Strong anxiety after gentle methylation approach

[longfellow]

Hi All,
I recently started a methylation approach with a local practitioner. She started me on Seeking Health Optimal Multivitamin Minus One. It's methyl free with Hydroxo/Adeno and Folinic Acid and a host of other active B's, etc. From what I understood the methyl vitamins are usually responsible for intense startups, hypermethylation, etc. First day taking it I felt great like a switch had been flipped. More energy and focus than I have had in years. End of day two I started to feel very revved up and discontinued use on day 3. I have had this strong over revved and anxious feeling now continuing into day 4. I have been off the supplement for 2 days and it does not seem to be fading. I have a very elementary understanding of the process and was hoping someone could shed some light as to why this supplement may have reacted the way it did.

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @longfellow there isn't nearly enough information here to even begin to sort out your reaction in an intelligent way.

My first suggestion is to do A LOT more research on this website and in general to figure out exactly what your problems are. Have you had your genetic profile done? Have you had an OAT test? Have you looked into your oxalate status? Have you been diagnosed CFS/ME? Do you know what your mineral status is wrt electrolytes? Do you have deficiencies or toxicities in copper, zinc, iodine, molybdenum, iron, calcium, magnesium.

My WAG (wild ass guess) is that you are experiencing either start-up or detox symptoms or probably both. Both are good signs that what you're taking is working. It's impossible to fire up neurology, cellular metabolism and detoxification pathways for the first time in perhaps decades and not experience some unpleasantness in the form of toxin elimination and mental symptoms such as anxiety.

Mercury, copper, cadmium and many other toxins can cause anxiety and hyperthyroid like symptoms when they are eliminated. These can come out of the liver, brain, thyroid, kidneys, lungs, etc.

If you have damage in the amygdala from decades of malnutrition, then you'll have anxiety any time your body starts to repair this tissue. Neurological healing is always going to cause mood changes and symptoms.

If your mitochondria have been malfunctioning for decades, increases in energy may feel like anxiety or restlessness or hypermethylation but I'll state something here I stated in another thread:

I don't believe there is such a thing as overmethylation or hypermethylation. Methylation is one of the most important biochemical reactions in the body. It's necessary for life! So I find it hard to believe you can have too much methylation.

What I believe you can have is an imbalance in the methylation cycle which causes problems with neurotransmitters and hormones that cause the symptoms of "overmethylation".

So I'm not sure why you would be taking methyl free vitamins and without seeing your genetic profile, a complete list of your supplements and diet as well as your primary general complaints and symptoms I can't offer much more than that.

It could be that you don't need these supplements or need different ones but I assume your practitioner has some reason for prescribing them.

I have major issues around folate metabolism due to MTHFR mutations and for me, folic acid is absolutely toxic and I can't handle even trace amounts without getting panic attacks.

I hope this will help point you in the right direction.

 

[longfellow]

Thank you for the reply. I don't have a CFS diagnosis. OCD, Anxiety, Depression, Fatigue, and other issues wavering through the past 10 years. Obsessions that were gone are back strongly since taking the multivitamin. Hair Mineral test years ago pointed to Mercury, have not done chelation. Pack a day smoker for years so cadmium definitely a possibility. No OAT test or oxalates. I attached a gene report I had done. Whole blood histamine was 10 though I know many on here don't prescribe to the over/under methylation idea. High hemoglobin/hematocrit/MPV. High tryglycerides. Low HDL. High LDL. Diet has been high carb and protein with no restrictions for the past few years. Starting to eat clean but have not eliminated anything. This is really all the information I have at this moment.

 

[drmullin30]

@longfellow you have similar issues as me. The main manifestation of my illness was OCD, panic depression etc. along with fatigue.

I don't agree with your practitioner on folic acid. Given your SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) I would avoid folic acid. I don't know if you need to take methyl-folate though as you don't have a lot of issues on your MTHFR gene but you have a couple SNPs which means folic acid will cause you problems especially around serotonin synthesis so if I were you I would stop taking that.

An important point to make here is that there are several molecules that constitute forms of B9 or folate. There is folic acid which is synthetic and not helpful for people like us. There's folinic acid which some people have more success with but I can't take it. I use L-5-methylfolate which is the methylated natural form but my MTHFR gene is in bad shape and yours isn't that bad.

I would also look to start reducing hydroxocobalamin because of your MTR and MTRR SNPs I would be taking methyl b12 methylcobalamin but this will cause you some suffering as you heal and detox as it is a methyl donor and will definitely increase methylation and neurotransmitter synthesis. So go low and slow with methylcobalamin.

I used hydroxocobalamin with lots of success in the beginning as I dealt with start up and detox symptoms. It will give you some b12 without adding methyl groups but eventually you'll max out your healing with hydroxocobalamin as it will put the brakes on methylation so I don't use that one at all anymore. I only use methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin now.

The problem here is that you have numerous SNPS on your COMT gene like me which means that you will be sensitive to methyl donors and WILL have anxiety as you heal etc. The COMT gene is the main source of your anxiety because you won't break down dopamine, adrenaline or noradrenaline fast enough and these will build up in your brain causing anxiety.

The key to getting this enzyme and gene working is to make sure your SAMe to SAH ratio stays high as this will stimulate flow through the enzyme but supplementing SAMe never worked for me. SAMe in supplement form always caused me to have panic attacks so I accomplish this by making sure the rest of my methylation is running optimally.

Also, because of your COMT you may have estrogen dominance. I used a supplement from AOR called Estro Adapt but the active ingredients are calcium-d-glucarate and DIM (diindolylmethane). These are potent liver detox agents and will help lower your estrogen and detox pseudo estrogens.

In addition, b vitamins work in a system and you'll need to supplement them all so they'll work. In particular, b2 is very important for b12 to work as is b6. Vitamin b6 is also indicated by your CBS SNP. Inositol and nicotinic acid (niacin) are also B-vitamins that can help with anxiety but niacin can hamper your methylation

Your Gene report isn't that helpful to be honest the way it's written. If you have your raw data, I would look into https://www.nutrahacker.com/ and https://livewello.com/. They provide much better reports.

One gene you'll want to look at is the GAD1 gene as it can be a real driver of anxiety due to glutamate overload. Glutamate is the most excitatory neurotransmitter and will cause OCD and panic as well.

I have had to attack my diet with vigor. Here's my advice for you, stop gluten and dairy immediately they are direct contributors to anxiety. My anxiety was cut by more than half when I stopped eating those foods. Gluten and Casein can cause your body to build up glutamate and adrenaline. I use only organic coconut and olive oil for cooking and I make sure I get lots of high quality salt. I use Redmond Real salt, this helps to make sure we're getting all of our trace mineral elements as these are essential to proper enzymatic function.

Word of warning, if you are gluten sensitive, and you eliminate from your diet, you'll become even more sensitive to it. I'm at the point now where even trace level cross contamination will cause me problems but overall going gluten free was a revelation.

I would also look into your oxalate status as this was a major driver of anxiety and depression for me.

I eat a grain free, sugar free, alcohol free, dairy free, nut free, low oxalate, low salicylate strict ketogenic paleo diet. I eat mainly high quality meat (no processed meat), low oxalate vegetables and some fruit but I try to stay ketogenic as much as possible as this really lowers my anxiety and improves my fatigue. This will help you as you have problems around detoxification.

You'll also want to make sure you get sufficient omega 3's (fish oil) to help with neurological healing and your depression.

I would also look into your thyroid and iodine supplementation. Iodine can help with anxiety especially if it's related to hypothyroidism.

Also molybdenum is something I've had a lot of success with. I would check my sulfite status to see if this is necessary. With your history of smoking, and mercury toxicity it's essential to make sure you get your glutathione synthesis running. Mercury will displace molybdenum in key enzyme sites causing health issues and anxiety. Methylcobalamin will also stir up mercury which could also contribute to your anxiety.

For mercury, I used Cutler Chelation with alpha-lipoic acid. I strongly recommend you look into this as it was extremely effective in my case. The more rounds of alpha-lipoic acid chelation I did, the more methylcobalamin I could take. This requires some care and patience as it can cause serious health issues due to mercury redistribution so do your research and be careful.

If you have sulfite overload this may prevent glutathione synthesis and you might need molybdenum to get this cycle moving. You have a SNP on your CBS gene but it's not an upregulation so you might not have a sulfite issue but I would check. You can get urine test strips to test your sulfite load. Sulfites can drive anxiety as well.

Another word of warning, cadmium detox is pure hell. I was also a smoker and a user of cannabis so I know what I'm talking about. Cadmium toxicity is also closely related to aluminum and copper toxicity so I would look at your hair test to get some insight here and see if you have high aluminum, cadmium and copper along with the mercury problem. Detoxing copper, cadmium and aluminum is brutal for anxiety but absolutely necessary to get back to health.

Magnesium malate is great for aluminum toxicity and molybdenum is great for copper toxicity.

Molybdenum and iodine along with b2 are essential for proper b12 function.

I have also used the following supplements with success to help with anxiety: lithium orotate 5mg (this stuff has been a godsend and is excellent for OCD and anxiety), NAC (may need glycine to work, will increase glutathione and lower glutamate, may cause problems around b12 metabolism) kava kava (very effective for glutamate based anxiety, it takes a few weeks to start working due to reverse tolerance), tryptophan and 5-htp along withy b6 for serotonin synthesis, Lemon balm (Melissa) this one worked well.

I know that the SLC gene SNP can be very impactful but I don't have that one so you'll have to research that one on your own but you should consider zinc supplementation as this will also give you some indication as to your copper and cadmium status.

Hope this helps.

Dan

 

[longfellow]

@longfellow you have similar issues as me. The main manifestation of my illness was OCD, panic depression etc. along with fatigue.

I don't agree with your practitioner on folic acid. Given your SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) I would avoid folic acid. I don't know if you need to take methyl-folate though as you don't have a lot of issues on your MTHFR gene but you have a couple SNPs which means folic acid will cause you problems especially around serotonin synthesis so if I were you I would stop taking that.

An important point to make here is that there are several molecules that constitute forms of B9 or folate. There is folic acid which is synthetic and not helpful for people like us. There's folinic acid which some people have more success with but I can't take it. I use L-5-methylfolate which is the methylated natural form but my MTHFR gene is in bad shape and yours isn't that bad.

I would also look to start reducing hydroxocobalamin because of your MTR and MTRR SNPs I would be taking methyl b12 methylcobalamin but this will cause you some suffering as you heal and detox as it is a methyl donor and will definitely increase methylation and neurotransmitter synthesis. So go low and slow with methylcobalamin.

I used hydroxocobalamin with lots of success in the beginning as I dealt with start up and detox symptoms. It will give you some b12 without adding methyl groups but eventually you'll max out your healing with hydroxocobalamin as it will put the brakes on methylation so I don't use that one at all anymore. I only use methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin now.

The problem here is that you have numerous SNPS on your COMT gene like me which means that you will be sensitive to methyl donors and WILL have anxiety as you heal etc. The COMT gene is the main source of your anxiety because you won't break down dopamine, adrenaline or noradrenaline fast enough and these will build up in your brain causing anxiety.

The key to getting this enzyme and gene working is to make sure your SAMe to SAH ratio stays high as this will stimulate flow through the enzyme but supplementing SAMe never worked for me. SAMe in supplement form always caused me to have panic attacks so I accomplish this by making sure the rest of my methylation is running optimally.

Also, because of your COMT you may have estrogen dominance. I used a supplement from AOR called Estro Adapt but the active ingredients are calcium-d-glucarate and DIM (diindolylmethane). These are potent liver detox agents and will help lower your estrogen and detox pseudo estrogens.

In addition, b vitamins work in a system and you'll need to supplement them all so they'll work. In particular, b2 is very important for b12 to work as is b6. Vitamin b6 is also indicated by your CBS SNP. Inositol and nicotinic acid (niacin) are also B-vitamins that can help with anxiety but niacin can hamper your methylation

Your Gene report isn't that helpful to be honest the way it's written. If you have your raw data, I would look into https://www.nutrahacker.com/ and https://livewello.com/. They provide much better reports.

One gene you'll want to look at is the GAD1 gene as it can be a real driver of anxiety due to glutamate overload. Glutamate is the most excitatory neurotransmitter and will cause OCD and panic as well.

I have had to attack my diet with vigor. Here's my advice for you, stop gluten and dairy immediately they are direct contributors to anxiety. My anxiety was cut by more than half when I stopped eating those foods. Gluten and Casein can cause your body to build up glutamate and adrenaline. I use only organic coconut and olive oil for cooking and I make sure I get lots of high quality salt. I use Redmond Real salt, this helps to make sure we're getting all of our trace mineral elements as these are essential to proper enzymatic function.

Word of warning, if you are gluten sensitive, and you eliminate from your diet, you'll become even more sensitive to it. I'm at the point now where even trace level cross contamination will cause me problems but overall going gluten free was a revelation.

I would also look into your oxalate status as this was a major driver of anxiety and depression for me.

I eat a grain free, sugar free, alcohol free, dairy free, nut free, low oxalate, low salicylate strict ketogenic paleo diet. I eat mainly high quality meat (no processed meat), low oxalate vegetables and some fruit but I try to stay ketogenic as much as possible as this really lowers my anxiety and improves my fatigue. This will help you as you have problems around detoxification.

You'll also want to make sure you get sufficient omega 3's (fish oil) to help with neurological healing and your depression.

I would also look into your thyroid and iodine supplementation. Iodine can help with anxiety especially if it's related to hypothyroidism.

Also molybdenum is something I've had a lot of success with. I would check my sulfite status to see if this is necessary. With your history of smoking, you'll want to make sure you get your glutathione synthesis running. If you have sulfite overload this may prevent glutathione synthesis and you might need molybdenum. You have a SNP on your CBS gene but it's not an upregulation so you might not have a sulfite issue but I would check. Sulfites can drive anxiety as well.

Another word of warning, cadmium detox is pure hell. I was also a smoker and a user of cannabis so I know what I'm talking about. Cadmium toxicity is also closely related to aluminum and copper toxicity so I would look into getting a hair mineral test to get some insight here. Detoxing copper, cadmium and aluminum is brutal for anxiety but absolutely necessary to get back to health.

Magnesium malate is great for aluminum toxicity and molybdenum is great for copper toxicity.

Molybdenum and iodine along with b2 are essential for proper b12 function.

I have also used the following supplements with success to help with anxiety: lithium orotate 5mg (this stuff has been a godsend and is excellent for OCD and anxiety), kava kava (very effective for glutamate based anxiety, it takes a few weeks to start working due to reverse tolerance), tryptophan and 5-htp along withy b6 for serotonin synthesis, Lemon balm (Melissa) this one worked well.

I know that the SLC gene SNP can be very impactful but I don't have that one so you'll have to research that one on your own but you should consider zinc supplementation as this will also give you some indication as to your copper and cadmium status.

Hope this helps.

Dan

Thank you again for the advice. I have attached my variance report from livewello. The OCD is feeding on the uncertainty of this feeling not going away. I have been compulsively searching the internet even though this probably only heightens my anxiety. Niacin seems to calm me for a bit but its hard to tell if it is placebo. I really appreciate your knowledge in this matter though.

 

[Learner1]

Hi All,
I recently started a methylation approach with a local practitioner. She started me on Seeking Health Optimal Multivitamin Minus One. It's methyl free with Hydroxo/Adeno and Folinic Acid and a host of other active B's, etc. From what I understood the methyl vitamins are usually responsible for intense startups, hypermethylation, etc. First day taking it I felt great like a switch had been flipped. More energy and focus than I have had in years. End of day two I started to feel very revved up and discontinued use on day 3. I have had this strong over revved and anxious feeling now continuing into day 4. I have been off the supplement for 2 days and it does not seem to be fading. I have a very elementary understanding of the process and was hoping someone could shed some light as to why this supplement may have reacted the way it did.

This sounds like a discussion to have with whoever was prescribing the vitamins. Your genes say you might need more methylfolate and methyl B12, so no idea why your practitioner is avoiding these.

I can't tell from these genes, but you might need more BH4 if you add folate and B12. Kuvan or Pteridin have it.

 

[drmullin30]

I have attached my variance report from livewello

OK upon looking at that, I wouldn't change much of my advice except that your COMT gene is in even worse shape than mine so you'll need to be very careful with methyl donors and with methyl b12 so stick with hydroxocobalamin but try to slowly introduce small amounts of methyl b12 and definitely continue with the adenosylcobalamin as this is likely what's caused your start up (good thing).

Folate shouldn't be a major issue for you but I would get my homocysteine checked as this will give you a good indication of your methylation status. If it's high, I would consider very small doses of methyl folate.

Given your need for choline (MTHFD1, PEMT and BMHT)I would suggest starting on some phosphatidylcholine. This will help with liver detoxification as well.

I think you should definitely give molybdenum a try as well as get your sulfites tested given your CBS SNPs.

You do have GAD1 SNPs so you'll want to look at ways to increase GABA and decrease glutamate. NAC and Kava kava are great for this and definitely STOP EATING GLUTEN. Gluten will cause your body to produce antibodies against the GAD enzyme so you won't break down glutamate and will have too little GABA. This will all increase anxiety.

Also, I've attached a book by Amy Yasko that helped me understand my genetics much better. Some members don't agree with her approach but it was beneficial for me. I'm not as educated on some of your other SNPs so this might help you.

This website is also helpful: https://heartfixer.com/IndexCHC.htm there's a section on methyl cycle nutrigenomics which has a lot of information on SNPs here: https://heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

The OCD is feeding on the uncertainty of this feeling not going away.

I deeply empathize with you on this and I have spent basically twenty years searching and researching for solutions and this website has been my salvation so I recommend you spend a lot of time looking through the posts here for clues to your condition.

My suspicion is that what you have done is started up methylation in some part of the cycle which, because of your COMT will dramatically increase your dopamine synthesis and by corollary epinephrine (adrenaline). In your situation, because of the COMT problem, dopamine for you degrades to adrenaline instead of the other safer byproducts. Dopamine plays a role in heavy metal detoxification as well so you have likely started either a copper or mercury elimination or both. Molybdenum will help with this.

I think the main drivers of your anxiety are gluten, mercury (and other toxicities) and probably oxalates. All of these will be made worse when methylation starts up.

Do you have acne? That was the one thing I couldn't get rid of until I went low oxalate and the reduction in OCD symptoms from going low oxalate has been spectacular. Oxalate crystals can accumulate anywhere in the body including the amygdala and cause anxiety. Check with Livewellow for the following SNPS: AGXT, GRHPR, HOGA1 and LDHA. If you have significant SNPS on any of these genes you likely have an oxalate overload problem.

I'm now on what's called the advanced methylation protocol or Freddd protocol now which I learned about here and I've never been happier or healthier. Also, oxalates were the last trick. I've spent a little over a year now going through oxalate detox but every week I feel better and have less health issues.

This journey is tough but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. This stuff works for me, I made a lot of mistakes along the way but I would be dead now if I had listened to doctors and if I hadn't learned this stuff.

 

[Learner1]

OK upon looking at that, I wouldn't change much of my advice except that your COMT gene is in even worse shape than mine so you'll need to be very careful with methyl donors and with methyl b12 so stick with hydroxocobalamin but try to slowly introduce small amounts of methyl b12 and definitely continue with the adenosylcobalamin as this is likely what's caused your start up (good thing).

Folate shouldn't be a major issue for you but I would get my homocysteine checked as this will give you a good indication of your methylation status. If it's high, I would consider very small doses of methyl folate.

Given your need for choline (MTHFD1, PEMT and BMHT)I would suggest starting on some phosphatidylcholine. This will help with liver detoxification as well.

I think you should definitely give molybdenum a try as well as get your sulfites tested given your CBS SNPs.

You do have GAD1 SNPs so you'll want to look at ways to increase GABA and decrease glutamate. NAC and Kava kava are great for this and definitely STOP EATING GLUTEN. Gluten will cause your body to produce antibodies against the GAD enzyme so you won't break down glutamate and will have too little GABA. This will all increase anxiety.

Also, I've attached a book by Amy Yasko that helped me understand my genetics much better. Some members don't agree with her approach but it was beneficial for me. I'm not as educated on some of your other SNPs so this might help you.

This website is also helpful: https://heartfixer.com/IndexCHC.htm there's a section on methyl cycle nutrigenomics which has a lot of information on SNPs here: https://heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm



I deeply empathize with you on this and I have spent basically twenty years searching and researching for solutions and this website has been my salvation so I recommend you spend a lot of time looking through the posts here for clues to your condition.

My suspicion is that what you have done is started up methylation in some part of the cycle which, because of your COMT will dramatically increase your dopamine synthesis and by corollary epinephrine (adrenaline). In your situation, because of the COMT problem, dopamine for you degrades to adrenaline instead of the other safer byproducts. Dopamine plays a role in heavy metal detoxification as well so you have likely started either a copper or mercury elimination or both. Molybdenum will help with this.

I think the main drivers of your anxiety are gluten, mercury (and other toxicities) and probably oxalates. All of these will be made worse when methylation starts up.

Do you have acne? That was the one thing I couldn't get rid of until I went low oxalate and the reduction in OCD symptoms from going low oxalate has been spectacular. Oxalate crystals can accumulate anywhere in the body including the amygdala and cause anxiety. Check with Livewellow for the following SNPS: AGXT, GRHPR, HOGA1 and LDHA. If you have significant SNPS on any of these genes you likely have an oxalate overload problem.

I'm now on what's called the advanced methylation protocol or Freddd protocol now which I learned about here and I've never been happier or healthier. Also, oxalates were the last trick. I've spent a little over a year now going through oxalate detox but every week I feel better and have less health issues.

This journey is tough but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. This stuff works for me, I made a lot of mistakes along the way but I would be dead now if I had listened to doctors and if I hadn't learned this stuff.

While this stuff is all very interesting, our genes are expressed more or less by environmental factors. I've had the same genes all my life but my need for nutrients had varied dramatically over the past 15 years depending on other things going on in my health and environment. I have COMT variations but have never really experienced what my SNPs "say' will happen.

The best thing to do is get comprehensive nutrient testing like a Genova Diagnostics Metabolomix+ test and see what's going on and respond to it. Saves a lot of time, money, and agony caused by guessing and applying the wrong information to your situation.

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @Learner1 my experience is different from yours I guess. I did plenty of testing in the beginning and it never showed anything significant. No deep deficiencies, no significant toxicities no oxalates in the urine, no major protein wasting, no problems with my thyroid, no copper toxicity, no sulfite toxicity etc. and yet, I was still having panic attacks, chronic fatigue, depression etc. I spent thousands of dollars on tests and integrated natural health doctors and consultants and nutrition evaluation tests. Not one doctor or test helped alleviate my symptoms. Actually that's not entirely true, I have to give credit to one who advised me to go gluten free, that was good advice.

It wasn't until I applied nutrigenomics to my condition that I experienced any level of healing and recovery.

Every single time I addressed a significant SNP in my genome I got better. Thyroid panels came back negative but I have SNPs correlated with hypothyroidism so I started iodine protocols, result, instant improvement in health. No oxalate in the urine but I have SNPs so I went low oxalate and started a kidney stone regiment, result, instant improvement in health.

I have major problems with my folate gene, it's almost entirely red. Not one test I ever did suggested I needed high dose folate. I take 30-45 mg of methyl folate per day now and most of my mental health issues are in complete remission.

How do you test for a b-vitamin deficiency when blood levels fluctuate hourly? Same with electrolytes and amino acids. How do you find out you have toxicity if the toxins are all sequestered away in tissues and don't leave? My b12 levels were ALWAYS in range but I need significant does of b12 every day to stay healthy. This is directly attributable to my genetics.

Now I'm on a genetically tailored advanced methylation protocol and I have never been healthier or happier. I agree environment is a major factor but how your body responds to those epigenetic factors is directly attributable to your individual genetics. This is why you can have two kids in identical environments where one is perfectly healthy and the other develops autism.

I'm not saying don't do the testing I'm just saying don't put too much stock in the results as they are very transitory and often inconclusive. Your genes are with you for life.

Obviously our nutritional needs change as you age and heal. This is due to the interaction between environment (epigenetic) and genetics. My genome now serves as a guide as to what to do when things change.

For instance, early on I had to do many things to deal with my CBS upregulation but now, I don't have any symptoms of sulfur issues and I can eat as much sulfur as I want without symptoms and I can explain that with nutrigenomics and it's because my overall methylation cycle is working so my upregulation has disappeared. This is also likely due to getting rid of mercury but no test I ever did showed I had a mercury toxicity. I didn't need any test to show me this, I just started needing less molybdenum and was able to tolerate high sulfur foods again.

So all this to say that I think both approaches have their place and can help.

 

[Learner1]

Hi @Learner1 my experience is different from yours I guess. I did plenty of testing in the beginning and it never showed anything significant. No deep deficiencies, no significant toxicities no oxalates in the urine, no major protein wasting, no problems with my thyroid, no copper toxicity, no sulfite toxicity etc. and yet, I was still having panic attacks, chronic fatigue, depression etc. I spent thousands of dollars on tests and integrated natural health doctors and consultants and nutrition evaluation tests. Not one doctor or test helped alleviate my symptoms. Actually that's not entirely true, I have to give credit to one who advised me to go gluten free, that was good advice.

It wasn't until I applied nutrigenomics to my condition that I experienced any level of healing and recovery.

Every single time I addressed a significant SNP in my genome I got better. Thyroid panels came back negative but I have SNPs correlated with hypothyroidism so I started iodine protocols, result, instant improvement in health. No oxalate in the urine but I have SNPs so I went low oxalate and started a kidney stone regiment, result, instant improvement in health.

I have major problems with my folate gene, it's almost entirely red. Not one test I ever did suggested I needed high dose folate. I take 30-45 mg of methyl folate per day now and most of my mental health issues are in complete remission.

How do you test for a b-vitamin deficiency when blood levels fluctuate hourly? Same with electrolytes and amino acids. How do you find out you have toxicity if the toxins are all sequestered away in tissues and don't leave? My b12 levels were ALWAYS in range but I need significant does of b12 every day to stay healthy. This is directly attributable to my genetics.

Now I'm on a genetically tailored advanced methylation protocol and I have never been healthier or happier. I agree environment is a major factor but how your body responds to those epigenetic factors is directly attributable to your individual genetics. This is why you can have two kids in identical environments where one is perfectly healthy and the other develops autism.

I'm not saying don't do the testing I'm just saying don't put too much stock in the results as they are very transitory and often inconclusive. Your genes are with you for life.

Obviously our nutritional needs change as you age and heal. This is due to the interaction between environment (epigenetic) and genetics. My genome now serves as a guide as to what to do when things change.

For instance, early on I had to do many things to deal with my CBS upregulation but now, I don't have any symptoms of sulfur issues and I can eat as much sulfur as I want without symptoms and I can explain that with nutrigenomics and it's because my overall methylation cycle is working so my upregulation has disappeared. This is also likely due to getting rid of mercury but no test I ever did showed I had a mercury toxicity. I didn't need any test to show me this, I just started needing less molybdenum and was able to tolerate high sulfur foods again.

So all this to say that I think both approaches have their place and can help.

Ones genes can definitely have an impact on nutrient needs. But infections, stress, cancer peroxynitrite production, membrane health,nutrient and cofactor status all have different roles to play and can dramatically affect nutrient needs.

I started with a keen focus on nutrigenomics, reading Yasko and Heartfixer 10 years ago, but over time have found it's unfortunately not that simple.

There's no substitute for comprehensive metabolomic testing which reflects the part 3 months or so of ones biochemical status.

 

[drmullin30]

Thanks @Learner1 yeah I have been thinking it's time to try some testing again so I think I will take your advice.

Also a bit of an update, I need to be very careful with lithium, I have been having high anxiety I believe from lithium for the past couple of days and I have had to stop b12 supplementation as well as lowered my doses of folate and other b-vitamins (actually I'm hoping this is permanent as I could sure do with spending less on supplements). I have stopped the lithium and I am taking magnesium citrate and malate to help detox the excess lithium. Lithium can slow the COMT gene I have learned and seems to be causing some very bad anxiety and potassium deficiency for me.

As long as I continue to take magnesium and potassium citrate I seem to be able to keep the symptoms at bay for now.

 

[GreenMachineX]

While this stuff is all very interesting, our genes are expressed more or less by environmental factors. I've had the same genes all my life but my need for nutrients had varied dramatically over the past 15 years depending on other things going on in my health and environment. I have COMT variations but have never really experienced what my SNPs "say' will happen.

The best thing to do is get comprehensive nutrient testing like a Genova Diagnostics Metabolomix+ test and see what's going on and respond to it. Saves a lot of time, money, and agony caused by guessing and applying the wrong information to your situation.

Is that Metabolomix+ better than the NutraEval or SpectraCell test? How does one do this tests without a doctor ordering it?

 

[Learner1]

Metabolomix+ is the most comprehensive, if you do the add ons. It does minerals and oxalates in addition to what the NutrEval does. Metabolomix+ is urine plus a card that you brick your finger and your blood onto. NutrEval can be urine only or urine and blood draw. Both allow you to get a good idea of what pathways are doing and losing into one another and where things get bottlenecked.

I've run SpectraCell side by side with NutrEval, which I've corroborated with other tests, and Spectracell didn't match. It also has a rather arbitrary selection of what they test. It purportedly tests how well WBCs take up nutrients. Mine happily did, but they needed a lot more of certain nutrients - the other tests said I was really deficient in some things while Spectracell said my cells were happy. Not good.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Metabolomix+ is the most comprehensive, if you do the add ons. It does minerals and oxalates in addition to what the NutrEval does. Metabolomix+ is urine plus a card that you brick your finger and your blood onto. NutrEval can be urine only or urine and blood draw. Both allow you to get a good idea of what pathways are doing and losing into one another and where things get bottlenecked.

I've run SpectraCell side by side with NutrEval, which I've corroborated with other tests, and Spectracell didn't match. It also has a rather arbitrary selection of what they test. It purportedly tests how well WBCs take up nutrients. Mine happily did, but they needed a lot more of certain nutrients - the other tests said I was really deficient in some things while Spectracell said my cells were happy. Not good.

Thanks. How can one order these without a doctor's order? Is there a lab online?

 

[bigmit]

Thanks @Learner1 yeah I have been thinking it's time to try some testing again so I think I will take your advice.

Also a bit of an update, I need to be very careful with lithium, I have been having high anxiety I believe from lithium for the past couple of days and I have had to stop b12 supplementation as well as lowered my doses of folate and other b-vitamins (actually I'm hoping this is permanent as I could sure do with spending less on supplements). I have stopped the lithium and I am taking magnesium citrate and malate to help detox the excess lithium. Lithium can slow the COMT gene I have learned and seems to be causing some very bad anxiety and potassium deficiency for me.

As long as I continue to take magnesium and potassium citrate I seem to be able to keep the symptoms at bay for now.

How many supplements are you taking? From reading your earlier posts, everything seems so complicated and there seems to be a need for continuous adjustments. I also suffer from anxiety/OCD and slightly afraid of going down the rabbit hole.

I had strong insomnia after MethylFolate 400 mcg, and has gotten me a little spooked.

 

[Tannukchhina]

How many supplements are you taking? From reading your earlier posts, everything seems so complicated and there seems to be a need for continuous adjustments. I also suffer from anxiety/OCD and slightly afraid of going down the rabbit hole.

I had strong insomnia after MethylFolate 400 mcg, and has gotten me a little spooked.

Has your insomnia resolved??? Did you take niacin or how long your insomnia last?

 

[drmullin30]

Thanks @Learner1 yeah I have been thinking it's time to try some testing again so I think I will take your advice.

Also a bit of an update, I need to be very careful with lithium, I have been having high anxiety I believe from lithium for the past couple of days and I have had to stop b12 supplementation as well as lowered my doses of folate and other b-vitamins (actually I'm hoping this is permanent as I could sure do with spending less on supplements). I have stopped the lithium and I am taking magnesium citrate and malate to help detox the excess lithium. Lithium can slow the COMT gene I have learned and seems to be causing some very bad anxiety and potassium deficiency for me.

As long as I continue to take magnesium and potassium citrate I seem to be able to keep the symptoms at bay for now.

I need to update this thread because the issues I discuss above turned out to be B6 toxicity. Once I cut out B6 supplementation all of these issues disappeared. I also no longer need supper high doses of b12 and folate. I still take those but in much lower doses and this is also likely due to the reduction of b6 as I think the high dose B6 was interfering/deregulating folate and b12. It was not the Lithium that was causing this. I would advise anyone using high dose B6 to be very careful as it can cause small fiber neuropathy leading to autonomic and sensory nerve damage even in the P5P form.

 

[Bluebluesky]

I would advise anyone using high dose B6 to be very careful as it can cause small fiber neuropathy leading to autonomic and sensory nerve damage even in the P5P form.

How much vitamin b6 did you take? I'm curious as to how much is too much?

 

[drmullin30]

How much vitamin b6 did you take? I'm curious as to how much is too much?

I was taking between 100-200 mg per day of P5P only. Too much is highly individual There are members of the Facebook group that became toxic simply from a high B6 diet. No supplements at all.

 

[Bluebluesky]

Too much is highly individual

Would you happen to know why this is so individual? It is kind of puzzling. I have been taking as much as 1000 mg a day. The need normalized when I addede b3.

At the other end I thought that I was toxic om very low doses in the beginning, but it was a question of cofactors, the b6 depleting magnesium and making magnesium deficiency even worse when I took it. So the symptoms I mistook for toxicity were heart palpitations and other electrolyte stuff rather than neurological.

I should definately say that I'm here to learn, so feel free to add to my interpretation of my symptoms with b6 I you feel like it. There is so much new knowledge for me on this forum.