Non-Standard Anti-Anxiety Treatment

[Hip]

I used it on average three times a week with large doses

What sort of phenibut doses did you take? Because I have this (perhaps somewhat irrational) wariness of drugs that have withdrawal symptoms, I've not wanted to experiment with phenibut, but I think I did take it once at a dose of 500 mg, but did not notice much.

So you think taurine has more noticeable effects than glycine or theanine or progesterone ?

Certainly 4 grams of taurine are much more noticeable than theanine; I hardly noticed anything from theanine, it did not even dent the high anxiety levels I used to have. But I think I was only taking around 200 of theanine, so perhaps that's not a fair comparison.

Progesterone is more comparable to taurine.

Arginine in high doses I also found to have a substantial anti-anxiety effect. Arginine is actually a GABA receptor positive allosteric modulator (like benzos are). Any arginine supplement would work, I found, but I tended to use arginine pyroglutamate, as this is known to cross the blood-brain barrier more easily than other forms of arginine. I would typically take a heaped teaspoon of arginine pyroglutamate powder, which is about 5 grams.

Unfortunately, this would occasionally cause herpes cold sore flare up around my mouth, especially if taken many days in a row. But I discovered that snorting arginine pyroglutamate (around 100 mg) was actually almost as effective for anti-anxiety purposes, as I think this gets the arginine directly into the brain. And with these low intranasal doses, there was no cold sores.

 

[Hip]

As far asmagnesium, interesting.

You might like to see my method of transdermal magnesium sulfate application here.



If you have gut issues like IBS or SIBO, then improving the gut I found can greatly reduce anxiety. When the vagus nerve detects inflammation in the gut (eg from gut dysbiosis), it sends a signal to the brain, instructing the brain to ramp up its own internal level of neuroinflammation. So in this way, gut inflammation can increase brain inflammation, which in turn means more glutamate in the brain, and more NMDA activation.

I have IBS, and I found prebiotics (more than probiotics) helped improve gut health, and this substantially reduced my glutamate-driven anxiety levels. See this thread.

 

[frozenborderline]

What sort of phenibut doses did you take? Because I have this (perhaps somewhat irrational) wariness of drugs that have withdrawal symptoms, I've not wanted to experiment with phenibut, but I think I did take it once at a dose of 500 mg, but did not notice much.

I started with 1 g and my tolerance slightly increased to the point where sometimes I'd hit a high of 3 g.. but that was strong... I wouldn't say my tolerance doubled, and even with the tolerance increase I didnt get withdrawals...

Really most of my doses were between 1.5 and 2 g . I did this for a solid half year.

Everyone's different but I had no problem limiting my use to three times a week despite how it was euphoric and useful. and that amount didnt cause withdrawals. This was when I was less sick, and maybe more severely I'll ppl would be more sensitive to yoyoing their gaba and glutamate levels and receptors, but it seems like if one manages to exercise even a little self control phenibut can be used safely. And this is speaking as someone who is /was an AA member with a previous drinking problem, so it's not like I hav2 no weaknesses

 

[frozenborderline]

You might like to see my method of transdermal magnesium sulfate application here.



If you have gut issues like IBS or SIBO, then improving the gut I found can greatly reduce anxiety. When the vagus nerve detects inflammation in the gut (eg from gut dysbiosis), it sends a signal to the brain, instructing the brain to ramp up its own internal level of neuroinflammation. So in this way, gut inflammation can increase brain inflammation, which in turn means more glutamate in the brain, and more NMDA activation.

I have IBS, and I found prebiotics (more than probiotics) helped improve gut health, and this substantially reduced my glutamate-driven anxiety levels. See this thread.

My guess is that the glutamate excess in my brain is from two predominant sourcss: brain injury from compression or stretch injury in brainstem, and biotoxins that cause glutamate and inflammation (like the way domoic acid or penitrem a cause neurotoxicity). Not ruling out the gut as a cause, but especially wi th how severe my cci and biotoxin sensitivity is those are the top two theories.

 

[frozenborderline]

Certainly 4 grams of taurine are much more noticeable than theanine; I hardly noticed anything from theanine, it did not even dent the high anxiety levels I used to have. But I think I was only taking around 200 of theani

Yeah I've gone up to 1 g of theanine and it does have a noticeable if fairly mild effect

 

[Hip]

My guess is that the glutamate excess in my brain is from two predominant sourcss: brain injury from compression or stretch injury in brainstem, and biotoxins that cause glutamate and inflammation

I suspect in my case the main brain inflammation comes from have a virus in my brain (my ME/CFS started with viral encephalitis), but I think gut inflammation pushes that brain inflammation to higher levels.

With severe GAD, I was a complete desperado, and was trying anything to reduce it. I'd try out any angle, or any idea, in the hope that something would work.

I used to find that snorting warm steam from a boiling kettle would help reduce anxiety. Obviously your nose has to be about a foot or so above the kettle, to give the steam a chance to cool a bit, as you don't want to burn yourself.

The warm steam I found would reduce inflammation in my nasal cavity and sinuses, and again this I believe reduces brain inflammation (I suspect that nerves in the nasal and sinus cavities signal to the brain, much like the vagus signaling, and this signaling will increase neuroinflammation).

Once your anxiety gets to what is medically classified as severe, you actually spend your entire day trying to reduce it. No other thought enters your head other than trying to reduce the anxiety levels. I spent around 7 years like that, so as you can imagine, I tried a lot of things! I guess you may be in a similar state with trying to deal with constant pain.

 

[frozenborderline]

Well, while we are on the subject, xenon is the best anxiolytic I've ever had.

That's not the main reason I tried it. Pain and sound sensitivity were bigger concerns for me. But I definitely have a wired-tired state and anxiety and fear. Xenon obliterates it. Its being studies for ptsd. Anyway compared to other nmda antagonists it is more effective in this way. not only is ketamine not sympatholytic it's actually sympathomimetic ... it increases bp and peripheral adrenaline I think, even if it can help with OCD and central nervous system mediated anxiety types. But xenon totally destroys fear and pain, instantly
https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=114686

 

[Wayne]

Just a brief comment on GABA, and its ability to cross the BBB. -- I tried "regular" GABA many years ago, and noticed very little in terms of calming, or anything else. I then ran across a GABA supplement that said it was specifically formulated to cross the BBB.

I decided to try it, and I immediately noticed a big shift. So my best guess was that it was indeed crossing the BBB. Unfortunately, this company quit making this supplement about two years later. And I've never found another GABA product that said it was formulated to cross the BBB.

 

[Hip]

I then ran across a GABA supplement that said it was specifically formulated to cross the BBB.

Maybe that was similar to picamilon, or was actually picamilon. Picamilon is essentially a means to get GABA into the brain, by bonding the GABA molecule to a niacin molecule.

I don't know the details of why, but this GABA-niacin combo can cross the BBB.

That said, I did not find picamilon particular strong as an anti-anxiety drug/supplement.

 

[pamojja]

Magnesium sulfate injections are both painful and damage veins. So I would suggest the transdermal route.

Wait a minute.. During the last 3 years I've got 34 Magnsium sulfate inFUSIONS, which kept my Mg-deficiency in check (muscle-spasm), didn't hurt at all (which is maybe more because of my particula doc - at a nearby hospital simple blooddraws by nurses usually hurt like hell). And I would be courious how to find out if my perfect vains (for injections) would thereby have been hurt? - Thanks.

 

[Hip]

Wait a minute.. During the last 3 years I've got 34 Magnsium sulfate inFUSIONS, which kept my Mg-deficiency in check (muscle-spasm), didn't hurt at all (which is maybe more because of my particula doc - at a nearby hospital simple blooddraws by nurses usually hurt like hell). And I would be courious how to find out if my perfect vains (for injections) would thereby have been hurt? - Thanks.

Dr Myhill's page on magnesium sulfate injections mentions that these injections can be painful and cause tissue damage:

The injection is painful because one is injecting a hypertonic solution.

I prefer these subcutaneous injections because they cause less tissue damage and bruising compared to the intramuscular injection.

I've never tried magnesium injections myself, so cannot compare their effects to transdermal magnesium.


Myhill also details the rectal route for magnesium:

Giving magnesium by injection is the quickest way of restoring normal blood and tissue levels of magnesium. However, for some patients the injections, whilst giving benefit, are too painful to be considered long term.

 

[pamojja]

Dr Myhill's page on magnesium sulfate injections mentions that these injections can be painful and cause tissue damage:

Thanks for clarifying. I'm surprissed she prefers subcutaneous, even though she mentions using IV too. I guess because they can be given straight, instead of having someone hooked up in the office for an hour.

In fact it is partly this effect which is taken advantage of in the treatment of acute myocardial infarction (MI) or acute stroke. In both these conditions there is a local obstruction of blood supply. I use i.v. magnesium (2-5mls of 50%) as a bolus to treat both these conditions - often with dramatic effects. With acute MIs there is often immediate pain relief as either the obstruction is relieved or good collateral circulation restored. Furthermore, magnesium is antiarrhytmic. Trials with magnesium have clearly demonstrated benefit and magnesium is used as a front line medication in many hospitals

In my 34 infusions, each 10ml 50% Mg-sulfate in 250ml saline (I'm glucose intolerant) over aprox. 1 hr, were infused absolutely painless. Whenever I feel too much warmth, I slow the dropper down a little bit. The first hour after an IV my gait is a little infirm. But that's it. Once I tried a sodium ascorbate IV 15g right afterwards. Difference experienced was: I emptied my bladder afterwards like never before, lack of infirm gait and very energized. While otherwise very calmed.

 

[Cnew2this]

Thanks @Hip for starting this thread (and the 2012 thread). I like the approach of reducing inflammation to reduce anxiety. I also have come to believe that my sinusitis and anxiety typically go together.

I see that you have concluded that N-Acetyl-Glucosamine is one of the supplements that was most effective for you. Do you think Glucosamine HCL (which I happen to have) would be beneficial at all, at least until I can get some NAG? I see you did mention that glucosamine sulfate is not helpful for anxiety, but I didn’t see mention of Glucosamine HCL. Sorry if that question has been asked and answered. It’s a very long thread, so I’m sure I missed some things.

Also wanted to weigh in on my experience with Mg Infusions. I tried that 3 times many years ago. It was excruciatingly painful even though my Dr. kept slowing it down.

 

[pamojja]

on my experience with Mg Infusions. I tried that 3 times many years ago. It was excruciatingly painful even though my Dr. kept slowing it down.

How strange, and so totally contrary to my completely painless 34 Mg-infusions!?! However, maybe that is really an individual thing. The assistant at my doc's office also warned me how painful the ascorbate infusion has been for her. So I too was a bid anxious before my first. However, even though in contrast to the Mg the ascorbate was infused very fast within 5 minutes (50 ml), absolutely no pain with the ascorbate IV at all too.

 

[Hip]

I see you did mention that glucosamine sulfate is not helpful for anxiety, but I didn’t see mention of Glucosamine HCL.

I believe the reason N-acetyl glucosamine has anti-inflammatory effects in the brain is because it can cross the blood-brain barrier more easily. I don't think glucosamine sulfate or hydrochloride are a good penetrators of the BBB. I've never noticed any anti-anxiety effects from glucosamine sulfate. You can try glucosamine HCl, but I don't think it will have anti-neuroinflammation or anti-anxiety effects.

 

[Cnew2this]

@pamojja
That is very strange that some people are affected so much by the Mg Infusions and some not at all. Seems like there is something to be learned about my body there, but I don’t know what.

I was not very happy with my Dr for not warning me that it might be painful. It was kind of frightening when it started. The pain wasn’t at the injection site, but radiated up my arm and into my shoulder and neck. She wasn’t at all surprised and just said “It happens to some people. We really don’t understand why.” Despite her reassurances that it wasn’t something to worry about, I just couldn’t continue with the treatments. At the time, I was trying them in an attempt to reduce migraines, and it didn’t seem to help, but I probably didn’t continue long enough to give it a chance. Glad the infusions work for you though.

 

[Cnew2this]

@Hip Thanks for that reply. I am going to order some NAG today and start taking the glucosamine HCL until it arrives. Do you know if NAG is a major sulfur source? I try not to overdo it on sulfur foods and supplements.
Again - I'm really glad I found your threads. Some very promising info in them.

 

[pamojja]

That is very strange that some people are affected so much by the Mg Infusions and some not at all. Seems like there is something to be learned about my body there, but I don’t know what.

Maybe a reaction to an other ingredient, like in this experience: http://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15057&sid=3f1fbcd9e0e6eec7e77fd6488092cdcf

 

[Cnew2this]

Thanks @pamojja for that link. It sounds like that person was experiencing a lasting pain, that was in their veins, whereas the pain I experienced was my entire upper arm and shoulder. Really intense at first but after the injection was over it dissipated completely within about 30 min. One thing I remember now is that I slept really poorly each night after getting the infusion. Whereas the Mg should have created the opposite effect. When I asked my Dr. about that she then admitted that she had included B12 in the infusion. Who knows what else she was adding and forgot to mention.

 

[frozenborderline]

Yes, there are a lot of unusual Russian or Soviet-era drugs that target the brain, anxiolytics and others. Although I've not really come across any glowing reports of these drugs, suggesting efficacy is not that great.

Not Soviet, but still similarly rooted in local/regional science and ethno botanical stuff, and gabaergic. Just learned about gaboxadol.. from an episode of hamiltons pharmacopeia