No love of B2 here - a warning about riboflavin

[Kathevans]

@alicec I'm rarely sure about anything! But the Wikipedia nerds seem to say so!

"However, deficiencies can be caused by consuming raw egg whites over a period of months to years. Egg whites contain high levels of avidin, a protein that binds biotin strongly. When cooked, avidin is partially denatured and binding to biotin is reduced. However one study showed that 30-40% of the avidin activity was still present in the white after frying or boiling.[1] Hence excessive cooked egg white consumption could possibly cause biotin deficiency."

This link relates to biotin deficiency. Hey! What happened to the font size?!

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland Well, for the moment I've stopped my beloved eggs and have turned to vegetable/lentil soups mixed with broth...currently a rich mix I made from a turkey carcass simmered for about 14 hours. Yum. These broths take effort, but they are delicious!

 

[South]

normalize Folic Acid

@Gondwanaland I think you may have meant "folate", since folic acid isn't actually folate (Yikes, the folate topic shows up in so many places on these forums)

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland I think you may have meant "folate", since folic acid isn't actually folate (Yikes, the folate topic shows up in so many places on these forums)

I said Folic Acid because that is what my blood results say.
EDIT- BTW to activate a folic acid supplement or folinic acid it takes B2+Choline, so high blood levels of folic acid or whatever might mean a build up of inactive stuff waiting for B2 or a methyl donor (e.g. choline). Mfolate bypasses that.

 

[Kathevans]

I said Folic Acid because that is what my blood results say.
EDIT- BTW to activate a folic acid supplement or folinic acid it takes B2+Choline, so high blood levels of folic acid or whatever might mean a build up of inactive stuff waiting for B2 or a methyl donor (e.g. choline). Mfolate bypasses that.

Yes, I've read this. So if I eat lots of veggies, I need lots of B2. But with the mention of choline, I'm reminded that I'll have to find a replacement for choline and inositol, both of which are in the eggs I've just given up. Am I right?

Too bad, I was high in both of those on my recent SpectraCell test.

I don't know how you stay on top of it!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know how you stay on top of it!

I don't think I do!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm reminded that I'll have to find a replacement for choline and inositol, both of which are in the eggs I've just given up. Am I right?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50
http://www.livestrong.com/article/506226-foods-high-in-inositol/ (inositol content at the end)

 

[Gondwanaland]

After starting the riboflavin, and then getting the awful low serotonin issues, but before making the connection, I tried 5htp, tryptophan, eating lots of carbs for a couple of days (ie, a very large amount, trying to raise my mood), none of these helped.

For what it's worth, my routine for the past year or so before the riboflavin experiment has been:
*healthy diet, limiting intake of fake folic acid even in foods
*low dose use of methylfolate and methyl B12, I have not raised the doses and don't notice much
*about 250 mg per day of niacinamide.
That's all for B vitamins for the past year or so. Perhaps that made me too low in the other B vitamins to balance out the riboflavin.

I can't remember if this has come up earlier, but have you had a complete iron panel?

 

[alicec]

@alicec I'm rarely sure about anything! But the Wikipedia nerds seem to say so!

"However, deficiencies can be caused by consuming raw egg whites over a period of months to years. Egg whites contain high levels of avidin, a protein that binds biotin strongly. When cooked, avidin is partially denatured and binding to biotin is reduced. However one study showed that 30-40% of the avidin activity was still present in the white after frying or boiling.[1] Hence excessive cooked egg white consumption could possibly cause biotin deficiency."

This link relates to biotin deficiency. Hey! What happened to the font size?!

Thanks for that. I'll look at that study. I must say it is a long time since I have looked at anything on avidin.

 

[alicec]

I said Folic Acid because that is what my blood results say.

Labs that report blood results as folic acid should know better. They are misreporting what they actually measure. It seems that the propaganda of industrial producers of folic acid has been very successful when even scientists are convinced that folic acid = folate.

The folate test is a competitive binding assay using a naturally occurring folate binding protein. It will bind all forms of folate, including folic acid. The result is for the totality of folates in blood. The test cannot distinguish between them.

The predominant form of folate in blood is methylfolate. If one is supplementing folic acid and/or eating fortified flour products, folic acid would also be present along with minor forms mainly from vegetables.

 

[SuckSmoothie]

Hi all, i recently had an Organic Acids Test from Nutreval and it showed high B2 in my body, whether it's inactive or active B2 I don't know.

I tried taking a bit of r5p last night (4mg) to see if I can get p5p to work for me again. This morning I was glued to my bed, woke up very tired and almost slept through my alarm. My vision has problems adjusting to light sensitivity and my eyes are watery for no apparent reason. I've been on mb12, mfolate for more than two weeks, and I just started LCF yesterday but this is a new conundrum for me.

Every time I've taken b2 I've reacted negatively to it, but after starting methylation and improving stomach acid with TMG I thought I'd give it a go, but the problems still persist

Has this happened to anyone with b2? How did you get it to work with p5p?

 

[pogoman]

@SuckSmoothie
just a suggestion to see if you are allergic/sensitive to sulfur compounds.

stop the TMG and any other sulfur containing supplements and then try the B2 and p5p a day or two later.

I am allergic to sulfa medicines like Septra, I have found that anything with sulfur in it will cause the symptoms you have.
I had to stop my blood pressure med after my script refill was a new generic brand, I had increased tiredness and sleeping too much.
I only noticed the connection because I had tried taurine a few weeks before and got the same reaction.
googling found that its not an uncommon situation, I have much better energy altho my bp is steadily rising.

 

[CCC]

It might not have been the B2.

Try this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/carnitine-more-fatigue.27832/

LCF wasn't too good for us - it induced (more) fatigue. And that was after a month, maybe two months, of b12 and methylfolate.

 

[aaron_c]

stop the TMG and any other sulfur containing supplements

Hi Pogoman

It looks like you are suggesting that TMG has sulfur in it--which it does not.

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but did taurine appear to cause only fatigue, or the watery eyes and poor light sensitivity too?

 

[pogoman]

Hi Pogoman

It looks like you are suggesting that TMG has sulfur in it--which it does not.

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but did taurine appear to cause only fatigue, or the watery eyes and poor light sensitivity too?

I was going off of memory of what supplements gave me those issues.
SAMe, MSM, milk thistle and taurine are ones I know give me problems and I think TMG also.
Losartan does not contain sulfur (form of potassium) but many with sulfa allergies report problems with it and other bp meds.
itchy eyes, tired and wanting to sleep way past 8 hrs and still sleepy were my symptoms.

 

[Little Bluestem]

The B vitamins work together and need to be taken together. You need to take (at least) B1 (thiamine), B3 (niacin), B5 (pantothinic acid), B6/P5P (pyridoxine), B7 (biotin), B9 (folate, probably not as folic acid), B12 (cobalamin, probably not as cyanocobalamin), and manganese.

B1, B2, and manganese would probably be a good place to start. Then add the others starting with biotin.

 

[lch1]

Thank you, South. I thought I was going rapidly downhill for no reason at all!!!

 

[garyfritz]

Labs that report blood results as folic acid should know better. They are misreporting what they actually measure. It seems that the propaganda of industrial producers of folic acid has been very successful when even scientists are convinced that folic acid = folate.

@alicec, I have had seemingly-knowledgeable people (such as Greg the b12oils.com PhD biochemist) insist that folic acid and folate, while not identical, are converted from one to the other constantly in the body - so it is pointless to distinguish between them. You appear to understand this stuff. Can you clarify?

 

[Kathevans]

And yet, I thought Fred has said they are not the same...Anyone know the facts?

seemingly-knowledgeable people (such as Greg the b12oils.com PhD biochemist) insist that folic acid and folate, while not identical, are converted from one to the other constantly in the body

 

[Gondwanaland]

And yet, I thought Fred has said they are not the same...Anyone know the facts?

The body will definetly react differently to the the differnt forms. I could see it clearly in my husband:
Folic Acid - increased pain
MFolate - depression (he is -MAO-A and it would make this enzyme even faster)
Folinic is well tolerated by him.