Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Wonkmonk]

I also found that plain onion soup (onions, water, nothing else) doesn't cause a lot of symptoms even when I activate the onion enzymes by consuming some of the onions raw.

I now strongly suspect it's the combination with fats that's the problem.

 

[Dysfunkion]

For some reason I haven't totally figured out yet, spinach is one of the worst foods to eat for me. It's even worse than kale, which has similar nutrients.

I think it may be the high choline and/or the high oxalate in spinach. I think oxalate as a cause for all sorts of symptoms is really underappreciated. Many people would probably profit from reducing it in their diet.


Also a problem for me: Pungent brassica (cabbage) and allium (leek, garlic) family vegetables. But again, it seems it's only with fat and protein that the negative effect is most pronounced.

I wonder if it's because I just overloaded my system with oxalates I couldn't handle but I don't think I'm normally oxalate sensitive, I eat garlic all the time (black garlic specifically these days) and it's one of my safest foods actually. In fact I don't know what I'd do without my beloved garlic. It's weird though with the cabbage thing because cauliflower is a staple vegetable for me every week and broccoli doesn't present any big issues either but it's not perfect for me as it's a bit less tolerated than cauliflower just like anything that happens to be green which appears to generally ramp up my immune system a bit more. I am going to give asparagus a try today at a small amount lightly cooked in water and see how I react to that.

 

[Wishful]

just like anything that happens to be green

Just curious: do you have cravings for greens? I can go for years without greens without even wistful desires. My ME is a convenient excuse for not "eating my vegetables".

 

[Dysfunkion]

Just curious: do you have cravings for greens? I can go for years without greens without even wistful desires. My ME is a convenient excuse for not "eating my vegetables".

Sometimes, I eat broccoli semi-frequently and that's enough to keep it down. I crave a good salad sometimes too but I don't know if that's "the greens" or just a taste sensory thing I'm craving.

 

[Wonkmonk]

anything that happens to be green... I am going to give asparagus

Same thing, I basically have to avoid all greens. Asparagus wasn't too bad though, both white and green. I suspect even the green one doesn't have a lot of "green" in it compared to spinach or kale.

 

[Wonkmonk]

do you have cravings for greens?

I wouldn't call it "cravings" but I would really enjoy eating greens, but can't. I think I would just feel better if I could include some in my diet. I think we're made to eat at least some amount of greens although we technically might not need them to survive. But no real "cravings".

I do have real cravings for high-lysine foods (hummus, lentils, cheese) and that makes sense because it's an essential amino acid needed for survival. My diet is very low lysine and I clearly feel that the body wants me to eat more of it.

 

[Wonkmonk]

New insight: Mushrooms before or after high-lysine meals (legumes, hummus, cheese) causes a crash.

I don't have a good theory for why that happens, but I noticed it several times now.

From now, I will make mushroom pasta only my first meal in the morning with spaghetti the evening before and for lunch thereafter.

 

[Wonkmonk]

It looks like mushrooms do cause symptoms when I blend them up to a creamy sauce. I tried simple mushroom paste (mushrooms, some nutritional yeast, water, salt, pasta) with about 1/4 of the mushrooms blended into the sauce. That caused symptoms whereas just eating the mushrooms usually didn't cause symptoms.

I will refrain from blending the mushrooms from now, but what this shows is that even the preparation method might play a role. I will have to check if this applies to other foods as well (e.g., potatos mashed vs. whole).

 

[xploit316]

It looks like mushrooms do cause symptoms when I blend them up to a creamy sauce. I tried simple mushroom paste (mushrooms, some nutritional yeast, water, salt, pasta) with about 1/4 of the mushrooms blended into the sauce. That caused symptoms whereas just eating the mushrooms usually didn't cause symptoms.

What symptoms do you get? I also cant tolerate store bought sauces of any kind. Symptoms vary but usually get head pressure, scalp itch, bloating and also neurological symptoms.

 

[Wonkmonk]

What symptoms do you get? I also cant tolerate store bought sauces of any kind. Symptoms vary but usually get head pressure, scalp itch, bloating and also neurological symptoms.

Same as you, I get a whole host of symptoms, most prominently:
*Headache
*Dizziness, brain fogg
*Fatigue (have to lie down), sleepiness (suddenly fall asleep for up to 2 hours during the day)
*Palpitations, unpleasantly strong heartbeat, higher pulse frequency
*Chest pain
*Nervousness, slight tingling sensations in hands and arms
*Lower back pain
*Pain in various bones and joints
*Upset stomach, bloating, getting slightly nauseous

These symptom flares are 100% correlated with some offending foods or combination of foods and then last for about 3-4 days, which is about the time it needs for the foods to pass the digestive tract. If the offending food is avoided, the symptoms subside.

I am never symptom free, I have most of these symptoms whatever I eat, but to a MUCH lower extent.

I haven't found a way to eat that would make me completely symptom free or set me on a path where I get less and less symptoms over time (just as I got more and more before I did the diet adjustments). I feel like such a diet *could* exist, but I am not sure if it exists or if I will ever find it.

The more I find out, the more complcated it gets.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I have some more evidence that it is in fact a problem that has to do with the microbiome.

Fruit and especially blueberries do not cause severe symptoms, except if the previous or following meal contained legumes or cheese (high-lysine foods, fat seems to make things even worse). But if both the preceding and subsequent two meals (didn't try one so far) are spaghetti (150g white spaghetti plus either one fresh tomato or one fresh Zucchini), no significant symptom flare, even if the third meal contains legumes (I tried falafel, which it seems I can tolerate occasionally).

--> If the blueberries/fruit mix with the high-lysine foods from the previous or subsequent meals, a symptom flare occurs. If consumed two meals further down the road, no significant symptom flare, because no mixing.

This probably wouldn't happen if the problem occurred elsewhere in the body after absorption of nutrients and other chemicals from the foods. The problem is created in the gut, probably by bacteria.

 

[Wonkmonk]

An another important insight is that meal mixing with the subsequent and the previous meal always happens to some extent. 6 hours, or even 12 hours (overnight) between meals is not enough to prevent it. Whatever comes after and before always mixes.

So problematic foods like high-lysine foods or fruit have to be "enveloped" by non-offending meals, the best of which is probably white spaghetti (with their one zucchini or one tomato and salt only)

 

[Wonkmonk]

Maybe it's worth trying this: If mixing of subsequent meals is a problem, it would probably be good not to drink for 4 hours after a meal. The water passes the stomach and small intestine more quickly than the meal and takes some soluble nutrients with it.

On the other hand, it may not matter too much because at some point I have to drink and the same thing maybe happens 4 hours later. But some nutrients will have been absorbend and can no longer be flushed further down by the water so less will mix with the last meal(s).

Maybe worth trying.

 

[xploit316]

@Wonkmonk How has your experience been with fast digesting carbs eaten by themselves?
For me any fast digesting carbs creates anxiety 1.5-2hours after consumption.
Small portion of meat with carb rich meals helps but I think the effect is weak. I cant go too high with fiber as it creates colon/intestinal problems (bloating, gas in upper left abdomen, belly button infection).
Even plain water consumed by itself on empty stomach causes mild issues.

 

[Wonkmonk]

How has your experience been with fast digesting carbs eaten by themselves?
For me any fast digesting carbs creates anxiety 1.5-2hours after consumption.
Small portion of meat with carb rich meals helps but I think the effect is weak. I cant go too high with fiber as it creates colon/intestinal problems (bloating, gas in upper left abdomen, belly button infection).
Even plain water consumed by itself on empty stomach causes mild issues.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and sorry for responding late. I wasn't logged in for a while.

I have not felt any negative symptoms just from eating fast-digesting carbs so far. I generally seem to have a problem with an overload of carbs in general, but their glycemic index doesn't seem to matter a lot. For instance, I eat a lot of white bread and white pasta with no problems. Mashed potatos (without fat) seem to work ok, too. So all in all, I don't think fast-digesting carbs is a big issue for me personally.

I don't think fiber is a big problem either. I can eat meals with 30-40 grams of fiber easily (e.g., 150g of lentils with pasta).

 

[Wonkmonk]

I think I mentioned that a few months ago already. I have revisited salicylates (or perhaps other acids) as a problematic nutrient. I get symptoms for up to a week when I eat several pounds of blueberries, especially the sour, low-bush variety. I strongly suspect that it has to do with the salicylates or another special acid in sour berries.

I can tolerate apples and lemon juice much better even though both hat a lot of acid, so I think it's a special acid and not citric acid or malic acid.

Salicylates are also present in non-sour foods like spinach, nightshades and dates/dry fruid, all of which causing my trouble.

Sadly, there does not appear to be a good source that states how much salicylate is in different foods. Values seem to vary a great deal. For instance, for zucchini, I have found sources saying both "negligible amount" and "very high amount". I think I will limit zucchinis for a while to see if it makes a difference.

It's worth mentioning, however, that foods I can tolerate well (white bread, white pasta, fresh mushrooms, apples, avocados) are relatively low in salicylates (at least according to some sources).

Sour berries are high according to almost all sources, and they cause problems, so I will switch from blueberries to apples and bananas.

 

[Wonkmonk]

A few very quick findings:

1. Zucchini is out again. Not 100% sure, but I think I get inflamed gums from eating it repeatedly. Strange.

2. Really important to have at least two low protein meals before and after fruit. Having fruit with, before or after a high-protein meal, especially legumes or cheese, leads to an immediate an severe worsening.

3. Blueberries must be limited to 1 pound or less per meal and day. I went up to 4 pounds in one meal and I think it makes my blood pressure drop too much.

4. Repeat consumption is a big deal for almost everything. I can eat 4 avocados (and probably more) in one meal with no significant worsening, but 2 avocados every day for 3-4 days causes problems.

I will check #4 with walnuts as well. Maybe a lot more foods are permitted once or twice a week, but not repeatedly.

 

[Wishful]

My most recent changes are that bread is out and so are potato chips (both cause severe brainfog). It's not the wheat, so maybe the yeast. It's not worth the brainfog to try verifying that. Chocolate and coffee (even decaf) are out too.

 

[Wonkmonk]

It's not the wheat, so maybe the yeast.

Have you tried yeast-free bread?

Chocolate and coffee (even decaf) are out too.

Same for me. Not sure about decaf. I thought it's about the caffeine/theobromine because green tea is out as well.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I tried potatos yesterday and got pretty strong headaches today. This is interesting because it looks like I can eat potatos in the fall and winter, but not in the spring and summer.

Early harvested potatos contain a lot more glycoalkaloids (e.g., solanine) than those hargested in the fall, at least in Europe, so that would be my guess.