Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

[caledonia]

One reason glutamate rises with methylfolate is by conversion of histidine to a form of glutamate before it can become histamine. This is a classic sign of over methylation (really low histamine, overly high glutamate). There are of course other reasons glutamate can rise to unacceptable levels (i.e. low levels of glutamic acid decarboxylase, low levels of glutamine synthetase, dietary intake, Cystathione beta mutation, etc.). In my case I have Stiff Person Syndrome, which means my body attacks my GAD enzymes in my CNS and I have to control it with corticosteroids, hence I always have a baseline of neurological inflammation I can never exterminate entirely. To reduce glutamate levels also expunge all gluten from your diet. That is more important imo than eliminating glutamine provided it is at low levels for intestinal and muscle health (your body makes 100s of grams of glutamine on its own anyways otherwise you would waste away in no time).

Glutamate and glutamine are two different things. Supplementing with glutamine for your gut health doesn't make you wired.

 

[adreno]

Glutamate and glutamine are two different things. Supplementing with glutamine for your gut health doesn't make you wired.

Right --kinda. Glutamine converts very easily into glutamate (or gaba) so it could be a problem for some.

 

[AVA]

Here is an update re: Wired/tired- fast pulse-insomnia-dizziness-unable to handle hardly any environmental stimulus......all due to high dosage of Fola Pro......raising glutamate levels too high.

The "Gaba FLO" sublingual spray I tried last night and continued with today has really made my existence easier and closer to normal. I did 3 sprays under my tongue this morning and repeated 3 sprays late this evening. By this evening I felt more sturdy in my constitution because my pulse was not racing. My appetite improved too. Calmer feeling, alert, but not overwhelmed by stimulus like conversation from others that is high energy... Still very early, but good response to this supplement and will see how the next few days pan out.

 

[AVA]

Here is an additional update: Today is my 2nd day using the supplement I posted about earlier. All was well this morning, I slept well....skipped breakfast but had lunch. Before I had this trouble with "high Glutamate".....I had been taking "BETAINE HYDROCHLORIC ACID with all of my protein meals. I had been taking them for years. However I realized that after I had my lunch I felt awful....my head was stoned like, pressure in my chest, just weirder than weird.....then I recalled that the identical symptoms occurred yesterday after eating as well.

I vaguely remembered seeing the word Betaine written in some of the research I was doing on line regarding the topic of HIGH GLUTAMATE.....and BINGO...."BETAIN" which is derived from beets is a NO NO as are peas, MSG, aspartame, hydrolyzed protein, gelatine capsules,...all excitotoxins....that raise glutamate levels in the brain. I am unclear what the difference is between TMG and Betaine Hydrochloric acid?

WOW, I am just gaining a wee bit of insight that most of you have been aware of for some time.

 

[adreno]

Betaine is a methyl donor. So, like methylfolate, it can contribute to overstimulation. It is helpful for many though, but doses might need to be kept low. Somewhere between 250-500mg TMG is probably a good bet. I don't know how much betaine is in the HCL version.

 

[Sushi]

Betaine is a methyl donor. So, like methylfolate, it can contribute to overstimulation. It is helpful for many though, but doses might need to be kept low. Somewhere between 250-500mg TMG is probably a good bet. I don't know how much betaine is in the HCL version.

You can buy liquid HCL without betaine (dilute of course!) from Nutricology--sample site: http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=36046

Sushi

 

[AVA]

Thank you for the tip about HCL from Nutricology. I replaced Betaine Hydro Chloric acid yesterday evening with just Bromelain....seemed fine....but then I went downhill....and this morning and now horrendous headache/ migraine. If I can handle my digestion with the Nutricology liquid form...that would be nice as i do need the digestive support. The heart rate has really calmed down.....but Lord is this a wicked headache. I do have important question....I keep reading that Methylcobalamin will help quench or handle excess glutamate.....confused by that as it is a Methyl Donor? How is it that it may be helpful to take Methyl B12? This appears to contradict my understanding....High Glutamate/ Over Methylation....induced by Too much Fola Pro......stay clear from Methyl donors till glutamate has lowered sufficiently....then Slowly add Methyl donor, low dose, wait for period of time, a week or two before adding additional Methyl donor.

 

[Lotus97]

Betaine is a methyl donor. So, like methylfolate, it can contribute to overstimulation. It is helpful for many though, but doses might need to be kept low. Somewhere between 250-500mg TMG is probably a good bet. I don't know how much betaine is in the HCL version.

This is good to know because I'm trying to pin down what's causing my overstimulation. Can effects stack over a couple of days? What I mean is that you don't experience side effects initially, but after a couple of days they have a cumulative effect and things get worse. It seems like even though I've been cutting back on a lot of things related to methylation (and otherwise) I still am very sensitive.

You can buy liquid HCL without betaine (dilute of course!) from Nutricology--sample site: http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=36046

Sushi

Betaine HCL has the same effect as TMG? I know TMG is also referred to as Betaine (Anhydrous), but I didn't think that they would work the same. I take almost 2000 mg of Betaine HCL a day (in divided doses of course).

 

[adreno]

I do have important question....I keep reading that Methylcobalamin will help quench or handle excess glutamate.....confused by that as it is a Methyl Donor? How is it that it may be helpful to take Methyl B12? This appears to contradict my understanding....High Glutamate/ Over Methylation....induced by Too much Fola Pro......stay clear from Methyl donors till glutamate has lowered sufficiently....then Slowly add Methyl donor, low dose, wait for period of time, a week or two before adding additional Methyl donor.

Mb12 should protect against excitoxicity, according to studies. Those were done with cells and (healthy) rats though. Maybe if our glutamate/gaba balance is off we are more sensitive to a rise in glutamates. Or maybe it does protect. I don't think it is damaging to take mb12. Overstimulation can also be to other factors than glutamate. With methyl donors you will likely see an increase in other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, all of which are stimulating.

 

[adreno]

This is good to know because I'm trying to pin down what's causing my overstimulation. Can effects stack over a couple of days? What I mean is that you don't experience side effects initially, but after a couple of days they have a cumulative effect and things get worse. It seems like even though I've been cutting back on a lot of things related to methylation (and otherwise) I still am very sensitive.

Yes, methyl donors build up over 3-4 days, so wait at least that period of time before you increase your dose.

 

[AVA]

Mb12 should protect against excitoxicity, according to studies. Those were done with cells and (healthy) rats though. Maybe if our glutamate/gaba balance is off we are more sensitive to a rise in glutamates. Or maybe it does protect. I don't think it is damaging to take mb12. Overstimulation can also be to other factors than glutamate. With methyl donors you will likely see an increase in other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, all of which are stimulating.

Well, now that I am with this wicked headache all day for 13 hours straight. I suspect that ACTIVE B6 is the cause, because it is a methyl donor. No fast pulse, but this is a just dreadful. I am just miserable with this pain. I am stopping the sub-lingual supplement that helped me because: Ingredients are:
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxal 5 phosphate) 1mg (50%DV) This 5P5 may be the trouble.
L-Theanine 15mg
L-Taurine 2mg
Other Ingredients: purified water, glycerin, potassium sorbate, natural flavoring, Lo Han® extract, vegetable gum.

I dont know what to think at this point.

 

[adreno]

Well, now that I am with this wicked headache all day for 13 hours straight. I suspect that ACTIVE B6 is the cause, because it is a methyl donor. No fast pulse, but this is a just dreadful. I am just miserable with this pain. I am stopping the sub-lingual supplement that helped me because: Ingredients are:
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxal 5 phosphate) 1mg (50%DV) This 5P5 may be the trouble.
L-Theanine 15mg
L-Taurine 2mg
Other Ingredients: purified water, glycerin, potassium sorbate, natural flavoring, Lo Han® extract, vegetable gum.

I dont know what to think at this point.

P5P is not a methyl donor. It increases activity in the transsulfaration pathway, though. 1mg however is nothing. I take 70mg per day presently.

 

[Lotus97]

AVA, things that might help calm you down are potassium, magnesium, zinc, taurine, glycine, NAC, B3, B6, L-theanine. B3 gobbles up excess methyl groups. B6 helps glutamate convert to gaba.

Does it make a difference whether it's B6 or P5P?

 

[adreno]

Does it make a difference whether it's B6 or P5P?

B6 has to been converted to P5P first, so it my opinion taking P5P directly would be more effective.

 

[Patrick*]

Is the basic protocol listed by Rich on the first page of this thread still up-to-date? I thought I remembered Rich later agreeing with Fredd that folic acid and folinic acid should not be used? I'm sorry, I don't have the ability right now to read through all 32 pages of this tread to find the answer.

 

[Lotus97]

Is the basic protocol listed by Rich on the first page of this thread still up-to-date? I thought I remembered Rich later agreeing with Fredd that folic acid and folinic acid should not be used? I'm sorry, I don't have the ability right now to read through all 32 pages of this tread to find the answer.

Here is a link to his most recent methylation protocol. Rich does still recommend folinic acid although I assume he acknowledges from Fredd's findings that some people cannot tolerate folinic acid.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ation-protocol-august-25-2012-revision.19050/

 

[AVA]

I am so lost about about what to do....I am currently taking Theanine, NAC, Taurine, to help mitigate what I believe is a over methylation/high glutamate reaction from the excessive dosage of Fola Pro. Almost 4 weeks since stopped Fola Pro.
I thought I was making a little bit of progress this week since ....but awoke this morning w/ swollen eye lids, that look droopy.....Expression looks like I am sad. Light headed, feel strange again. I then questioned whether I might have exposed myself to glutamate in food. I had a tuna sandwich w/mayo that had natural flavors aka: MSG. So I assume that that may be an issue.
I am stunned that this is ongoing.....and have no idea what to do. This situation w/eye lids is a alarming and the ongoing buzz like sensation in my head. Not feeling or looking like myself at all. Has anyone had such an occurrence with their eyelids, dry skin, swollen, somewhat pink/red, drooping, woozy, tearful, tired, feel stoned kinda? I dont even know if these supplements are helping or what. Theanine seems to be....but this seems to be only a bandaid......I am in the dark. Do I need, to get a test ? What kind?

 

[adreno]

I am so lost about about what to do....I am currently taking Theanine, NAC, Taurine, to help mitigate what I believe is a over methylation/high glutamate reaction from the excessive dosage of Fola Pro. Almost 4 weeks since stopped Fola Pro.
I thought I was making a little bit of progress this week since ....but awoke this morning w/ swollen eye lids, that look droopy.....Expression looks like I am sad. Light headed, feel strange again. I then questioned whether I might have exposed myself to glutamate in food. I had a tuna sandwich w/mayo that had natural flavors aka: MSG. So I assume that that may be an issue.
I am stunned that this is ongoing.....and have no idea what to do. This situation w/eye lids is a alarming and the ongoing buzz like sensation in my head. Not feeling or looking like myself at all. Has anyone had such an occurrence with their eyelids, dry skin, swollen, somewhat pink/red, drooping, woozy, tearful, tired, feel stoned kinda? I dont even know if these supplements are helping or what. Theanine seems to be....but this seems to be only a bandaid......I am in the dark. Do I need, to get a test ? What kind?

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree. After 4 weeks, surely there is nothing left of the FolaPro in your system. It usually takes me 3-4 days to calm down if I overdo methylation. If you still after all this time have problems, I do not believe you having taken FolaPro has anything to do with it. In short, I would look for another cause of your problems. Something else in going on.

Theanine has a nasty rebound effect for me (it inhibits COMT) and actually make my anxiety worse after a while. I do not tolerate high doses of taurine also.

 

[Lotus97]

I am so lost about about what to do....I am currently taking Theanine, NAC, Taurine, to help mitigate what I believe is a over methylation/high glutamate reaction from the excessive dosage of Fola Pro. Almost 4 weeks since stopped Fola Pro.
I thought I was making a little bit of progress this week since ....but awoke this morning w/ swollen eye lids, that look droopy.....Expression looks like I am sad. Light headed, feel strange again. I then questioned whether I might have exposed myself to glutamate in food. I had a tuna sandwich w/mayo that had natural flavors aka: MSG. So I assume that that may be an issue.
I am stunned that this is ongoing.....and have no idea what to do. This situation w/eye lids is a alarming and the ongoing buzz like sensation in my head. Not feeling or looking like myself at all. Has anyone had such an occurrence with their eyelids, dry skin, swollen, somewhat pink/red, drooping, woozy, tearful, tired, feel stoned kinda? I dont even know if these supplements are helping or what. Theanine seems to be....but this seems to be only a bandaid......I am in the dark. Do I need, to get a test ? What kind?

I'm not sure what's causing problems for you, but whenever I'm experiencing side effects of any sort (not just methylation) I usually eliminate any supplements and/or food that I suspect is causing problems. Even if eliminating something does not alleviate the symptoms I still wait a few days or even a few weeks before I reintroduce them. And when I do reintroduce them I try to do it one at a time.

 

[AVA]

Thank you for your responses. I agree I should back off these supplements and see how things go. I stopped the Taurine last night....as after taking it I felt worse for a short interval of approx 1/2 hour. Then wondered if the Gelatin/Glutamate capsule may be behind it.
I am sleeping ok....and the racing pulse has mostly subsided, the buzz in my head & eyelid dry texture and inflammation are what have me concerned.......auto-immune response? I think a blood test, & ANA auto immune test may be worth getting. Feel quite anxious about it though. Uhg......Then I wondered if this excessive dosage of Fola Pro shifted some metal/aluminum around and brought on this bizzarre symptom picture?