Ph, acidity, achiness, fatigue, baking soda, high BP - is lemon juice the answer? More energy since starting lemon juice

Mary

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Could it just be you are fighting a virus that is going around?
I don't think so. I haven't felt sick per se, just this awful achiness which is similar to but different than what happens with PEM. It feels the same as when I first took a bunch of vitamin C to mop up excess glutamate - all over body aches and subsequent fatigue that disappeared when I took baking soda. Only this time the baking soda, while it alkalinized my body, did nothing for these aches and fatigue. But with the lemon juice - it took 2 hours after drinking it, but the achiness just dissolved and my energy picked up, just like that. I don't think that would happen with a virus. I think it might have something to do with the Krebs cycle, more than acidity, as @Judee suggested above.

About the baking soda test for stomach acid - I know all about that. I've suggested it to many people with digestive issues. Generally when I have taken baking soda, I do burp within a minute or 2. Actually I am prone to low stomach acid and have been taking betaine HCL for many years with meals that have protein and fat. I learned this the hard way when my liver was in bad shape in 2003-2004. My digestion was so bad, I couldn't eat until after 12:00 noon, I felt tired, sick, awful - and my chiropractor who does muscle testing found my liver was toxic. I did a liver detox under his supervision - it took a month and was unpleasant - but afterwards my digestion was so much improved and I also found I had to start taking betaine HCL with meals. I also had been prone to gallbladder issues, and those resolved after the detox and also taking the betaine HCL. FWIW, it seems the main problem with my liver then was toxins from heavy exposure to chemical solvents at a job I had when I was 19. Also, I started taking milk thistle then and have continued ever since.

My digestion is good now. I know what bad digestion both from liver and gallbladder problems feels like! And I don't get those issues any more. A glass of wine used to leave me feeling sick for an entire day, and 2 glasses would make me sick for 3 days. That doesn't happen any more. I can drink in moderation with no issues at all. I've wondered if some of the people who have alcohol intolerance actually have livers that are overloaded with toxins.

Lemon juice could be helping with digestion, bile production and a source of potassium and vit C.
Absolutely! I totally agree it's very good for the body! Thanks for your suggestions :nerd:
 

Mary

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I use it with very fizzy sparkling water like san Pellegrino...etc...you get a faster and more.efficient delivery than standard tap water.
Great tip! I wonder if adding it to baking soda as @PatJ suggested would have the same effect? I have mixed lemon juice and baking soda together before and it does make a nice fizzy drink, though I've wondered if the baking soda would neutralize the acid in the lemon juice and detract from its benefits . . .
 

Mary

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Other posters mention liver toxicity or liver stagnation which is/was a problem for me. If the liver is stagnated then toxins have a problem getting released from the body. Incidentally, magnesium participates in the generation of glutathione which is a key chemical that the liver uses to detoxify, glutathione is also used by the immune system.
I used to have problems with my liver. I described above how my liver was quite toxic in 2003-2004 and the liver detox I had to do, which was extremely helpful. But, even after that, I had problems with detoxing for many years. Anything that was considered "cleansing" (e.g., apple cider vinegar, cayenne and lots of various supplements) would make me detox, rather unpleasantly. There were so many things I reacted to, I can't remember all of them. Often I would get very spacey, like I was drugged, and I think this was mercury in my brain. Then in late 2014, I started taking glycine at night for sleep. And the first night I took it, it worked very well, and actually hit me like a truck. I had a very strong detox reaction, I got lost going to my sister's house (!) and had to call her to have her talk me down/in to her house.

But muscle testing indicated the glycine was good for me, albeit in very small doses. Around the same time I also started taking glutamine and inositol, and both of those caused a detox reaction, though much milder than the glycine. So I kept taking these 3 items, but at very small doses that I could tolerate. I slowly increased the doses over several months and after about 6 months I realized I was no longer detoxing at the drop of a hat. And it had been a problem for years. Around the same time I also had the Quicksilver Mercury Tritest done and it indicated that my body burden of mercury was very low, and also indicated that my ability to excrete toxins was very good! And I'm sure if I had done this test 6 months before the results would have been quite different. I had tried Andy Cutler's protocol with no results.

This article mentions glycine, glutamine and inositol (and choline) as being necessary for phase II liver detoxification and I just stumbled across all 3 at the same time, completely by accident!
https://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.php
The nutrients glycine, glutamine, choline and inositol are also required for efficient phase two detoxification.
I've been taking lecithin, a good source of choline, for several years - it noticeably helped my memory when I first started taking.

I do take a lot of magnesium, at night, for sleep, and I've had the RBC testing done which indicates normal intracellular levels of magnesium, though it's been several years since I've had the test. But the magnesium at night really helps with sleep.
 

Mary

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I realize that it sounds paradoxical that lemon juice, which is acidic, would alkalinize the urine, but it does, because the citrate is metabolized by the citric acid cycle, leaving ions that are base-formers.
Nice to have the explanation! I knew it was alkalinizing but didn't know how that worked.
Another method is to combine lemon juice with a little baking soda to get the benefits of both.
I've done this before and it does make a nice fizzy drink. I like it. But I wondered if the baking soda would neutralize the acid in the lemon juice and thus detract from its benefits - do you know anything about this?
 

Mary

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if you have a virus then maybe it's temporarily overwhelmed with trying to get rid of something in your blood?
I've experienced it when my liver and body is overwhelmed with toxins or when I'm herxing or reacting badly to something. And I'm not getting any of those symptoms, nothing digestive related. And like I said I''m very familiar with symptoms related to my digestive system - I had a ton of them over the years, but only rarely now. Actually when I am overloaded with something, lemon juice is very good for helping my liver and kidneys. But again, none of those symptoms here.
Kidney problems can lead to pH imbalances.
My blood work has always been fine - it's never indicated any kidney problems, though my right kidney tends to be my achilles heel - it used to hurt a lot of the time. I'd get it checked and nothing would show up. And actually I found that lemon juice was very helpful for my kidney as well, so for that reason alone, I should make lemon juice a regular part of my daily routine. Maybe my kidney is affecting my Ph though standard testing doesn't indicate any problems. But standard testing also shows that most people with ME/CFS are healthy as horses too! :bang-head:
I take Nutribiotic Sodium Ascorbate powder. It's pH neutral and has the lowest amount of sodium among the sodium ascorbate products I've compared it with. The bottle claims that the sodium used isn't combined with chloride so it won't increase BP.
I tried a sodium ascorbate product back when I was trying to take high dose vitamin C, and it didn't help with sleep like regular vitamin C did. Also, it caused a strange reaction - it made me feel very flat, no emotion. And that feeling (or rather non-feeling) went away when I stopped the sodium ascorbate. I thought I had found the solution to the excess acidity caused by vitamin C, but I couldn't tolerate it unfortunately.
 

Mary

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Dang! I had written more to @PatJ but it disappeared! Will try to reconstruct:
I realize that it sounds paradoxical that lemon juice, which is acidic, would alkalinize the urine, but it does, because the citrate is metabolized by the citric acid cycle, leaving ions that are base-formers.
Thanks Pat - I've known that lemon juice is supposed to be alkalinizing but it's very nice to have the explanation of how it is!
Another method is to combine lemon juice with a little baking soda to get the benefits of both.
I've done this before, and it makes a nice fizzy drink - I like it. But I've wondered if the baking soda is neutralizing the acid in the lemon juice, and thus perhaps detracting from its benefits? I'd be happy to be wrong here - do you know anything about this possibility?
 

Wishful

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The bottle claims that the sodium used isn't combined with chloride so it won't increase BP.
It's the sodium that causes the increase; it doesn't matter what the sodium was bonded to previously. You might consider forwarding the label info to the appropriate agency that deals with false advertising for health products.

I have mixed lemon juice and baking soda together before and it does make a nice fizzy drink, though I've wondered if the baking soda would neutralize the acid in the lemon juice and detract from its benefits . . .
I'm not a professional chemist, but as far as I know, yes, the acid would neutralize the base, so the drink would be neutral pH. Since out bodies automatically adjust the pH in our blood and other areas, I'm doubtful about significant changes in body pH from consuming an acid or base. There are other possible explanations for noticeable changes from consuming acids or bases. Maybe it changes the microbiome in the mouth or other parts of the digestive system enough to have an effect on symptoms. That's why I suggested experimenting with other acids, to see if it was the acidity or something else.
 

sb4

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It's the sodium that causes the increase; it doesn't matter what the sodium was bonded to previously. You might consider forwarding the label info to the appropriate agency that deals with false advertising for health products.
I remember reading on another forum that the chloride was more responsible for the rise in BP than the sodium. I just did a quick google and found this.
 

percyval577

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(I havn´t read the posts above properly.)
This morning I decided to try lemon juice, supposed to be alkalinizing, instead of baking soda, hoping it would help lower my BP. I added 3 tablespoons of lemon juice to a glass of water and drank it all before breakfast (using a straw to protect the enamel on my teeth). Much to my surprise within about an hour the achiness had dissipated, and my energy had picked up! I felt better than I have in at least 3 weeks. The lemon juice apparently did something that the baking soda couldn’t. Although when I checked my Ph, it had only gone up a little (unlike with the baking soda), but I felt much better. And my BP went down to about 125/75 which it has not been for quite awhile!

So - any ideas as to what might be going on?
Citrate acid is also a known chelator for metals, according to wikipedia. So, this could also be what´s going on, I think, and:


I recently made a rather similar experience to your´s. It may be a bit complicate:

I thought to take in metals from chocolate, because - so my theory - under better (improving) circumstances - which I can achieve in my case by a lower manganese diet and intake of some vitB´s - the metals would consolidate the improvement. They would settle where they are needed for actions consolidating the improvent. Actions that are going to be healthier would get strengthened. For this theory it is even not necessary to know which tasks the metals fulfill, it´s only needed to know that there are these metals in the body.

So indeed, this works fine. And I got a bit high on spirits ... I suddenly made a mistake in my lower manganese diet ... So again (and still) having brain fog, I thought the metals in chocolate would help, but of course no! Now they helped to establish the new bad circumstances from my mistake. Most noticable:
After the mistake, I got tooth ache. Luckily I remembered the citrate acid chelation, and the miracle took place: after having drunken lemon juice from half a lemon, the tooth aches vanished. (Next day by the dentist it turned out that a tooth already has died, having caused a jaw infection as well.)


So, taken together, metal management could be very easily a part of any improvement. Chelating metals could
mean a loosening of bad configurations that lasts from the past.
Consequently I would also claim, for unexplained or unjustified elevated pain (e.g. my tooth was already dead) citrate acid could easily be the medical of first try.

I would think citrate is quite natural, and might be used by the body for exactly this purpose.
In respect of our illness it would be required as soon as the causes for bad circumstances were absent and the body wanted to change its behaviour. If these causes are the known or unknown triggers I don´t know and remain sceptical enough. But it´s really worth a careful try, I would think.

But importantly, also the intake of metals could be required as they may be needed for actions. It could well be a reconfiguration which is here on the cards.
So far I personally have cared only for metals which are found in chocolate. It might be not enough (and therefore it could be a mistake to carry on with a fast chelation because I would chelate some metals which I wouldn´t take in soon enough again.)

(I have already told it here: a week ago or so in the thread benzodiazapines and almost two months ago in my thread thalamus & basalganglia.)
 
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Mary

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Unfortunately, the achiness is back today, despite the lemon juice! :( And according to the Ph paper, my urine is alkaline. So I'm at a loss. I don't think I'm chelating metals. Yesterday the lemon juice apparently took care of my achiness and fatigue and today it's not. Or - perhaps something else yesterday helped me and I mistakenly attributed it to the lemon juice - but I can't think of anything else I did differently yesterday :aghhh:
 

percyval577

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Or - perhaps something else yesterday helped me and I mistakenly attributed it to the lemon juice - but I can't think of anything else I did differently yesterday :aghhh:
This illness is a riddle anyway.
In my experience citrate acid ever worked immediatly, but in your case it wasn´t. Though I am constantly slowly improving, so on the other side it also could be that in your case the good effect only later had made its way around.

But then again, I guess a lot of people use to drink lemon juice, and ann occasionally strong effect would be known. For me it´s still good, although a couple of days ago I made the mistake to drink a beer, and the mistake is still going to last for a week as it seems, despite lemon juice. Neverhteless, maybe you add 150µg cyanocobalamin (no hydroxy I guess) and a drop of 5% vinegar (acetylation?) to the juice?? At least I think this might have prolonged the good effect in my case if it really was going to vanish now (don´t think so though).
 
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Mary

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So, taken together, metal management could be very easily a part of any improvement. Chelating metals could
mean a loosening of bad configurations that lasts from the past.
Consequently I would also claim, for unexplained or unjustified elevated pain (e.g. my tooth was already dead) citrate acid could easily be the medical of first try.
I think I understand what you're saying here, that citric acid caused metals to be chelated and moved out of the body - is that correct? I did do some chelation before and usually felt not well from it - it caused heavy metals and toxins to be released from my cells but then they just recirculated and redeposited in my tissues. I didn't get a good reaction from it.

I did a post earlier in this thread about glycine, inositol and glutamine and how they helped get toxins and heavy metals out of my body.

But if the citric acid is helping you, I'm glad to hear it! It is a balancing act getting the right minerals (and other nutrients) in the right combination and amounts!

By the way, the achiness is going away again! I'm happy, I'm feeling better, but it's driving me mad!! :bang-head:
This illness is a riddle!!!
 

percyval577

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I think I understand what you're saying here, that citric acid caused metals to be chelated and moved out of the body - is that correct?
Partly correct. I think that metals which the body wants to release from their very place (because there the action should decline) needs to be captured by the citrate acid, and may get to some extent repositioned (to a place where actions should now be done).

In my experience the citrate acid worked indeed for only some time, then I needed to take in chocolate. It was experimenting of course, but first it seemed to be better to take in not too much, but now, after about two months, I often eat or drink better more.

To me it looks like a wanted mechanism, though I have no idea, if it would involve more complex citrate transporters. Prossibly not, and the citrate acid would simply release the metals when accidently hitting a place where it is needed.

I did do some chelation before and usually felt not well from it - it caused heavy metals and toxins to be released from my cells but then they just recirculated and redeposited in my tissues. I didn't get a good reaction from it.
From my perspective I think well that a repositioning can be a bad idea. In my case I know well enough that high manganese is a problem, so under high managnese the citrate/chocolate thing would make that the metals go where the evil manganese wants them to have, to say it like so.

If a comparable influence could explain your experiences I don´t know of course. Maybe not, but I have also to say that I haven´t delved into chelaters any further. So it could be that the different chelators would be of importance.

(I know, manganese is also a metal, this makes it not all easy, but it rather doesn´t say anything, because the assumption is "it is high", so it is implicated that it comes again into the body to cause the bad effects, in my case.)

By the way, the achiness is going away again! I'm happy, I'm feeling better, but it's driving me mad!! :bang-head:
Maybe the madness is a good sign???;) (In my case the improvement was indeed most of the time difficult, less aching (progredient), good sleep, worse thinking and worse vision (essentially non-progredient), other kind of unrest than before, :mad:)

I am still on my way, though it´s not any more that difficult, luckily. I hope citrate acid holds even more water than in my case (so far).
 
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Mary

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fwiw, I woke up only a tiny bit achy this morning and my energy is not bad, definitely better than it's been for several weeks! I took some more lemon juice. I'm beginning to think the lemon juice is affecting both my acid/alkaline balance (in a positive way) AND the Krebs cycle. It's giving me more energy than plain baking soda did. The baking soda did make my urine alkaline, but didn't touch the achiness or fatigue.

I'm wondering now if the Krebs cycle has some relation to acidity/alkalinity, though I'm sure everything in the body is inter-related. I guess my question is, if the Krebs cycle is subpar, does that cause acidity? or, does acidity negatively affect the Krebs cycle? Or it could just be the citric acid is helping the Krebs cycle. In any event, I'm going to keep this up! (as long as I continue to get good results)
 

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Good luck @Mary
Never was a truer word said: "This illness is a riddle"

I hope this will bring you more benefits as time goes by. Definitely worth a shot!
 

Mary

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@sb4 - I'm using the stuff you buy in a bottle. Ideally of course I would use fresh-squeezed lemon juice, but it would be too expensive, plus a lot of work to squeeze all the lemons!
 

percyval577

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@sb4 , @Mary, I recently had a look at such a bottle (in case that I suddenly would need it when not at home), and there is some other stuff in, which for me might be bad (have forgotten what it is).

True though that in lemons itself some stuff might be which would conceal the effect in anybody else.