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Naviaux et. al.: Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
People need a metaphor to understand stuff like this, and I'm quite happy with the protective hibernating state idea, even if it may not be entirely accurate. It's certainly better than the abusive metaphors we've had to put up with until now, and I find this model quite positive.

Whenever I've heard the saying "the early bird catches the worm" I've always identified with the worm and wondered why everyone doesn't just stay in bed until those annoying birds have buggered off. Now I've got the perfect response - "the wise nematode hibernates".
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
We could have dauer disease. Oops, DD, an apparel size. Hmm, how about it being called Dour Disease by critics. We could hope for a typo and Bauer Disease, for anyone who liked 24 and wants to pretend we are heroes. Oops, BD, maybe not. How about Chronic Hypometabolic State? Similar letters and would steal from CFS some of its thunder ... or get (in)conveniently confused with CFS.

The real problem with dauer disease is that the word dour, which I assume is a homophone of dauer, is defined as:

Relentlessly severe, stern, or gloomy in manner or appearance.

I'm not sure it would help us shake off our stigma :p
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
Thanks @Rose49

Dr Davis explains data in a way that expresses what it's showing and the many possibilities from that, because this data helps generate many hypothesis. I'd love to understand more about that, because it is tough to get through the graphs and really undertand. Exciting.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Has anyone found a explanation of dauer that isn't about nematodes (pretty sure I'm not a nematode ...)
"Dauer" means "endurance", which is probably why it's used in the case of nematodes. But as a life stage, it can be applied to other organisms. Thus far, it's mostly been for worms, but more broadly, it's simply a normal genetic reaction to certain stimuli which results in energy-conserving behavior.

There is a map in the supplementary materials section of the paper (Figure S1) showing exactly where all of the subjects and controls are from.
dauer map.jpg


It's important to keep in mind that any discussion of response to environmental triggers or conditions probably isn't going to be about pollution and such. In the cause of the Dauer state, it is a response to very different environmental conditions, such as insufficient food, cold temperatures, even predators, etc. Basically anything hostile to the subject might be capable of triggering such a state.

I do think this could lead to a name change. I think that will hasten the world waking up to what has happened and is still happening to so many of us.
Some other names for the "Dauer state" are "diapause" and "hypobiosis".

I've been trying to understand "dauer" and Googled it but still not sure exactly what it means. What would be the best translation or most similar word in English?
In this case, it would be "endurance", because it is a biological mechanism used to survive harsh conditions. "Hibernation" isn't really appropriate, because the Dauer state is often still involving activity, but growth and reproduction are very much slowed.
 

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
This is my first pass review, though I would love to see further discussion and checking by someone with a stronger stats background than I have, particularly with regard to checking for false positives:


Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome
Naviaux et. al. , published in PNAS Plus.

22 males and 23 females met Fukuda, CCC and IOM criteria. There were 18 and 21 controls respectively.

The data clustering appears to be non-overlapping between controls and patients. (Figure 1), though this might not be an accurately reflection given that ranges are not shown.

A heading in the results section summarizes the paper in one line: Homogeneous Metabolic Response to Heterogeneous Triggers. You can find detailed discussion of those findings in the appendix here: http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2016/08/24/1607571113.DCSupplemental/pnas.1607571113.sapp.pdf

This is exciting for me because many of the speculations about biochemistry that I was debating with people in the late 90s and early 2000s touched on these things from time to time. They identified over 60 candidate metabolites, and later looked at which were most diagnostic.

The next heading is particularly important: Metabolites Correlated with the Clinical Severity of CFS. They have attempted to control for false discovery, though I have not looked at that level of detail in the appendix just yet. They conclude:




I am not going to discuss all findings, just the ones I currently find interesting. Its a really long list, and I don't want to just quote huge lists of issues and hypothesized issues.

The decreased sphingolipid and glycosphingolipid findings are different from found in the metabolic syndrome and the acute cell danger response, and it looks like CFS is the opposite of an acute cell danger response. I found this bit very interesting, and might indicate that the ME or CFS response is a conserved evolutionary response:




Later on they said as much, here:



This is one of the things I recall being discussed in the 90s. Indeed, I have commented many many times that CFS might be triggered in an attempt to combat potentially life threatening infections, especially in heart and brain.

Cholesterol synthesis is lowered? This is surprising to me.

Uric acid was low in males, and adenosine in females. I wonder what this implies for me as my uric acid is always high.

Two of the amino acid findings are not what you would expect from acute inflammation or infection. However other findings in the paper suggest otherwise. Its not a clear issue.

FAD, or flavin adenine dinucleotide, appears to be low, and so you might expect B vitamin issues and especially problems with lipoic acid and glutathione.

Increased arginine, which I think is suspected in susceptibility to herpes virus infections, seems to be associated with decreased post operative infection as well. Hmmmmm ...

HICA, or 2-Hydoxyisocaproic acid, was low, which might mean suseptibility to bacterial and fungal infection.

There is an interesting quote that reflects possible treatments: Our clinical experience suggests that symptom improvements can be achieved more reliably by addressing the personalized abnormalities rather than by assuming a chemical abnormality without actual measurement.

They write about similarities to the dauer state, a type of hibernation, but in a fast look at some literature it appears to be more about dormant nematodes (worms) and not bears. They survive hostile conditions this way. They say this:




This I found very interesting given my personal health:




One long term therapeutic research direction is to investigate the role of NADPH.

The importance of this study is summed up near the end:




If validated I think these findings will change ME research forever. I really hope they can be shown to be accurate, and that further studies will expand on these findings, lead to better patient cohort selection, and selected biochemical targets for intervention. Exciting times ...


Would the dauer state cause low body temperature? Did they record patients' temperature?
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
Just got through the paper

These findings in my eyes are IMMENSE

First of: Good use of criteria, patients from all over USA, a good mix of men and women.
Secondly: Metabolic abnormalities were consistent regardless of trigger
Third: There were LOADS of metabolic abnormalities, and they were opposite of what you se in metabolic syndrome and cell danger response (hypermetabolic states)
Fourth: They concluded that ME is a hypometabolic state, with a profile similar to the medically recognised survival state of "dauer", which occurs when humans experience extreme circumstances where it may die if it not change its metabolism. E.g. in extremely cold conditions, or in states of extreme hunger. ME could in other words be a evolutionary conserved hypometabolic state remniscent of this, that for some reason occurs in response to other triggers together with genetic predispositions.
Fifth: Only 25 % of the abnormalities were needed to diagnose ME/CFS, the other 75 % were individual and could potentially be used for personalized medicine.
Sixth: ME could based on these abnormalities be diagnosed with 90 % certainty.

Spread it to the papers people! I am pumped. This is an incredibly exciting alternative to the autoimmune theory (or even a downstream metabolic profile of autoimmunity that has nothing to do with "dauer" like states), possibly; another disease mechanism under the ME/CFS umbrella.

More importantly it pawes the way for new research, and strongly indicates that ME is a serious multi-systemic disease.!

Thanks for making this understandable for me. Is it ok if I use your six points on other forums to make clear the significance of this study?
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
My brain is reeling and attempting to go into hibernation mode. I note that Dr Myhill has been proposing some of this and some supplements for a long time now - not exactly THIS but overlapping in some ways.

Secondly this is surely still only a downstream effect of something else that happens (trigger? genes?) and surely we still NEED to find that so that this study makes sense? maybe im wrong but some rambling thoughts...

How does this fit with a lot of the comorbidities? MCAS, POTS, EDS? (I POSSIBLY HAVE ALL THREE) Also interested in why some patients are very thin and lose weight and others, like me pile it on and cant shift it?

Uric acid was low in males, and adenosine in females

Haha - I always thought I was really a man - my Uric Acid is low.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I was assuming that they are suggesting it is an evolutionary mechanism that should have gone or not be triggered.
The way I read it, it might be a last ditched response to dangerous viral infection, which also fits with the Dubbo studies. However this results in hypometabolic symptoms, and includes decreased functionality and pain. It might also increase risk to bacterial and fungal infections. Its a trade-off.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I think it will be difficult to achieve lasting improvement without removing the dauer trigger. The body isn't going to let outside intervention take it out of a needed survival state.
I am guessing a dauer state is self triggering. Internal feedback loops would make it persist. They key might be that animals that do this have a waking trigger too, that ends the state. What is it for us?
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I do not think it is a mistake but a evolutonary develped way to survive.

I think people just aren´t thinking about evolution the right way. Genes aren´t always advantageous or disadvantageous, it depends on their environment. The same goes for phenomena like altered metabolisms, and so forth. It seems quite unlikely that this is advantageous for those with severe ME, unless the bed-bound are managing to find dates, go out, and have children somehow. It may be advantageous in those with mild ME - my father, for example, had four children after getting mild ME, and although this one (the one with ME) may not have children, it´s quite likely that the others will.

Of course, this mechanism will not have been selected for solely because of ME, there will be many such diseases (or states) where it is either advantageous or disadvantageous; the fact that it seems to be so prevalent suggests that overall it is advantageous, but we cannot say whether it is advantageous or disadvantageous in any particular individual or group of individuals without studying the surrounding environment.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
The dour-dauer risk is about critics and trolls using it. Not about rational people using it.
Yes, and I think worrying about schoolyard taunts is hardly a good reason to veto any name which is ever going to be suggested. The spelling is obviously different, so would at least not encourage the online academic trolling (aka "ME ME ME", or "ME as a MEME").

But I get fed up with the excessive negativity about piddling little details. No one's even proposing a name, but people are getting caught up in shooting it down already :confused:
 
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