I tried whole wheat pancakes, which probably fall into the category of of yeast-free bread.
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Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments
- Thread starter Wonkmonk
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- food food sensitivity
Zucchini are high salicylates according to a couple of sources.
And? Did it work?
I've seen that, too, but the data seem to be very confusing and are basically useless. Some sources say very low, other say very high
I eliminated them again and my gum inflammation is starting to improve, so I suspect there was something in the Zucchini, salicylates or something else, that wasn't good.
It looks like my blood pressure must not fall too low, otherwise, that causes a worsening. Blueberries and mushrooms can lower blood pressure in higher amount. I am also using 25% potassium salt. Sun tanning, which I do moderately every once in a while also lowers blood pressure.
When I do all of those, it appears I'm going too low.
I will get rid of the potassium salt and see if that's enough or if I have to cut down on the other stuff, too.
When I do all of those, it appears I'm going too low.
I will get rid of the potassium salt and see if that's enough or if I have to cut down on the other stuff, too.
Yes, no problems from wheat flour. I haven't had a brainfoggy/lethargic day since avoiding bread, coffee and hot chocolate. Yesterday I tried significant amounts of BBQ sauce, and this morning felt a bit groggy. I'll have to retest that, since the grogginess could have other causes.
I expect that many of us could have at least somewhat better days if we figured out which common factors were making us worse.
pattismith
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Erythritol quickly fixes my headache (induced brain vasoconstriction from methylphenidate use).
I suppose Erythritol have the ability to cause vasodilation in the brain or at less in some part of the brain.
Erythritol can also improve glucose intake by the muscle so it has some interesting properties.
Could the slight problem you had from Erythritol caused by an heavy dose?
That's interesting. While I don't have that particular problem, I get fissures and tears on my lips when I eat certain foods. I haven't paid attention to that, because it's only a minor symptoms, so I can't say which foods exactly cause it, but I realized that happened a several times.
Hi Patti,
thanks for the info on erythritol. I have come to believe that the erythritol played no part in the headaches and that it was all caused by the cocoa (possibly the caffeine and theobromine, which is a vasoconstrictor and can cause headache in people).
I tried erythritol as a sweetener for grain flakes and almond milk and there were no headaches specifically. Right now, I am sweetening with frozen banana puree, which appears to work as well.
A few observations (some relatively important):
*It looks like i have no problem with large amounts of carbs. The problem is with calorie deficit and when I ate high-carb/very low fat, I usually ran a substantial calorie deficit. I think that was what caused the symptoms, so paradoxically, I needed more carbs and not less to make up for the lower calorie count.
*I have to stop using potassium chloride salt completely. I think all the problems I had with mushrooms and blueberries and thyroxine or low blood pressure started when I started using 1/4 potassium chloride to replace some table salt. I think that my blood pressure goes down too much from the combination of these.
*A meal made of 5-grain flakes (wheat, spelt, barley, rye, oat), almond milk and banana puree seems to work nicely, also in larger amounts.
*High lysine intake from whatever source (legumes, cheese, meat, supplements) seems to be invariably bad. (I pointed that out before, but had questioned it, but it's still the case sadly)
*My last meal of the day should be low calcium. I think this is because parathyroid hormone is upregulated after 21:00 and calcium is then elevated. I will try to routinely have 150g (6 oz.) of white pasta cooked in low-calcium mineral water with a tomato or some nutritional yeast and salt for dinner. (actually it's not that bad and tastes better than it sounds!)
These were my most recent findings. I am listing them, because I know if someone ever has the same thing and reads this thread, this will be very helpful for that person. It certainly would have been for me had I known it earlier. Hope this helps someone some day!
*It looks like i have no problem with large amounts of carbs. The problem is with calorie deficit and when I ate high-carb/very low fat, I usually ran a substantial calorie deficit. I think that was what caused the symptoms, so paradoxically, I needed more carbs and not less to make up for the lower calorie count.
*I have to stop using potassium chloride salt completely. I think all the problems I had with mushrooms and blueberries and thyroxine or low blood pressure started when I started using 1/4 potassium chloride to replace some table salt. I think that my blood pressure goes down too much from the combination of these.
*A meal made of 5-grain flakes (wheat, spelt, barley, rye, oat), almond milk and banana puree seems to work nicely, also in larger amounts.
*High lysine intake from whatever source (legumes, cheese, meat, supplements) seems to be invariably bad. (I pointed that out before, but had questioned it, but it's still the case sadly)
*My last meal of the day should be low calcium. I think this is because parathyroid hormone is upregulated after 21:00 and calcium is then elevated. I will try to routinely have 150g (6 oz.) of white pasta cooked in low-calcium mineral water with a tomato or some nutritional yeast and salt for dinner. (actually it's not that bad and tastes better than it sounds!)
These were my most recent findings. I am listing them, because I know if someone ever has the same thing and reads this thread, this will be very helpful for that person. It certainly would have been for me had I known it earlier. Hope this helps someone some day!
@Wonkmonk I think that experiment may have been too short. I tried more wheat flour for several days and felt worse. Avoiding wheat made me feel better again a few days later. I even felt well enough that I did some tidying up, which only happens when I do feel better than usual. However, a few days later, I felt worse again. Now I'm wondering if it's not as simple as a specific molecule in a food. It might be that a food changes the microbiome, resulting in the symptoms. It might even be more complex, such as food x in the colon while food y is in the small intestine, with nutrient z levels in the body playing a role.
Have you ruled out celiac disease and gluten sensitivity? (I have, went to a gastroentorologist)
This is 100% what I think
It's very complex and almost certainly microbiome-mediated. Bugs, probably ubiquitous ones, produce compounds that trigger something in the body (probably viral activation or autoimmunity). These bugs grow better or worse based on what we eat, and they need certain nutrients to make the harmful compounds (I suspect lysine, choline and a fermentable fiber or carbohydrate substrate).
That's why it's not as simple as just not eating this or that or not eating certain foods together.
*Some foods may just make the bacteria grow better, but don't give them the nutrients to make the harmful compounds -->Symptoms appear with a large time lag the next time the then multiplying bacteria get the nutrients
*The bacteria feed on meal 1 and get some of the nutrients they need to make the harmful compounds, the meal passes the stomach, but the fed bacteria are still there. Then the next meal comes and the pre-fed bacteria get different nutrients and suddenly make the harmful compound.
*Something you eat (garlic, onion, ginger other spices) kills the bacteria, which then release the harmful compounds they have stored leading to a symptom flare.
There are so many ways in which this can happen und it's extraordinarily complicated to understand and influence that dynamic. It's not as easy as just avoiding gluten or histamine or lactose. It's hugely complicated.
Oh, and why do I think it's ubiquitous bacteria? I got all sorts of antibiotics off label for this conditions: Ampicillin/Sulbactam, penicilin G, erythromycin, doxcycline. None of those ever affected my symptoms. So if it were a special bug, one of those would probably have killed it or at least affected it. But antibiotics never worked.
I have made the observation that when I eat raw pre-soaked rolled grain flakes (e.g., "overnight oats"), I get symptoms, but I do not get the same symptoms from cooked porridge or when I eat grain flakes immediately without soaking.
I suspect that is because the lactic acid bacteria that are always present on the grains get a headstart when they get pre-soaked whereas when they are cooked, they die and when they are eaten right away, they get killed/slowed down by the stomach acid and much of the nutrients they need are absorbed before they can use them.
There are always natural bacteria present on grain flakes and flour. One can use them to make sourdough without a starter or yeast or anything.
Interestingly, I get no problem from baker's yeast. I can ferment my homemade bread for an entire day without getting symptoms from eating the bread. So the harmful compounds are likely not produced by yeast, but more likely by lactic acid bacteria.
That also explains why I get very strong symptoms from soy yoghurt and tofu, which, while pasteurized in the end, is made from long-soaked or fermented soy beans. Plenty of time for the bacteria to use the lysine, choline and fiber to make what makes me sick.
I will update on that theory if I learn more.
I suspect that is because the lactic acid bacteria that are always present on the grains get a headstart when they get pre-soaked whereas when they are cooked, they die and when they are eaten right away, they get killed/slowed down by the stomach acid and much of the nutrients they need are absorbed before they can use them.
There are always natural bacteria present on grain flakes and flour. One can use them to make sourdough without a starter or yeast or anything.
Interestingly, I get no problem from baker's yeast. I can ferment my homemade bread for an entire day without getting symptoms from eating the bread. So the harmful compounds are likely not produced by yeast, but more likely by lactic acid bacteria.
That also explains why I get very strong symptoms from soy yoghurt and tofu, which, while pasteurized in the end, is made from long-soaked or fermented soy beans. Plenty of time for the bacteria to use the lysine, choline and fiber to make what makes me sick.
I will update on that theory if I learn more.
This is very interesting. Based on the research that I've found last year, I started soaking rice for 24hrs in a rice sourdough to remove excess phytate and it worked well for that purpose, but if you're right it means that I have introduced high amount of lactate into my diet, one of the things that I need to avoid because it makes my symptoms worse. I am not sure if bacteria would survive one hour cooking, but their metabolites such as lactate can still be there.
I wonder if it also happens with legumes, I use the same approach 24hrs soaking, the difference is I soak them in plain water because they do not need any starter, but if it creates lactates as well then this would be contraindicated.
Legumes can also increase my fatigue and sometimes I have a similar reaction to yoghurt. So in my case it's bacteria and/or their lactate metabolites, d-lactate strains being worse. D-lactic acidosis has been discussed on this forum as well. I suspect that probiotics that I took years ago can be one of the causes of my ME/CFS.
If baker's yeast would help with removing phytates as well, then this would be a solution here and this paper says it's a yes, it's a good source of phytase to break down phytic acid. Frying raw rice or putting it in the oven for a while to kill off the bacteria prior to soaking could also be helpful, but maybe not necessary as yeast would probably overgrow any bacteria that may still be there.
Hi Xpoit, that's an approach that might be worth following. I have dropped all animal foods from my meal plan, because they are all very high in Lysine (except occasional cheese). In fact, that's a main problem why some vegans get protein deficient. They have enough protein, but not enough lysine, unless they eat legumes regularly. I try to keep lysine to an absolute minimum and that's easiest on a plant based diet.
If you are reducing or eliminating animal products from your diet, be sure to be very careful to still have all nutrients by supplements. It's not just B12, It can be difficult to get enough B2, B6, Vit. D, selenium (in Europe only), calcium, iron (mostly for women) and zinc on a plant-based diet. It's very important to do this with ones eyes wide open.
Come to think of it, the first (and only time) I tried probiotics in early 2017, along with terrible bloating, joint pain and fatigue that came along with it the following year I was diagonsed Hypothyroid.
I will try this. Would microwaving raw parboiled rice for 2-3 minutes prior to boiling work too or does it need to be in an oven, soaked and than cooked?
Hey, Viala, thanks for your messages, which were very interesting.
Bacteria would definitely not survive one hour of cooking, but as you say, whatever the bacteria produce can survive cooking. That's one reason why e. coli infested foods don't become safe to eat by cooking them.
So the method of preparation seems to matter.
I would suggest longer soaking of legumes would produce some degree of bacterial activity and that would also involve the production of lactic acid by lactic acid bacteria.
I would suggest that the amount produced is lower for intact legumes than for the soaking of flour, white rice with the bran removed or rolled oats. The intact seed has defenses against bacteria.
What I will do when making hummus in the future is soak the chickpeas in water >70 C (160 F) because that kills all the bacteria.
I just saw you had a similar idea. Pre-frying should work just as well.
That's a possibility, but normally, all bacteria you take from commercial probiotics are ubiquitous. They are everywhere in soil, food and people. It's unlikely that you introduced a new strain that made you sick in to your digestive system.
If you think lactic acid is a problem specifically, I think that can be purchased in a pure form, so theoretically you could test that hypothesis directly (won't taste great though).
I think the answer is a yes. Soaking, sprouting, fermenting, and heating are all suspected to reduce phytate content to varying degress.
I just had the following idea:
If metabolic products of lactic acid bacteria make me worse and bakers yeast doesn't produce any compounds that make me worse, what if I swallow a teaspoon of active dry yeast with every meal?
If I activate the yeast with some warm water beforehand, shouldn't the yeast have a headstart and crowd out all the other bacteria, at least for a while, and when they catch up, a good deal of the nutrients they need to make the harmful compounds would already be digested, absorbed or consumed by the yeast?
I will definitely try that. Bakers yeast is non-pathogenic and consumed live in beer in high amounts (I hear bakers and brewers yeast is the same or at least closely related). It should be safe to try this unless one has IBS or Morbus Crohn or something.
If metabolic products of lactic acid bacteria make me worse and bakers yeast doesn't produce any compounds that make me worse, what if I swallow a teaspoon of active dry yeast with every meal?
If I activate the yeast with some warm water beforehand, shouldn't the yeast have a headstart and crowd out all the other bacteria, at least for a while, and when they catch up, a good deal of the nutrients they need to make the harmful compounds would already be digested, absorbed or consumed by the yeast?
I will definitely try that. Bakers yeast is non-pathogenic and consumed live in beer in high amounts (I hear bakers and brewers yeast is the same or at least closely related). It should be safe to try this unless one has IBS or Morbus Crohn or something.
Yes, I tried gluten on its own with no problems from it.
I recently tried one tsp of white flour and had a very sluggish and brainfoggy next day. I wondered whether it was the enriched aspect responsible, since I wasn't that sensitive to whole wheat flour. I took part of a niacin tablet last evening, and feel close to baseline today, so it doesn't seem to be that. B1 and B2 don't seem to cause problems either. Maybe it's a complex problem, with the extra processing and additions changing how the microbiome responds.
I don't think it's quite that simple. The yeast will consume sugars and starches, but won't deprive the other microbes of proteins, fibre, etc, that they prefer. I consider this experiment as "you won't know until you try it", since we lack a model of ME.
Prepare for belching/burping!