No love of B2 here - a warning about riboflavin
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No it doesn't show that - it simply shows that they are involved in neurotransmitter production and breakdown. Insufficient cofactor might slow down the reactions but sufficient or excess cofactor simply means that the reactions proceed at the rate determined by all the factors controlling neurotransmitters.
Also the diagrams are incorrect. BH4 is the cofactor for tyrosine and tryptophan hydroxylases and MTHF has nothing to do with BH4 production. It is not involved in these reactions.
I read it - it is wrong. Just because someone claims something on the internet doesn't mean it is correct.
The statement is based on the complete misreading of research by Amy Yasko when she claimed that the MTHFR reaction ran in reverse and in doing so regenerated BH4. This has since been picked up by many and claimed to be fact. Actually it is biochemical ignorance, based on misunderstanding a single study in which conditions were manipulated in a test tube to make the enzyme run in reverse. (They were interested in the mechanism of the reaction, not studying what happened in the body). The study didn't even use the BH2 > BH4 reaction but used a related molecule qBH2 which is not the same thing.
Here and here are posts which give more detail.
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I was only able to get to thee second page due to brain fog and dizziness, but I am supposed to start micro dosing with B2 very soon. From what I read on here, I’m very nervous since I alsready suffer greatly from anxiety, insomnia and depression.
Any thoughts for me?
Any thoughts for me?
Kathevans
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@Britton777 B2 tends to have a calming effect. It's one of the Bs that I can and do take at night when I can't sleep. I started small, it felt weird to me and I then had to slowly titrate up on its cofactors -- selenium, molybdenum (the hardest for me) and iodine (to make sure the thyroid gland is working sufficiently; or if it is, fine) --once they were on board I could take much larger doses.
Amazingly, at 200mg/day, I still seem not to be taking enough.
Amazingly, at 200mg/day, I still seem not to be taking enough.
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Really? B2 helps you sleep? I’d love to hear more! Does it cause restlessness and anxiety in some people? I have horrible chronic insomnia and anxiety. Wondering if it could help me. My B2 supplement will be here tomorrow.
Peyt
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I have been taking B2 for a few days now and it has helps with my sleep as well. It does not necceserily help me
fall sleep but it helps me stay sleep for more than 2 hours (which was my previous pattern)... I really hope this
is not a short term benefit and it lasts long term.
In fact, that and the calming effect is the only benefit i am feeling.... I am now wondering if the reason why it helps some people and not others has to do with if the person is an overmethylator or undermethylator?.... and based on that it helps/not help them.
grapes
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How much B2?
Peyt
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36.5 mg once a day.... I am still experimenting with the dosage though since I just started.
Peyt
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BTW, I think it's interesting that both myself and kathevens are ++ on the COMT genes. It may be that the improvement in sleep works well for us because B2 is a methyltrapper and we have too much methyls and so it works.
And it makes others who don't have the COMT ++ feel worst! It goes to show that this is not a one size fits all science!
And it makes others who don't have the COMT ++ feel worst! It goes to show that this is not a one size fits all science!
I'll just throw it in here for those that B2 has helped in this long thread, its a cofactor in mitochondrial and other processes.
If you google "riboflavin responsive" you'll get tons of hits on the various mito and neuro diseases that B2 helps.
For me, taking 100 mg of B2 (along with coq10) twice a day keeps the muscle and neuro pain low enough I can get by without opiates.
If you google "riboflavin responsive" you'll get tons of hits on the various mito and neuro diseases that B2 helps.
For me, taking 100 mg of B2 (along with coq10) twice a day keeps the muscle and neuro pain low enough I can get by without opiates.
Kathevans
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One more thing I just learned. Boron depletes B2. So, be careful if you take boron, to increase your B2 levels. I've just learned this the hard way....!
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@Kathevans how much boron/B2 were you taking? What symptoms did you get from lowered B2? Did they resolve by just taking B2?
Sorry for the myriad of questions but I believe I had the same issue and still can't figure it out completely.
I'm taking 3mg chelated boron and 1/4 of a regular 50mg riboflavin tablet(12.5mg total per day) but have some symptoms of too much B2 like flopping heart(low potassium probably due to methylation ramping up)
Sorry for the myriad of questions but I believe I had the same issue and still can't figure it out completely.
I'm taking 3mg chelated boron and 1/4 of a regular 50mg riboflavin tablet(12.5mg total per day) but have some symptoms of too much B2 like flopping heart(low potassium probably due to methylation ramping up)
Kathevans
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@bond I'm still following refeeding symptoms and increasing the amount of boron I'm taking. I'm up to at least 15mg of boron /day. As far as my research has gone (check out this piece on the Physiological effects of Boron, particularly under the section on enzymatic reactions, I think: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ec1f/4e3a7bb5c292affd19a04b5d5edff6d78089.pdf), it seems that boron can not only have an effect on B2 in the form of FAD, but also NAD, a follow-up of B3. And perhaps pyridoxine, right? So I have increased both the amount of niacin I take-about 100-150 mg/day, as well as the B2, also about 200mg/day.
The symptoms I have struggled with and still have seemed to be folate deficiency symptoms--runny nose, in particular, but I also have many heart issues that go along with refeeding deficiencies: pvcs, palpitations, etc--and it was Fred who suggested I look further down the folate chain to what else might be causing it. So far I've held my folate to about 25-30mg, whereas before the need seemed insatiable.
But I am still flummoxed and uncertain as to where I will end up.
I don't know if it's in this thread, but I have suffered from a mouth infection of a bacterial/fungal sort (definitely not thrush) for about 25 years--ever since I took zantac for about 8 years for reflux and followed that with a dose of antibiotics--this combo was what pushed me over the edge into fibro/chronic fatigue and a worsening of my symptoms over the next decades.
Metyhylation has begun to turn things around, and boron is the most recent in a long list of things I've titrated up on over L-o-n-g periods of time. The carnitine first seemed to address my gut issues seriously and research revealed that carnitine did, indeed, have an effect on high levels of clostridium, which stool tests showed I had (though not difficile, so no transplant for me!). Now it is clear that the boron is challenging whatever this other major infection is. Fred has said that with boron deficiency one can have constant infections of the oral and vaginal mucosa, and indeed I have had chronic issues with my condition.
To sum up, boron has made an enormous difference in my sleep--which is still broken, but more enduring--in my ibs and colon transport time--huge shift--and in the fungal/bacterial overgrowth in my mouth. Whether continued use will shift how my body can actually utilize B2, B12 and the others remains to be seen. But I suspect it will have a huge effect.
I'll have to wait another six months or so to have another NutrEval to see how I'm actually functioning...
Btw, and possibly to repeat, I began using small-185mcg/dose--amounts of Boron last May, and had a big response from the start--it shifted sleep patterns, gave me more stamina... We shall see...
The symptoms I have struggled with and still have seemed to be folate deficiency symptoms--runny nose, in particular, but I also have many heart issues that go along with refeeding deficiencies: pvcs, palpitations, etc--and it was Fred who suggested I look further down the folate chain to what else might be causing it. So far I've held my folate to about 25-30mg, whereas before the need seemed insatiable.
But I am still flummoxed and uncertain as to where I will end up.
I don't know if it's in this thread, but I have suffered from a mouth infection of a bacterial/fungal sort (definitely not thrush) for about 25 years--ever since I took zantac for about 8 years for reflux and followed that with a dose of antibiotics--this combo was what pushed me over the edge into fibro/chronic fatigue and a worsening of my symptoms over the next decades.
Metyhylation has begun to turn things around, and boron is the most recent in a long list of things I've titrated up on over L-o-n-g periods of time. The carnitine first seemed to address my gut issues seriously and research revealed that carnitine did, indeed, have an effect on high levels of clostridium, which stool tests showed I had (though not difficile, so no transplant for me!). Now it is clear that the boron is challenging whatever this other major infection is. Fred has said that with boron deficiency one can have constant infections of the oral and vaginal mucosa, and indeed I have had chronic issues with my condition.
To sum up, boron has made an enormous difference in my sleep--which is still broken, but more enduring--in my ibs and colon transport time--huge shift--and in the fungal/bacterial overgrowth in my mouth. Whether continued use will shift how my body can actually utilize B2, B12 and the others remains to be seen. But I suspect it will have a huge effect.
I'll have to wait another six months or so to have another NutrEval to see how I'm actually functioning...
Btw, and possibly to repeat, I began using small-185mcg/dose--amounts of Boron last May, and had a big response from the start--it shifted sleep patterns, gave me more stamina... We shall see...
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