be absorbed in human beings as well."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002822307005962

This is what I suspect: A small part of the insoluble oxalate is in fact absorbed and causes systemic problems, e.g., by clogging small blood vessels outside the kidneys or, more likely, because the immune system is attacking any calcium oxalate deposits or crystals that are forming. The latter is known from patients with oxalosis because of genetic disorders or kidney problems.

An immune system sensitivity to oxalate deposits could be caused by a virus or other pathogen (my illness appeared after a viral infection). For instance, in Alpha-gal syndrome, people become allergic to meat after a tick bite.

I'm going to try cooking the veggies I use first and discarding the water, I normally use cauliflower and bean sprouts, sometimes I throw in broccoli or peas. I've also been tested for alpha-gal but they said I don't have it so I don't know what is going on with the land meat thing and why beef produces the most hellish symptoms even if it's juice just touched food I consumed.