Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Wonkmonk]

With a quick glance at that list, I might jump to the conclusion that oxalates were responsible for my responses to those spices. However, I didn't react badly to cumin, even in much larger amounts than turmeric or ginger, so oxalates are probably not the issue for me

That's intriguing, @Wishful. What's so interesting is that you seem to react only to those spices that contain lots of soluble oxalate. Could it make a difference that only a tiny fraction of the oxalates in cumin (114 mg out of 1,505) is soluble and can be absorbed, whereas in turmeric and ginger, almost the entire oxalate is in fact soluble and bioavailable? That would also indicate that the oxalate does something bad for you when absorbed.

Interestingly, I think it's the opposite for me. I think oxalate that's not absorbed is my problem. Why? I haven't tested it with these different spices (which is actually a great idea), but I have noticed that I react extremely badly to spinach lasagna, but much less to spinach pasta. The difference being that there is cheese with lots of calcium in lasagna. Oxalates quickly form insoluble complexes with calcium. That means the oxalate isn't absorbed (it's actually a way for people with kidney stone risk to get rid of some of the oxalate). But when it's not absorbed, it goes into the microbiome and I think in my case, that's exactly the problem. I suspect it's a bacterial fermentation product of the oxalate and that the more oxalate is insoluble, the worse it gets for me.

@Wishful, an interesting test might be to eat turmeric with lots of calcium (cheese, milk or a supplement). That should turn much of the soluble oxalate into insoluble oxalate. If the soluble oxalate is your problem, then you should not react so strongly if you have an abundant calcium source together with the turmeric.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Oh, and I should add that as with other foods, it seems to be repeat consumption over days or weeks that causes the problems with oxalates. So the harmful compound either builds up in the body, or a certain bacterial species has to grow first with repeat consumption before much of the harmful stuff is produced.

That the latter is a possibility has been demonstrated with eggs/choline and the production of TMAO.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1109400

Researchers fed subjects eggs and they produced TMAO. Then they wiped out their gut microbiome with antibiotics. No TMAO was produced. Once the microflora recovered, they started producing TMAO again.

Interestingly vegans make no TMAO even without antibiotics, so whether TMAO is produced or not seems entirely dependent on regular consumption of animal foods (which interestingly I feel like I have to largely avoid):

(Screenshot from the Youtube video, source provided there)

I think I've also seen another study in which they fed vegans eggs daily and after a week or so they started producing TMAO and once they stopped the egg consumption, they stopped producing it again.

This is one reason why I do not think that TMAO specifically is my problem. I was on a vegan diet for a long time thus likely producing little or no TMAO, and that didn't by itself improve the symptoms much.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I am actually not 100% sure it's oxalate, because according to this study, roasting destroys much of the oxalate and the sesame in tahin is roasted.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2023/5394315

It may be something that is created from the oxalate during roasting. I've never really checked non-roasted sesame because I usually only eat it as tahin in hummus, but I suspect it's the same, because other high-oxalate foods like spinach cause the same problems as well.

I never considered this, is this same rule for peanuts or chia seeds which I eat a lot of? I also didn't know there even was soluble or insoluble oxalates and thought they were just one big thing. Usually in morning I' don't have as much time and I'm like a zombie so I just shove some raw peanut butter and chia seeds down my throat and let it be. Wonder if I'd get improvements if I went back to cooking them kind of like a little breakfast bar in the oven.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I never considered this, is this same rule for peanuts or chia seeds which I eat a lot of? I also didn't know there even was soluble or insoluble oxalates and thought they were just one big thing.

Hi @Dysfunkion, that's a great question. A problem is that it's hard to get good estimates for the oxalate contents of foods and the amounts vary a lot in different sources.

What I can say is that peanuts aren't usually thought of as very high in oxalates. This source says ~150mg per 100g (and who eats 100g), most of it soluble.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...1000000/Available-oxalate-content-of-nuts.pdf

This also says peanuts are relatively low:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889157506001864

For chia seeds, this source says oxalates are "high" without giving a number.

https://www.kidney.org/sites/default/files/441-9600_2311_patflyer_superfood-flax.pdf

This study says for chia seeds 380 mg oxalate per one-quarter cup.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7705561/

So the chia seeds are probably a concern. Assuming you might have a similar problem than mine, I would also suspect that if you eat them every morning, the repeated consumption even of a smaller amount of oxalates would cause problems.

 

[Wishful]

What's so interesting is that you seem to react only to those spices that contain lots of soluble oxalate.

Those spices contain more than just oxalates. My sensitivity to various spices correlated strongly with their ratings as peroxynitrite scavengers. In that listing, I didn't encounter any "that doesn't fit my hypothesis" spices. Of course, it was a short list, so that's no guarantee that it proved that the problem was peroxynitrite scavenging, but I was satisfied with the evidence.

If you try two (or more) foods with well-known figures for soluble and insoluble oxalates (or any other chemical) with significantly different levels, such as 2x or 4x, you can check whether your reaction matches that difference. I used that method to identify my sensitivity to proline when I was intolerant of that. I tried various foods with different levels of amino acids, and proline was the one that matched. There were some correlations among other amino acids, but as with the list of oxalates above, there were some "clearly doesn't fit" responses that removed them as culprits.

Since most foods contain multiple factors, it can take many tests to identify the active factor. Trying only a short list of foods can be misleading. Of course, if your response to whatever it is is severe, you really don't want to test all that many things. It can be less awful to just avoid suspect foods that might not be a problem.

For foods that are supposed to be "good for you" that you don't like, suspected intolerance is a good excuse for not consuming them in the recommended amounts.


The good news is that ME intolerances can go away over time. I've had several intolerances that went away. The flip side is that foods that were safe for decades can become problematic. Some months ago I developed an intolerance to chocolate and coffee, so those are on my "avoid" list for now.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I have always suspected that consuming oxalate-containing foods with calcium (also in subsequent meals) is a problem, Now I have a potential mechanism for that: Turning soluble oxalate into insoluble oxalate that can't be absorbed and thereby making it available for microbial fermentation in the gut.

I am not sure that's the real reason or whole story though. Calcium also makes it worse when I eat to much protein/lysine. I think calcium just augments the negative effects of these intolerances.

But it doesn't really matter why, what is important is that I just have to separate calcium and oxalates and generally try to avoid oxalate as much as possible (both soluble and insoluble).

 

[Wonkmonk]

I never considered this, is this same rule for peanuts or chia seeds which I eat a lot of?

If you're looking for an alternative to these: Coconut (in all forms) seems to have almost no oxalate, according to several sources.

I will experiment with using a meal of coconut and bananas (one of the fruit lowest in oxalate per calorie) to counteract meals that were higher in oxalate (like my occasional hummus which I feel like I can't let go).

As a replacement for chia seeds and peanuts, it should be noted that coconuts have a much worse fatty acid profile, but as far as I'm concerned, I believe any symptoms I get are way worse for my health than any saturated fat from coconut. When my whole body hurts and my heart pounds etc. I think that's causing some damage, too, so I'll take the saturated fat. That said, I am otherwise low risk for cardiovascular disease.

 

[Dysfunkion]

If you're looking for an alternative to these: Coconut (in all forms) seems to have almost no oxalate, according to several sources.

I will experiment with using a meal of coconut and bananas (one of the fruit lowest in oxalate per calorie) to counteract meals that were higher in oxalate (like my occasional hummus which I feel like I can't let go).

As a replacement for chia seeds and peanuts, it should be noted that coconuts have a much worse fatty acid profile, but as far as I'm concerned, I believe any symptoms I get are way worse for my health than any saturated fat from coconut. When my whole body hurts and my heart pounds etc. I think that's causing some damage, too, so I'll take the saturated fat. That said, I am otherwise low risk for cardiovascular disease.

I used to cook with coconut oil sometimes and that was pretty good, the last time I did I was much worse than I am right now so I'm not sure how it was really affecting things in the grand scheme of things. I've tried to kick the peanuts and chia seeds combo before but nothing gives me baseline energy like them and I just completely crash if I stop as if it's not bad enough already hanging over the energy pit by a string. It's similar to the methyl-b12 trap I'm stuck in, I want alternatives but if I stop than I crash and hard.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I had suspected oxalates for some time now (esp. in combination with calcium), but I now think I found out that calcium in subsequent meals is also a problem, which is a new idea. And that seems to be about the next 2-3 meals at least.

I will therefore have to revisit some high-calcium foods that I have put in the avoid category like kale. It may be the case that I just thought kale (very high in calcium) causes problems because I ate it after high-oxalate meals or with wholegrain pasta (which is relatively high in oxalate). If the past 2-3 meals were low oxalate or if I adopt a low oxalate diet in general, kale might be good to eat.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I'm haviing some real interesting weirdness from raw black garlic specifically right now. Last night I had some and it made me much more clear headed and less inflamed feeling but in minutes started warfare in my guts with some bloating and some radiating stomach pain. Also got a huge release of some vile mucus from my head which I spit out as if it killed something, it attached to the black garlic, and I was able to spit it out. I woke up feeling pretty groggy with my stomach feeling a bit acidic but black garlic itself isn't very acidic. I think the vitamin C I take every morning is even more so and nothing else I consume specifically does this. When this stomach reaction is acting up I'm much more physically lethargic but under it I'm much more cognitively clear.

Cooked black garlic I can eat in any quantity and it doesn't do this so it's something specific in raw black garlic that does this that is destroyed by cooking. Regular garlic in any form or allicin itself also doesn't do this so it's strictly a raw black garlic compound thing.

 

[Wishful]

I'm haviing some real interesting weirdness

I had some unpleasant weirdness recently. I had a fried ground beef patty, as I had for the past few days. A few hours later, I had a sharp pain in my groin. Then severe pain started in my abdomen. I first assumed food poisoning, but there wasn't he expected diarrhea. Maybe the bits of meat formed a blockage? I spent hours unable to find a position that eased the pain. "F**k, f**k, Make it stop!!!" Finally I ended up on knees and elbows, and that felt slightly better. I tried shifting my hips side-side, and that seemed to help. Ten minutes of that and the pain was gone. I continued those movements for maybe half an hour, because I really, really, really did not want that pain to start up again.

Since then, I've had worse ME general symptoms and lower endurance. I don't think ME is a gut disorder, but the gut certainly seems to play a significant role in symptom severity.

Additional weirdness: an hour or so into the gut pain, I felt overheated and sweating, so I checked my temperature: 36.0C. The following evening, I felt more groggy/achy/lethargic, and my temperature was 37.2C. Normally I'm fairly constant at 36.65C, so this gut issue has messed up my thermoregulation.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Cooked black garlic I can eat in any quantity and it doesn't do this so it's something specific in raw black garlic

That's interesting and strange. How do you make the black garlic? I thought it gets heated for >60 C for a longer period of time, so it would always be cooked.

think the vitamin C I take every morning...

Just want to add here that Vitamin C gets in part converted to oxalate in the body. Though for me I am not sure if absorbed oxalate or oxalate that is created in the body is a problem because I had very high-dose intravenous Vitamin C as an experimental treatment and nothing changed much. I also took high-dose (several grams a day) Vitamin C orally without a large effect (neither positive nor negative). Therefore, I operate under the assumption that it's all microbiome-mediated in my case.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I don't think ME is a gut disorder, but the gut certainly seems to play a significant role in symptom severity.

I also don't think so. I think the type of ME I have is a dormant virus that's activated or whose replication is helped by certain compounds produced by bacteria in the gut. I think it's Long Covid caused by one of the pre-covid endemic coronaviruses (because it started in the summer of 2007 after an infection, which may well have been a coronavirus). But that's just my personal speculation.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I really have to check a lot of foods again with the new calcium plus oxalate hypothesis. Maybe foods like potatos and sweet potatos (very high in oxalates per calorie) can be tolerated if calcium is avoided for the next 24 hours.

A tricky thing to remember is that one can't actually go low on calcium, because once you go too low, parathyroid hormone is upregulated and calcium is mobilized from the bones so the blood level always stays between 2.15-2.55 mmol/l or close to that range.

That said, I think what's causing the most problems is the peak concentrations after the meals and those would be higher for a while when calcium load is high.

So my current hypothesis is that I can tolerate potatos if all meals in the next 24 hours are low calcium. That would be amazing because I am really struggling with the very low diversity of my current meal plan. Any new food would be highly welcome.

 

[xploit316]

So my current hypothesis is that I can tolerate potatos if all meals in the next 24 hours are low calcium

I personally dont consume Potatoes, gives me bloating and some depressive mental effects the following day. One thing that I have noted in my food journal is potatoes consumed with red meat (I only eat Lamb occasionally maybe 1-2 a year) did not give these symptoms, Iron from lamb antagonizing the calcium?

There is also a member from RP forum who got hypercalcemia whenever he consumed any Nightshades (especially Potato, Tomato). He suspects nightshades contain calcitriol.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That's interesting and strange. How do you make the black garlic? I thought it gets heated for >60 C for a longer period of time, so it would always be cooked.

Just want to add here that Vitamin C gets in part converted to oxalate in the body. Though for me I am not sure if absorbed oxalate or oxalate that is created in the body is a problem because I had very high-dose intravenous Vitamin C as an experimental treatment and nothing changed much. I also took high-dose (several grams a day) Vitamin C orally without a large effect (neither positive nor negative). Therefore, I operate under the assumption that it's all microbiome-mediated in my case.

Oh I don't make it I buy the premade stuff and yeah I think it needs to be heated in some way to do it's thing and become black garlic? I'd have to look that up but I've repeated this one multiple times and at least reheating it with high heat cooking renders whatever effect this is from it inactive.

Vitamin C is essential to me, if I don't take it my energy levels drop to below functional in a way somewhat similar but less damaging as if I was to stop taking methyl-b12. I don't get any negative side effects from it at 1 gram a day.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I'd have to look that up but I've repeated this one multiple times and at least reheating it with high heat cooking renders whatever effect this is from it inactive.

Ok, then whatever makes you worse in black garlic seems to be destroyed or removed by boiling. I just looked it up and according to the first source in Google, black garlic is produced at 155 to 175 F so about 70-80 C. So whatever makes you worse, you have to go above 80 C to remove it.

Maybe you can find other foods that aren't heated over 80 C and try heating them closer to 100 C and see if they might then be ok for you. Maybe it's not just black garlic. Just a thought.

 

[Wonkmonk]

In Germany, tap water is always safe to drink and very good quality (I hear it's not like this everywhere in the U.S., but luckily, here it is). Our tap water has a very high calcium content. I haven't found the exact content so far, but every tiny bit of water tha remains in a pot or glass leaves behind a white calcium residue, so the content must be substantial.

I have a feeling like this tap water makes me worse although it cannot be the calcium content per se. Even if it had 300-400 mg per liter (which would be super high for tap water), drinking a glass or two wouldn't be a high dose of calcium.

What I believe is that the calcium dissolved in the tap water gets absorbed too quickly and then causes a calcium spike and that's not good. Calcium from food is absorbed much more slowly.

I will test this hypothesis by using a low-calcium mineral water for drinking and cooking while keeping the overall calcium intake within recommended levels with other foods.

 

[Wonkmonk]

One more thought on that. Blood concentration of calcium is about 10 mg per deciliter, which is about 100mg/liter.

It might be worthwhile trying to not exceed that concentration in food or drinks. So not consume any water that has much more than 100mg per liter, because once that goes into the blood, it causes a spike.

Also drink low-calcium water to foods that are higher in calcium in order to dilute the calcium so there is no immediate spike.

Not sure if that's how it works physiologically, but I'm going to try doind that at least to some degree.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I have experimented with sweet potato again and sadly I find them consistently causing symptoms. I presume this is because of a high oxalate content.

The sources are contradictory. The first hit at Google are various lists that list it among the lower-oxalate foods with 28 mg per 100g. However, other sources name much higher numbers. One study says it could be close to 500mg per 100g, which would put it close to the infamously-high spinach, wich has 700-800mg per 100g according to sources I've seen. (and. no, it's not on a dry-weight basis, the source explicitly says "raw" sweet potato whereas it says "seeds, dry" for beens and lentils)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343457663_Oxalate-rich_foods

I am still not sure if soluble or insoluble oxalate is the greater problem or if it doesn't matter. That same study says cocoa powder has about 600mg oxalate per 100g, so also very high. I have noticed that I crash pretty terribly with larger amounts of cocoa (I think I once tried 50g), once it was so bad I was seriously contemplating going to the ER. The study says that, unlike must other foods, for cocoa, the oxalate is almost entirely soluble (571 mg out of 619 mg total oxalate). That could be a hint that soluble oxalate is worse than unsoluble. However, I could also be other compounds in the cocoa or a combination thereof (theobromine, tannins, caffeine...).

The bottom line is sweet potato and cocoa are completely out.