Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Dysfunkion]

I haven't made it again yet; maybe today. However, it seems that the squash gave a persistent improvement. It broke the brainfog/lethargy that had been plaguing me since that previous digestive incident. It also seems ot have changed my stool consistency (softer, stickier), so a microbiome change seems a likely explanation.

It wouldn't have been carotene, since carrots didn't have that effect. My guess is a type of fibre not found in other foods, which appeals to some strain of protective bacteria. Another possibility is that the squash contained a microbe strain that survived cooking and successfully colonized my gut. Squash must have its own microbiome of protective strains, protecting it from invaders. Do phages survive boiling better than bacteria? I suppose even dead microbes might carry protein fragments that might train the immune system in the gut, causing changes in microbiome populations.

I tried butternut squash baked in the oven with nothing on it, didn't do anything for me good or bad. I noticed sweet potato will increase the brain burning things I have and would severely do so the worse I am at the time. Butternut squash doesn't do this so carotene in my case wasn't a culprit in anything either and even seems to not be a factor altogether.

I personally am getting persistent benefits from high amounts of cinnamon daily. Whatever that brain burn side effect I get is it's clearly a microbiome mediated reaction and it's not too carbs alone but if the carb load is heavier with it then it will be worse when there is triggers of it present. Adding a large amount of scallions to my food tonight did it, the other week some Chinese take out which was some fried rice and shrimp did it. Plain carbs alone can't trigger it of any kind. Cinnamon is able to stop the reaction in around 10 minutes and the effect gets stronger the more I consume. I'm able to repeat this over and over again in all conditions. The the fiber in cinnamon fermentable? I am also going to try psyllium husk and see if t hat does the same thing.

 

[Wishful]

If you need to keep taking cinnamon to have an effect, that's not a persistent effect, just a reliable or consistent one. One meal of squash had a beneficial effect that persisted. I've had squash since then and noticed no additional effects. One capsule of probiotics fixed a fibre digestion problem, so that was a persistent effect.

Cinnamon had a negative effect on me, as did other strong peroxynitrite scavengers. I'm guessing that most of cinnamon's fibre is indigestible cellulose. Psyllium is non-fermentable. I was able to tolerate that when I couldn't tolerate fermentable fibre.

When testing fibre, I suggest trying pectin, since that ferments predominantly to acetate, and so might have a different effect (or degree of effect) than many other sources of fibre. I didn't find anything that produced unusually high ratios of butyrate or propionate.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That's what I meant, persistent as long as I'm using it but if I stop thing will clearly just revert rather quickly. I wonder if that's part of why it helps, I may do better peroxynitrite scavengers if thats part of the mix. That's interesting on the squash thing though, I'd say it's one of my most non-reactive foods like plain rice. I'll look up pectin around the net and pool peoples experiences with it and maybe give it a try myself to see what my reaction to that is. I'm going to try the psyllium tomorrow, I can't imagine I'd have any bad reaction to it though as it seems to just be fiber void of much else in the way of plant compounds.

Oh and this may be also important to note with this shift from cinnamon I am no longer having flushing in the face upon over exertion cognitively either, the next day after consuming the trigger (which was too much scallions) my face felt a bit more burny today but flushing didn't resume or the exertion problem but cognitive exertion was harder on me in general from the same pool of things that make me worse regarding it. The no flush shift may part of a key indicator on what is going on as it also was the only thing that disappeared besides the general brain burn and sedation effect that marked an upswing into a more persistent (so as long as I'm consuming the cinnamon) excitory edged state.

Edit 12/05 9:30 AM - I tried a very tiny amount of the psyllium husk and what happened at first was strange, it totaled less than half a teaspoon. I felt a little more energy but I got an initial slight wave of dizziness. I also since it has to do with my case need to mention it almost instantly upon hitting the stomach induced partial erectile dysfunction and reduced excitory peaks with exciting things in general. As the morning went on this tapered off but I had more gas which normally despite my bloating I dont get much of. I also had more cognitive fog as when I got to my job I was mentally disorganized and couldn't organize the complex set of tasks as I had to do as easily. Things in my head were just more blank.

I'm gonna see later if cinnamon rebounds me back even faster and hypothesize on what is going on from there. Not having anything for dinner tonight as I ate too much in the past 4 days though.

 

[Wishful]

Psyllium itself shouldn't cause gas, since bacteria can't ferment it (unless you have weird mutants). It could alter your gut environment in a way that allows more fermentation of other foods.

Pectin seems like an easy thing to test. It's in the canning section of the store (might have to ask staff where it's hiding). I assume jam likely has lots of pectin, so if you eat lots of jam, testing pectin alone might not be necessary.

For testing peroxynitrite scavengers, there's a list somewhere on the net rating the strength of herbs&spices. Rosemary was fairly high. If several of those alternatives have the same effect on you, it's likely a peroxynitrite scavenging effect.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That could possibly be it, any food I had today had no effect on what was going on and my reaction to the food wasn't altered by the psyllium. Laster I had some cramping a bit of bloating, luckily the reaction has tapered off more and I'm feel alright at the moment. That was one extreme reaction to such a small amount of something that is largely just fiber. I couldn't imagine anything in the compounds of the husk doing anything since it's husk and they'd be minimal.

What they do contain that make up it's gel like consistency is a polysaccharide mix of arabinose and xylose, something I noticed after is that the texture of it is nearly identical to Lions Mane which I have crashed from early on after getting a flavor of PFS from Saw Palmetto which began with digestive issues and got horrifically worse. Arabinose may have been a main culprit. They are present in many fruits and vegetables but nothing comes close to the texture of this with the only similar thing being Lions Mane. The reaction behaved largely the same but with less intensity as I'd expect since lions mane has so much more going on with it. I also got a similar feeling anxiety spike from the experience. It could be that something in that polysaccharide mix is also used by the same bacteria to do the same thing and even small amounts can set it off. I retained skin sensation, reactivity to sensory stimuli otherwise unlike the lions mane crash with no burning reaction either. These polysaccharides are in many other things too though but what is in the mix in psyllium husk is probably unique given it's texture like I said nothing else has.

I react to Rosemary feeling a bit more sedated and if I use too much it can really knock me out temporarily, all in all it tanks my energy in some ways and doesn't give anything back so the scavenging thing may not be it.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Another possibility is that the squash contained a microbe strain that survived cooking and successfully colonized my gut. ... Do phages survive boiling better than bacteria?

No live microbe survives cooking at 100 degrees celsius (except maybe extremophile species like those near hot wells in the deep sea), but some bacterial and fungal spores indeed can survive and then grow when the conditions are right. That's why boltulinum toxin producing bacteria can grow in homemade canned foods even if they were heated to 100 degrees. That's also why industrial canned foods are heated twice, pressure cooked or contain additional preservatives.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Some very interesting new observations:

I tried homemade bread again, but this time without any oil or sugar (fructose) added. Just white all purpose flour, salt, yeast and low-calcium water. After an overnight cold ferment, the bread still caused strong symptoms. When I do a quick rise with yeast at higher temperature and no longer cold ferment, there are no or much less symptoms. So it's not the yeast. It must be a bacteria present in the flour already or transferred to it during dough making. It also means that oil is not necessarily needed.

Interestingly, I observed that these symptoms wear off rather quickly (about after 24-36 hours) as opposed to symptoms from other foods and food combinations that last for 3-4 days.

Both observations are consistent with the hypothesis that one of the main causes (or at least triggers) of my symptoms is a compound produced by ubiquitous bacteria found on and in foods (probably lactic acid bacteria present in the flour). The compound is probably produced by fermentation at room temperature or lower temperatures. It does not need strong fermentation activity at higher temperatures.

That the symptoms after homemade white bread (I ate it with some fried mushrooms) don't last long is also consistent: It's the pre-formed compound produced during the cold ferment that causes the symptoms. Since there is no fiber or carb substrate in white bread that could sustain fermentation in the colon after consumption, the symptoms wear off once the pre-formed compound is excreted or metabolized. Thus the symptoms wear off more quickly than with foods where there is longer fermentation in the colon.

The microbiome hypothesis just got a lot stronger.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I will try non-fermented bread made with baking powder. Theoretically, that should cause no symptoms at all. I will test that.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I personally am getting persistent benefits from high amounts of cinnamon daily. ... Cinnamon is able to stop the reaction in around 10 minutes and the effect gets stronger the more I consume.

That probably rules out non-soluble oxalate as a cause for you. Cinnamon is super high in non-soluble oxalate.

 

[Wonkmonk]

If I were a biochemist, I am quite confident I could figure this thing out. Just make the bread dough, test all the compounds it contains before and after fermentation and then feed me those compounds that were present only (or in much higher quantity) after the cold ferment. Then see if they cause symptoms. I'm very confident I could figure out what the culprit is that way.

I also think I discovered a new (though probably rare) medical condition here. As we know little about it so far, I would at this point name it fermentation product induced fatigue syndrome for now.

If any biochemist or doctor who would be able and willing to do these tests is reading this, please get in touch. I'll volunteer as a test subject. We might in fact discover a new rare disease and help a number of people whose lives have been wrecked completely. I would be willing to travel to do any tests required.

 

[Wishful]

No live microbe survives cooking at 100 degrees celsius

Yes, but dead microbes or even fragments could still trigger reactions, possibly even triggering a chain reaction that has a drastic effect on the microbiome and gut lining. Whether it was a live microbe, bits of a dead one, or fibre or something else, it did something I'm grateful for.

I consider it more support for the "try new things, even if they don't have any theoretical reason for helping" philosophy, since I certainly didn't expect squash soup to have an effect.

 

[Dysfunkion]

That probably rules out non-soluble oxalate as a cause for you. Cinnamon is super high in non-soluble oxalate.

Yeah and the fact that the step back from psyllium husk was just as instant means a lot for my situation to. There's something immediately in and/or past my stomach that can trigger dramatic instant if strong enough of a reaction and permanent until otherwise altered shifts in how I'm feeling. I'm suspecting an immune based trigger controlling something in the voltage gated channels and the alpha adrenergic system acting as a gate for them. I can't imagine from the tiny amount that anything else even involving anything heavily serontonin/dopamine/opioid receptor or hormones can be involved. It ccould have altered something at a histamine receptor but I also doubt that and still suspect an immune response changed the way some voltage channels were functioning and like I said some possible adrenergic cause as consequence. I was still able to feel reward and still had drive so I don't think anything at the nicotinic receptors got messed up and based on my experiences with nicotine besides when I was worse getting a reward circuit to fire at a baseline not much happened and the rebound really didn't do me any good.

I'm going back to the drawing board here, probably won't have too much to say here for a while as I don't have many idea off the top of my head on what to try next but I'll be brainstorming.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I consider it more support for the "try new things, even if they don't have any theoretical reason for helping" philosophy, since I certainly didn't expect squash soup to have an effect.

I think that makes sense because the causes and potential triggers are still unknown. I haven't found any theoretical reason that would be even remotely consistent with all the possible symptom triggers I have identified.

 

[Wonkmonk]

The fermented food hypothesis is a promising avenue. I tried a quick-fermented bread with yeast that only rose about 2 hours. Much less or no symptoms with homemade falafel, cucumber, tomato, garlic-yoghurt (milk). I also let the chickpeas for the falafel soak in the fridge for only 12 hours instead of 24 hours. I think any fermentation must be kept as low as possible.

The fermentation product seems to be produced by bacteria, not bakers yeast, since the amount of yeast fermentation doesn't seem to correlate much with symptom severity. It also seems to be a product that's produced at low temperatures and(?) warmer temperatures, so refrigeration won't stop it. It is obviously produced during the cold-fermentation of bread dough in the fridge. Freezing seems to stop the process as frozen products don't seem to get worse over time.

I will try to keep any possible fermentation of bacteria as short as possible for all foods. That means cook fresh from dried or frozen foods and make own bread that rises very quickly and freeze immediately after cooling down.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Also, apples are out again. Maybe it's because they ripen further and bacteria could have some activity or it's something else. But apples - sadly - are out.

Strange, because bananas seem to be better and there definitely is bacterial activity in ripe bananas. So maybe there is something else going on in apples.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I find it hard to explain why apples are out. They are low protein, low fat, low oxalate and when fresh shouldn't contain bacterial fermentation products in any significant amounts.

There are probably more things I have to avoid. In apples, I suspect arsenic, which is also high in rice, which is the other mystery. Rice is also low protein, low fat, low oxalate, not fermentable when dry and also is low in fiber, but seems to cause symptoms.

Or maybe the fact that rice grows in water provides a suitable environment for a low degree of fermentation before harvest and drying and there are still some residual compounds left in the rice when cooked.

I am also wondering if the compounds I am searching for are water soluble or fat soluble or both. Knowing that would further help to avoid them or find preparation methods that reduce their content in meals.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I suspect that olive oil and avocado oil may not be problematic because of the monounsaturated fatty acid content, but because they are produced from "wet" fruit (botanically), olives and avocados. That opens up the possibility of bacterial fermentation during the storage and production process. For seed oils, the bacteria have a much harder time to produce any metabolites that may be harmful.

That also suggests that the compound or compounds or at least some of them may be fat soluble or partially fat soluble. Maybe that's the explanation for why adding fat to meals is bad.

 

[Wishful]

I am also wondering if the compounds I am searching for are water soluble or fat soluble or both.

While not a definitive test, AFAIK sublingual absorption is only for water soluble molecules.

 

[Wonkmonk]

While not a definitive test, AFAIK sublingual absorption is only for water soluble molecules.

I don't think they are sublingually absorbed or not to a large degree because symptoms don't start right away. They start after 1-2 hours for the pre-formed compounds (or so I believe) and 8-12 hours for endogenously produced compounds. I don't think the sublingual route, if it exists, plays a significant role.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Here is what I (think I) know about the micobe/s and compound/s (it may be one or more than one):
*The microbes are ubiquitous and part of the normal gut flora.
*They occur in foods like flour, soy, oats, apples etc., probably also in many other places (skin, surfaces, dirt).
*It's not baker's yeast
*The microbes produce the compounds at both low (4-8 °C) and room temperature
*The microbes thrive on carbohydrates, esp. fermentable fiber and fructose
*The microbes don't like lactose a lot (milk yoghurt and cheese are much less problematic than soy yoghurt)
*Production of the compounds needs or is enhanced by protein and possibly fat
*Production of the compounds takes time, a quick yeast ferment for bread is likely relatively safe
*The compounds are produced both outside the body and after consumption of foods
*Production of the compounds continues during the entire digestive process until the food leaves the body
*Over longer timeframes, production even occurs in well-preserved foods (e.g., olives, nut butters etc.)
*At least some compounds are likely fat-soluble or fat increases absorption.
*Some absorption also occurs in the (almost) complete absence of fat, e.g., fruit only meals
*The microbes cultivate a community in the gut by repeat meals containing fermentable fiber and fructose

I am really very positive that this is a new medical condition. I am not just 1 in 8 billion. Others have this, too.

I'm absolutely convinced that if a biochemist studied this in detail, the microbes and compounds that cause the problem could be identified.