Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Wishful]

In my case, my theory was that I was intolerant of something in seed germ, but that was contradicted by tolerating peanut butter -- but not roasted peanuts. Searching for "peanut butter hearts removed" revealed that the hearts (germ) are removed before making butter, to avoid bitterness. The hearts are sold for birdfood and maybe other higher-value markets.

So, if you encounter some contradiction to your theory, check the assumptions, such as 100% peanuts meaning 100% of each peanut.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Even the cheapest artificially produced citric acid molecules are identical to the ones made in your mitochondria.

Ok so this weekend I was able to really put this to the test. We for an event went to an Italian restaurant and just about everything but the plain bread had tomato sauce on or served with it. I ate a ton of it cause it was the only way I was gonna find out. The next day was a slightly lesser version of the same thing that happened and nothing else I consume normally does this. Today the reaction is still simmering down a bit. The initial effects of a lot of tomato sauce were like the other citric acid load a bit more energy cognitively and then I got tanked later and my face has a bit of that burny thing going on too which I would say is histamine but if I for example consume a large amount of soy sauce this doesn't happen whereas with a lot of soy sauce ill feel more burn in my forehead with immediately worse cognitive dysfunction with no up and down. Citric acid loading causes it everywhere on my face and in my eyes especially on the next day and then some rebound BUT there and has a weird roller coaster like effect on my cognitive energy that is consistently up and then a crash that depends on how much was consumed. What I eat around it doesn't seem to factor in as what I did eat around the time I had both reactions was different. In this context I wasn't eating as I normally do either because I went out to some Japanese place the night before and had a bunch of sushi and some fried food as well as a little soy sauce that happened to be on some of the food but not much and I didn't dip any in it.

Not sure what this implies about what is going on with me. I'm gonna dinner fast tonight and tomorrow and then have some rice and veggies with the cooked salmon and see if that helps me bounce back faster (raw salmon doesn't have the same benefit to me, had plenty the night before the tomato sauce disaster). I also ate some rice and veggies last night with no meat and that didn't do anything but make my post tomato'd digestive system feel even worse. Not feeling so hot today but at least I got that part of the experiment largely out of the way.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Searching for "peanut butter hearts removed" revealed that the hearts (germ) are removed before making butter, to avoid bitterness.

That's a great point. I tolerate white flour much better than whole grain flour and I also react very badly to overnight oats or oat porridge and all those contain the seed germ, too, whereas it's removed for making white flour. So that's a similarity to what you have found.

I ate a ton of it

Have you ever experimented with limiting meal size or splitting meals up into two parts? That really seems to help me a lot. It even feels like I can tolerate foods that I thought should be avoided completely (like soy yoghurt) when I split it up into two meals some time apart with not more than 400 calories each. Interestingly a waiting period of one hour seems to suffice.

It doesn't really make sense that this is because of absorption rates as I surmised in an earlier post. It seems to work when meals are just one hour apart, so the food of the first meal portion should still be largely sitting in the stomach after one hour and additional absorption could then take place.

I think it might have something to do with excess nutrients. Maybe with a larger meal, there are excess nutrients that the body can't readily use (e.g., blood sugar spikes) or safely store away so quickly and those can be used by a virus or microbe for reactivation or more efficient multiplication.

 

[Wishful]

all those contain the seed germ, too, whereas it's removed for making white flour.

Sadly, not enough is removed. I seem to react more strongly to white flour than whole wheat flour. The milling process isn't trying to extract something super-valuable or something that drastically reduces the value of the flour, so don't expect 100% removal.

I think my response mechanism is very sensitive. The hormones in seed embryos are in tiny quantities, and white flour should have most of that stuff removed, yet I still react strongly.

I was wondering if plant hormones might trigger yeast or fungi to release large amounts of something, but I don't have problems with carbs, which strongly increase yeast/fungi, so it's probably not that. Those hormones could affect bacteria. Maybe some microbe in me added a gene from somewhere that reacts strongly to those hormones.

I'm guessing that my intolerance of coffee and chocolate isn't the xanthines, but rather that the embryos of those beans are included in the processing. Whatever it is is water-soluble, since I do respond to instant coffee, but don't respond to seed oils.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That's a great point. I tolerate white flour much better than whole grain flour and I also react very badly to overnight oats or oat porridge and all those contain the seed germ, too, whereas it's removed for making white flour. So that's a similarity to what you have found.


Have you ever experimented with limiting meal size or splitting meals up into two parts? That really seems to help me a lot. It even feels like I can tolerate foods that I thought should be avoided completely (like soy yoghurt) when I split it up into two meals some time apart with not more than 400 calories each. Interestingly a waiting period of one hour seems to suffice.

It doesn't really make sense that this is because of absorption rates as I surmised in an earlier post. It seems to work when meals are just one hour apart, so the food of the first meal portion should still be largely sitting in the stomach after one hour and additional absorption could then take place.

I think it might have something to do with excess nutrients. Maybe with a larger meal, there are excess nutrients that the body can't readily use (e.g., blood sugar spikes) or safely store away so quickly and those can be used by a virus or microbe for reactivation or more efficient multiplication.

I know I ate a lot of it because I wanted to see what it would in sxcess like the excess of critic acid in another way did. I'm going to start experimenting with dividing meals up so I have one thing over a longer period of time and see if that changes anything. I actually never thought of it like that either about a larger meal giving more fuel to the pathogens/viruses just because the excess of the immediate load can't be processed by the body fast enough and most does end up getting used but in a very counter productive way.

On peanuts, are the hearts removed in typical containers of nuts unshelled and halved? I also have a horrible reaction to shelled peanuts but the containers of halved unsalted peanuts I grind up for peanut butter are fine. I get severe bloating, brain fog, burning eyes, and lethargy even time. Starts minutes into eating alone or with anything else. I'm not sure when I started reacting this way to them but years back I don't remember this happening with them.

 

[Wishful]

On peanuts, are the hearts removed in typical containers of nuts unshelled and halved?

Not removed in my experience. I'm pretty sure the heart is the pointy bit attached to one end of a peanut half.

Maybe a reaction to something in the shell (it must have chemical protection from microbes and bugs/worms) or in the skin? You could try just handling some shells or skins for a few minutes without eating.

I felt worse yesterday after peanut butter the previous day. I'm wondering whether some brands are less effective at removing hearts. The safe one was an accidental purchase that I didn't notice was a sugar-added version, and I didn't like the addition of sugar.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Not removed in my experience. I'm pretty sure the heart is the pointy bit attached to one end of a peanut half.

Maybe a reaction to something in the shell (it must have chemical protection from microbes and bugs/worms) or in the skin? You could try just handling some shells or skins for a few minutes without eating.

I felt worse yesterday after peanut butter the previous day. I'm wondering whether some brands are less effective at removing hearts. The safe one was an accidental purchase that I didn't notice was a sugar-added version, and I didn't like the addition of sugar.

Must be the shell then and I don't know if its just the specific brand around here I normally only see that Hampton Farms one for the shelled peanuts in all stores. I could try to just handle the shells and see if I get a reaction though I doubt it. I can't remember the last time I used any premade peanut butter and I think any organic, no additives butter I would use would be far too expensive over time for me. I'm kinda stuck where I am with it at the moment.

Another thing I have thought of is that what if I'm reacting to the cutlery I'm eating with? I think soon I'm going to switch to plastic and see if my reactions to anything change. I've reacted to metals before so it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Wishful]

I think soon I'm going to switch to plastic

Then you'll read news about billions of plastic micro/nanoparticles ingested with each spoonful. Maybe take up carving wooden utensils? Ceramic spoons are common in the orient (but then beware of toxic metals in the glaze). Glass spoons might be safe, but glass forks seem hazardous. Don't want to end up in emergency explaining about swallowing a glass fork tine.

Reaction to handling just the shells might be very low probability, but it's an easy test, so that's what I'd do. ME just has too many responses that fit into the "Nah, that couldn't be a possibility" category, but prove to be real. Why am I suddenly intolerant of something in seed embryos? That's not a possibility I'd thought of before, but here it is.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Sadly, not enough is removed. ... The hormones in seed embryos are in tiny quantities, and white flour should have most of that stuff removed, yet I still react strongly.

Maybe you could try homemade bread with 00 type flour. It is said to have a much lower extraction rate than all purpose flour.

On peanuts, are the hearts removed in typical containers of nuts unshelled and halved?

I don't think they are, at least in those I buy, the hearts are clearly still attached to many of the halved peanuts. But maybe you can find a brand where most of the hearts are removed, though I would suspect no product has them all removed reliably, so if we're talking for instance about tiny quantities of hormones that could be a problem, no peanut product may be totally safe for you.

Another thing I have thought of is that what if I'm reacting to the cutlery I'm eating with? I think soon I'm going to switch to plastic and see if my reactions to anything change.

Great idea.

Then you'll read news about billions of plastic micro/nanoparticles ingested with each spoonful.

Spoons and forks can also be made of wood. Probably hard with knives though. One could also try chopsticks or if one is culturally flexible enough, eat with ones hands. Hundreds of millions do that South Asia.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I would now no longer classify my CFS as severe, or I am at least very close to that point. It's now probably moderate CFS only. I am now writing this from an own apartment. I can spend several days unaided, doing all the shopping, cleaning, cooking alone. It woule be hard to handle that for a longer period of time, but a few days is no problem.

I think if I had been in this condition 10 years ago, I would not have to have given up my job. I could have reduced my work time and switched to a less demanding position, but I think I would have been able to continue to work.

Now finding a new job is challenging and I am not really thinking of it right now, mainly because my symptoms are still somewhat unpredictable. It gets worse on some days and very well on others. Also I am still experimenting a lot with dietary choices, which also makes my condition too unpredictable to work a regular job again.

 

[Wishful]

Maybe you could try homemade bread with 00 type flour.

I think wheat embryos are difficult to remove reliably. Peanuts are much easier, since the embryo is exposed and easily broken off. My last response to what I thought might be the PB was probably from the ground cumin I added. Cumin embryos are also hard to remove, and there's no reason to.

Experiment in progress: I'm soaking some chopped-up balsam poplar buds. One of the main hormones in plant embryos is abscisic acid, which in mammals triggers PPAR, which has been discussed a bit on these forums. Dormant buds contain significant amounts of this hormone, so I'll see what happens.

I did note that ovaltine doesn't bother me, despite the barley embryos, but those are germinated, which removes some hormones.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Then you'll read news about billions of plastic micro/nanoparticles ingested with each spoonful. Maybe take up carving wooden utensils? Ceramic spoons are common in the orient (but then beware of toxic metals in the glaze). Glass spoons might be safe, but glass forks seem hazardous. Don't want to end up in emergency explaining about swallowing a glass fork tine.

Reaction to handling just the shells might be very low probability, but it's an easy test, so that's what I'd do. ME just has too many responses that fit into the "Nah, that couldn't be a possibility" category, but prove to be real. Why am I suddenly intolerant of something in seed embryos? That's not a possibility I'd thought of before, but here it is.

Yeah I was concerned about that too and was looking into wooden one's. I definitely wouldn't try glass, I mean wood can splinter but if it's good quality you shouldn't see that and it'd be noticeable by looking at it. I alreaddy use a wooden spoon for stirring and I never had splintering with that. I do like eating with chopsticks but with cooked rice it can be a bit of a pain though for veggies and anything else chopsticks are just fine.

On bread I just had an absolutely horrible experience that gave me a scare but luckily bounced back. Normally I tolerate bread ok, might be somewhat brain foggy and fatigued after it but I can handle it. I wanted to the other night make my own bread for the fun of it. Just bread flour, sugar, salt, yeast, and water. Didn't even add any oil. It was well done, none of that yeast survived. Shortly after eating a couple pieces I felt wretched. The brain fog was on another level intense, I could barely think and my face felt a bit "spicy". I was physically heavy and lethargic like I weighed double my size. Put me out for the rest of the evening so I just went to sleep thinking that'd be the end of it. The next day I felt anxiety through the roof, I was hyperactive but in the worst way possible until later the brain burning got even worse and I couldn't process anything. My brain felt like someone scooped it out of my head for the rest of the evening with that weird over excitation thing going on still but with no energy to work with left to try to explain it. Luckily after sleeping that night I bounced out of the state by mid-day yesterday. I don't know what that was but looks like I'm never making homemade bread ever again., Never reacted to bread like that of any kind in my life.

I would now no longer classify my CFS as severe, or I am at least very close to that point. It's now probably moderate CFS only. I am now writing this from an own apartment. I can spend several days unaided, doing all the shopping, cleaning, cooking alone. It woule be hard to handle that for a longer period of time, but a few days is no problem.

I think if I had been in this condition 10 years ago, I would not have to have given up my job. I could have reduced my work time and switched to a less demanding position, but I think I would have been able to continue to work.

Now finding a new job is challenging and I am not really thinking of it right now, mainly because my symptoms are still somewhat unpredictable. It gets worse on some days and very well on others. Also I am still experimenting a lot with dietary choices, which also makes my condition too unpredictable to work a regular job again.

I am in mild myself thanks to cinnamon and upping my vitamin C on my current stack. I also did a lot of micro-modulation through my diet and rebounding off of cooked salmon a million times for some reason also helped. Though if I stopped everything I know I'd crash right back down. I hit severe once after crashing from saw palmetto while on a disaster of a supplement stack at the time and I don't know what I'd do if ever ended up back there again because I didn't know it was possible to experience a mental and physical state that depleted but still be alive. I can handle basic going abouts in daily life and work if it's not cognitively demanding with enough breaks but need to be careful with the cognitive load of tasks. I don't really have much to do but experiment with diet myself left because the main barrier to me getting better is being able to tolerate more which there is a barrier too environmental/chemical sensitivity wise that got out of control a long time ago and still remains the biggest obstacle. It's weird to be mild yet in an oh so conditional fashion, it's kind of like you;re on an island where if you take a few steps too far you'll fall off and immediately plummet to the depths because instead of a gradual slope down it just sharply drops off vertically. I once somewhat recently after a therapy session at the end of an extremely stressful week got the music intolerance thing back and essentially had to enjoy almost nothing for days after and keep on the diet with the cinnamon and rebound off the cooked salmon again a couple times to get out. No idea what is up with the salmon thing, maybe once some kind of activated something breaks out a compound in it when cooked is able to beat it back very efficiently or a specific immune modulation factor of it directly runs against the PEM mechanism with me.

I think wheat embryos are difficult to remove reliably. Peanuts are much easier, since the embryo is exposed and easily broken off. My last response to what I thought might be the PB was probably from the ground cumin I added. Cumin embryos are also hard to remove, and there's no reason to.

Experiment in progress: I'm soaking some chopped-up balsam poplar buds. One of the main hormones in plant embryos is abscisic acid, which in mammals triggers PPAR, which has been discussed a bit on these forums. Dormant buds contain significant amounts of this hormone, so I'll see what happens.

I did note that ovaltine doesn't bother me, despite the barley embryos, but those are germinated, which removes some hormones.

Good luck tell us how it goes! I have a feeling the cinnamon thing with me is due to a PPAR related mechanism too. Technically it is also a bark I believe. If it does something for you I might give it a spin myself.

 

[Wishful]

I have a feeling the cinnamon thing with me is due to a PPAR related mechanism too.

At one point, I had low tolerance for cinnamon. Further testing with some other herbs&spices showed that the severity of my response correlated with their rating as peroxynitrite scavengers. Not proof that was the mechanism, but it certainly fit. I didn't look at PPAR-activation ratings.

 

[Dysfunkion]

At one point, I had low tolerance for cinnamon. Further testing with some other herbs&spices showed that the severity of my response correlated with their rating as peroxynitrite scavengers. Not proof that was the mechanism, but it certainly fit. I didn't look at PPAR-activation ratings.

what happened when you consumed it with low tolerance? I never really thought about the PPAR connection until super recently when another topic sparked my interest in looking up the possible connection. I came across these 2 studies before.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22166344/ - A procyanidin type A trimer from cinnamon extract attenuates glial cell swelling and the reduction in glutamate uptake following ischemia-like injury in vitro

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28893578/ - Protective effect of cinnamaldehyde against glutamate-induced oxidative stress and apoptosis in PC12 cells

I'm wondering if it has anything to do with glutamate and attenuating large amount of oxidative stress specifically with malonaldehyde and SOD. In doing this I made my mitochondria more stable and prevented part of the massive amount of energetic waste and lipid byproduct production. The PPAR component if it's a interlinked factor may have made it almost some perfect medicine for whatever was going on. I mean I'm still horribly ill and it's just a band-aid but I mean in this context.

When I had that crash to severe I think what happened was a disaster where a bunch of factors I was vulnerable to all came together and destroyed me. An endless amount of waste products being produced, extreme levels of mitochondrial damage further making it worse and producing more, glutamate levels out of control with not enough recycling on top of it as well as what was recycled creating more waste, lions mane was creating horrible gut/immune feedback loops and contributing to the excitory disaster, and then when the final brick saw palmetto was added it was over for my body when even complete androgen receptor dysfunction was added to the picture as if it probably wasn't already bad enough and I got tanked.

 

[Wishful]

what happened when you consumed it with low tolerance?

That was years ago, but I think it was just an increase in my overall ME symptoms. I tried a couple of other herbs&spices, such as rosemary, and when I tried taking the same amount needed for equal perxynitrite scavenging ability, I had the same level of increase in symptoms. I'm not presently noticing a reaction to reasonable amounts of cinnamon.

I thought it odd that scavenging ONOO- would increase symptoms, but as I understood it, ONOO- is what deactivates superoxide dismutase, and so would affect IDO and therefore tryptophan catabolism, and I still think those TRP metabolites might be responsible for some ME symptoms.

So many possibilities in our overly complex bodies.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That was years ago, but I think it was just an increase in my overall ME symptoms. I tried a couple of other herbs&spices, such as rosemary, and when I tried taking the same amount needed for equal perxynitrite scavenging ability, I had the same level of increase in symptoms. I'm not presently noticing a reaction to reasonable amounts of cinnamon.

I thought it odd that scavenging ONOO- would increase symptoms, but as I understood it, ONOO- is what deactivates superoxide dismutase, and so would affect IDO and therefore tryptophan catabolism, and I still think those TRP metabolites might be responsible for some ME symptoms.

So many possibilities in our overly complex bodies.

I definitely benefit from minimizing superoxide, the perxynitrate scavengers in me don't do much. I don't think based on what I experienced so far that my reactions to land and bird meat are due to TRP metabolites because even in terms of what I can eat like fish my reactions will even differ from cooked to raw, and vary by species of fish. Shellfish doesn't seem to do anything. There appears to be some heavy immune/nervous system interlinked element in mine.

I also the other night found out that my weird reaction to storebought bread was in fact due to enriched components. I last night got some fried shrimp and fries from the grocery store that uses enriched flour. I haven't had any enriched anything in a while besides that last time well over a month ago I picked up some store bought bagels. Oils alone don't do this, nor does shrimp or potato. Later I had increased brain burning, brain fog, and worse sleep where I woke up before my earliest alarm for work and couldn't get comfortable. With home made bread this doesn't happen at all but with high gluten bread flour I get an over excitation episode the next day which can lead to a crash. I'm not sure why though if it is specifically the gluten or the gluten load colliding with something else bread typically has. I'm going to need to make some plain pasta with a little salt this weekend and see how I react.

----

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XHKNP93?ref=emc_s_m_5_i_atc&th=1 - Also I was looking for non-metal utensils to eat with and found some wooden one's I am eyeing but I also found these, does anyone have any opinions on why these might be bad? I think the source of the material is corn based on looking them up and I have no reactions to corn.

https://a.co/d/csfu217 - Otherwise on the wood, I found these. These kinds all across the internet seem to be all I can find that aren't the flat, flimsy single use bamboo one's meant to replace people using single use plastic forks. They seem to just be generic brand but I think I'm going to go for them.

On metal I had an absolutely terrible reaction to it last night and I didn't even eat any. So I decided last night I wanted to add all of my coins to numista. I didn't have a large amount and didn't seem to have any reaction to my bullion silvers but I had a few containers of junk silver to take a look at. Since it wasn't going to be long and really short term holding of coins doesn't seem to do anything like just taking my change at the store I didn't have gloves on. I during this felt so sickly my face got all "spicy" feeling, my brain fog was massive, I for some reason got really irritable, my eyes burned, and I couldn't do anything else for the rest of the night. I just passed out in bed and didn't even wake to my alarm. Woke up still feeling off with some brain fog/mental fatigue and my sinus had so much gunk in it that it took all morning here to get the cement out and they're both still kinda inflamed. Looks like I'm never handling junk coins ever again as I'm afraid to even with gloves. Or if I do only very tiny amounts at the same time with gloves and a decent face mask.

 

[Wishful]

Being corn-based doesn't really mean as safe as plain corn. It's a polymer made from some sugar molecules converted to lactic acid. It doesn't state whether there are plasticizers, stabilizers, or other chemicals added. Being biodegradeable might mean that the molecular bonds are weaker, which means more unnatural molecules to enter your body.

They might be relatively safe, but just being corn-based doesn't mean that they are safer than petroleum-based plastics.

The wooden ones don't explicitly say that the "polished finish" isn't some sort of polymer. It's possibly just a buffing process or bead impact process, but you might have to contact the manufacturer to find out whether it's just wood or if something is added.

Given how confusing ME is, it's possible you could be safer with plastic-coated wood or petroleum-based plastic than with an all-natural, organic product. If it's cheap enough for you, try and see.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Being corn-based doesn't really mean as safe as plain corn. It's a polymer made from some sugar molecules converted to lactic acid. It doesn't state whether there are plasticizers, stabilizers, or other chemicals added. Being biodegradeable might mean that the molecular bonds are weaker, which means more unnatural molecules to enter your body.

They might be relatively safe, but just being corn-based doesn't mean that they are safer than petroleum-based plastics.

The wooden ones don't explicitly say that the "polished finish" isn't some sort of polymer. It's possibly just a buffing process or bead impact process, but you might have to contact the manufacturer to find out whether it's just wood or if something is added.

Given how confusing ME is, it's possible you could be safer with plastic-coated wood or petroleum-based plastic than with an all-natural, organic product. If it's cheap enough for you, try and see.

That's the issue, the only products I was able to find was generic stuff online that you can't contact the manufacturer about because they're just "generic chinese company", I can't believe there is no other companies making simple wooden forks/spoons. Knew the demand would be less but didn't know it was clearly near non-existent

I can handle the blow of trying them out, it's not like they're super expensive. It's tiring how confusing this condition is because all of the body's systems are involved and the feedback loops are brutal. I know well enough from my past couple years of experimenting that even if you find yourself in an alright enough place it's so easy to accidentally throw the most fragile little feedback loop off and then you're just food based reaction micro-triggering your way back based on what worked before. I go by trying to set up the conditions for the previous state and then food consumption retriggering the working loop (which doesn't always work completely but is reliable enough if other elements in your life are stable enough to do so).

edit update on the pasta situation - So I realized only after that the box of Barilla I picked up was enriched too and now because of this things just got a lot weirder cause I already ate a bunch of it before I noticed when I was about to toss the box (I didn't even know the enriched the pasta too so I didn't think about that when I picked it up). The interesting thing is that its been half an hour here and though I feel kind of blah with slightly more vague fatigue but the reaction to this does not come with the brain fog bread does of any kind. So there is something specific to bread that even when stripped to the basic ingredients does something far worse than even enriched plain pasta. So there may even be something funky going on with my reaction to enriched products between differing baseline reactions to different plain food that is enriched that can differ even if its the same type of food (like different types of bread with slightly different conditions of consumption or different types of pasta).

update from pasta morning - Ew I don't feel great I'll give you that much. In a way consuming bread the next morning on the bounce back probably due to some gut based neuro-immune chain reaction tends to leave me feeling better mentally than this. No huge degree of fatigue but feeling rather melancholic and generally off. And the way pasta just sits in your digestive system especially if you have lower gut motility just feels so much more gross and makes me more bloated, this reminded me why I never eat the garbage anymore.

Just when I think I had something down it only gets weirder.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Day 7 now unaided in a separate apartment. That doesn't mean I feel good. I do not feel good at all. I still have symptoms all day. But I can now barely live on my own at least for a short time. Given that I barely could climb up the stairs in our house before I started the dietary adjustments, that's a pretty impressive success.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Interesting observation:

*White bread, peanut butter and raw honey --> relatively strong symptoms
*White bread, refrigerated peanut butter, refrigerated raw honey --> no symptoms so far

Probiotic bacteria are known to be abundant in honey:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10336281/

Could the refrigeration slow their activity down until the nutrients they make harmful (to me) compounds from are absorbed or used up by other bacteria?

Could this also work with dates (which I would suspect also contain lots of bacteria)? Could the presence of these bacteria be the reason why porridge with date-berry jam causes symptoms, but not berries alone or porridge alone?

I will explore that further.