Multiple binders

[hb8847]

Yeh I've not had my jabs yet, been putting it off because I have MCAS and I've been worried about the reaction, but I'm also completely isolated so there's basically no risk of me catching Covid. And frankly right now whilst I'm constantly Herxing I worry how bad the reaction would be. I'm completely pro vax it's just not worth it for me yet I don't think.

Since Saturday I've been pretty good. I don't know whether it was the Boullardii or just the overall effect from binders while being far enough away from a detox reaction. But my illness had taken on a pretty mild form this week. I can feel it starting to go down hill though. So if I take another Boullardii tomorrow and I feel better again, I'll know it's that.

Good news, although I might be reluctant to attribute too much benefit to just one dose of anything, possibly this is the cumulative effects of all the binders you've taken so far?

 

[Lalia]

Hey @seamyb and @hb8847 - just been reading through this thread and had some comments that may be additive.

PC - when I saw Nathan he recommended it orally for help with bile flow and via IV for detoxification. He said to start off with the tiniest possible dose via IV to see if that helped. I'm yet to try this.

Detox 2.5 - he mentioned Kelly Halderman's detox 2.5 theory, which you may be interested in exploring. Again, it's about bile and the importance of getting elimination and bile flow working before binders will be effective. He mentioned this in a consult I had with him a couple of years ago and I'm just circling back now trying to better understand it. I'm in the same position as both of you, whereby I only tolerate tiny amounts of binders (a pinch of charcoal once every 3 - 4 days). I saw another pracitioner (@twopurplecarrots on insta) talking about how she sees patients who can't tolerate binders and often the issue is their bile isn't working well. If you google Kelly she's done a bunch of podcasts on this, one can be found here: https://www.lowtoxlife.com/detox_series_phase_2-5_detox_with_dr_kelly_halderman/

There's also a very detailed presentation here, which might provide some clues: https://www.iaacn.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3489/2019/10/Lecture-4-lg-slides-Halderman.pdf

Looking at my notes from my consult w/ him, he mentioned bile a few times. Which is interesting given @mariovitali's work and recovery after addressing bile flow/ liver with supps like TUDCA and choline.

Also, I have the same issues you have where I tolerate a new supplement for a period of time, and then, without fail after four weeks of taking it, I have a massive herx. It's always four weeks, I can time it to the day.

My most recent naturopath is encouraging me to stop taking things on a daily basis and stop trying to "work up" to big dosages. She's suggested I take a tiny amount of something, see if it does anything positive, and then drop another tiny amount in a few days later. She's saying keep it random, try to watch what the body is doing, space things out & if it does something positive - don't take it again until the benefit has worn off. She believes the four-week lead time followed by the big herx is something to do with things accumulating in my body, to the point where my detoxification ability gets overwhelmed and crashes. I had a really bad relapse following molybdenum supplementation recently, so I haven't put this into practice yet, but wanted to share the perspective.

Best of luck binding all this shit up!

 

[seamyb]

@Lalia, your comments are very timely. I've been chewing them around all day and doing so has sent me down some interesting rabbit holes. I've spent over £100 as a result so thanks for that

I've been thinking for a while now that my issues require more than just binders, as I'm so sensitive to even tiny amounts. The podcast you linked was brilliant, I listened to it and about 3 other episodes of it.

I'm going to build up liver supplements - the amino acids involved in conjugation, glutathione, etc and maybe some of the other exogenous ones like milk thistle and resveratrol. But I think I'll start with the sulforaphane (the one your podcast friend recommends for her phase 2.5 idea). This actually helps with a few detox pathways. I'll look into bile a bit more, it's not something I've thought of yet even though it's central to what I'm doing.

I'm also going to start a load of different prebiotics. I bought inulin, psyllium husk, resistant starch and a kind of cocktail of fibers. I take cumin as it helps with symptoms, but I'll be stopping this (or using only when really needed), as it is a herbal antibiotic. I suspect heavy involvement with the microbiota and just hope I haven't made something important go extinct.

Hope you stick around, you've been of great value with just that comment.

Edit: I got some PC too. This will take a long time to try everything individually

 

[hb8847]

This is really interesting, thanks @Lalia .

To be honest this all sounds exactly like what's going on with me. And yes it makes sense that if the bile detox pathway isn't working properly then binders won't do a whole lot of good either.

PC - when I saw Nathan he recommended it orally for help with bile flow and via IV for detoxification. He said to start off with the tiniest possible dose via IV to see if that helped. I'm yet to try this.

You've seen Dr Nathan himself? Do you mind me asking about this, how long for, what for specifically, was he helpful? Did he recommend any other detox related supplements?

Also is "PC" phosphatidylcholine? In the past it has done some weird things to me but I might try again now.

@seamyb has the S Boulardii made any difference? I'm still struggling on with glutathione, still haven't gone back to binders yet and thinking of reaching out to doctors.

 

[seamyb]

@seamyb has the S Boulardii made any difference? I'm still struggling on with glutathione, still haven't gone back to binders yet and thinking of reaching out to doctors.

It was complicated for a while there because I had a gum infection and was treating it with salt water - this makes me herx, so I was pretty bad for a while.

Now that It's better I seem to be ok. I'm up to about 40mg every 2nd day (I'd started on 10mg every 3rd day). It has a similar effect on the gut to the charcoal and bentonite. I get gurgling and sometimes a bit of mild pain, but it generally seems to keep motility working ok.

I seem to be doing ok at the minute, my illness is pretty mild. How much of that is down to S.Boullardii I do not know. I haven't had a bad reaction to it though... I might have been a bit more tired on it early on, but it's hard to tell. I'll keep increasing slowly and see how it goes.

One thing I have noticed is that my muscle pain is back. This seemed to disappear when I was taking charcoal. So I theorise: perhaps the charcoal was pulling the toxic crap out of my muscles and into the blood. My detox pathways are still crap, so this made me more sick but it gave my muscles a break. I haven't got much fat to store it, so maybe it goes to my muscles when it's not being excreted properly. I'd be tempted to go back onto charcoal sooner just to see if my muscle pain goes away again. Perhaps I'll take a single grain or something.

I have a load of stuff coming on Wednesday for bile and feeding the microbiota. I want to get that up and running too. I remembered today about earlier in my illness, when I was very, very bad. My symptoms would worsen when my stomach emptied into the small intestines. Perhaps this is an indicator that there is a problem with the bile.

I also wonder about my symptoms when I wake. Even on days where I feel somewhat better, I wake with a pretty bad sickness. It feels like it's radiating from my gut. Perhaps the lack of eating for 10 hours has something to do with this.

I curse my doctors for neglecting me, but at the same time it's pretty damn difficult working out what's going on with an illness that's caused by an infection in the sinuses that the immune system doesn't seem to know about but it's only making you sick because the gut won't finish what the liver started and your brain hurts for some reason. And with all these organs involved there isn't a single biological marker that anything's wrong.

 

[hb8847]

I have a load of stuff coming on Wednesday for bile and feeding the microbiota. I want to get that up and running too.

Nice, what are you getting? I've listened to some of that podcast and tried to read some of the presentation slides but I'm struggling a bit to get my head around it, are there a list of detox related supplements they recommend trying?

I also wonder about my symptoms when I wake. Even on days where I feel somewhat better, I wake with a pretty bad sickness.

Yep I'm at my worst just after waking too. I read the liver does much of its detox work whilst we sleep so that might be a reason.

but at the same time it's pretty damn difficult working out what's going on with an illness that's caused by an infection in the sinuses that the immune system doesn't seem to know about but it's only making you sick because the gut won't finish what the liver started and your brain hurts for some reason.

For sure. If mine does turn out to be mould in my sinuses there have been basically zero clues, I don't have any breathing symptoms or anything, & because of this I don't feel too much irritation towards the doctors.

 

[seamyb]

So I'm getting

For the gut:

• Inulin
• Psyllium Husk
• Green Banana Flour (resistant starch)
• Organic Prebiotic Fiber Supplement (just a mix of fibers to hopefully feed a wide range of bacteria)

For the bile and liver:

• Organic Sunflower Lecithin Phospholipid Complex Powder - 25% Phosphatidylcholine
• Calcium D-Gluarate (this inhibits the enzyme beta-glucuronidase which is made by gut bacteria and cleaves the glucuronic acid from toxins released by the liver in the bile (glucuronic acid is what liver glucuronidation attaches to the toxin) allowing them to recirculate). I kinda bought this one in a frenzy of buying anything that came up in reading.
• Broccoli Sprout Extract | 100mg Sulforaphane per Serving. This is what the woman in the podcast suggests for bile. But actually it seems to serve a number of benefits like improving sulfation and glutathione production in the liver.

I also have the amino acids involved in conjugation which I want to get started on. Think I'll start the fiber and sulforaphane first though.

 

[hb8847]

This is great thanks.

 

[seamyb]

I've just found more resources and a differing approach to all this from Dr Andrew Heyman.

Here's a video (actually a set of videos, just find the subsequent ones) that is definitely worth a watch:

and a page of notes by the same guy:

http://biotoxinjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/Dr. Heyman/Dr. Heyman BioJ Notes.pdf

But some of it completely disagrees with Nathan. For example, he says that Cholestyramine is a good binder because it's positively charged, but that charcoal and clay etc aren't because they're negatively charged... This to me doesn't seem to make sense because it's assuming that the toxin is negatively charged.

However, some of what he says might apply. It's a detailed explanation of Shoemaker's CIRS. His protocol is different from Shoemaker's but I found the explanation very interesting.

I bought a few more things because of this.

I got Korean red ginseng because it contains a chemical called rg3 which apparently reverses some of the problems in the brain. It also reduces the microglial inflammation in the brain, which Heyman seems to think is key. Korean red is a different plant from other types of Ginseng. It would be better to get the isolated rg3 but I can't find it.

I got fish oils (omega 3,6,9) because Heyman says an important first step is to replenish cellular lipid profile. This is done with the fatty acids and phosphatidycholine. He seems to explain what Nathan just asserted, regarding PC.

He seems to think that before detox can go ahead, the inflammatory response must be quashed. So he seems at odds with Nathan's just start low. However, the PC for sensitive patients does seem to agree. There is a supplement he recommends for modulating the immune response - Pro-Resolving Mediators. These are very expensive, so I have not bought any. But I can't help but feel they're useful.

Anyway, it complicates the picture, but when you're stuck like we are, maybe we're looking at it too simplistically and complication is good.

Edit: I meant to link the fist part of his video lectures. It should be found easily from this one though.

 

[hb8847]

This is really great @seamyb thanks.

Anyway, it complicates the picture, but when you're stuck like we are, maybe we're looking at it too simplistically and complication is good.

Yeh you're probably right but it's so draining, I get down thinking of how complicated my health situation evidently is, the more things I need to add the less likely it seems I'll happen upon whatever magic formula I need to recover. It still seems ridiculous to me that if I have a mould problem I can't just hammer it out with antifungals, and that I need to first build myself up with binders, oh no actually I can't even tolerate that, I first need to go to PC, etc etc etc.

But some of it completely disagrees with Nathan. For example, he says that Cholestyramine is a good binder because it's positively charged, but that charcoal and clay etc aren't because they're negatively charged... This to me doesn't seem to make sense because it's assuming that the toxin is negatively charged.

Yes this doesn't sound like it makes too much sense to me, there are so many studies which show things like Bentonite and Charcoal being effective for mycotoxins... Also why would you get such a heavy Herx reaction if it wasn't binding stuff? I'm pretty dubious about this one I have to say.

I got fish oils (omega 3,6,9) because Heyman says an important first step is to replenish cellular lipid profile. This is done with the fatty acids and phosphatidycholine. He seems to explain what Nathan just asserted, regarding PC.

Interesting that more people are mentioning this. I also just heard back from another doctor about the importance of PC and getting the liver functioning properly. Frustratingly I don't seem to be able to tolerate fish oils but the PC seems to go OK, so long as I limit the amount - I did one capsule on one day and it went fine, but then cleverly did 2 the following day and it wiped me out. But I'm glad I at least seem to be able to tolerate it in small doses - I imagine I'll have to build up very slowly with it just like with binders.

He seems to think that before detox can go ahead, the inflammatory response must be quashed.

But like, how? Surely the whole catch 22 is the toxins are causing the immune response, so if you could quell the immune response first you wouldn't have any illness? Think I'll have to watch this video.

 

[seamyb]

It still seems ridiculous to me that if I have a mould problem I can't just hammer it out with antifungals, and that I need to first build myself up with binders, oh no actually I can't even tolerate that, I first need to go to PC, etc etc etc.

Yea. To get rid of the mold in the sinuses takes months. And that's months of herxing. So that's why I thought I'll try it this way. But I'm months into this and I'm not much further along. So would my herxes be less by now?

Dunno. Think it's probably worth doing it this way. If I'm right, I've had this infection for years before it made me ill. So the day-to-day release of toxins isn't what is significant. It's the overall load I've acquired through enterohepatic recirculation. Obviously need to stop it at the source too, but I'm hoping I can begin to get well before that.

Also why would you get such a heavy Herx reaction if it wasn't binding stuff? I'm pretty dubious about this one I have to say.

Yea I'm dubious myself. He talks as if it's one known toxin. But it did unsettle me for a bit because I thought what if our bad reactions aren't a negative side to something good... what if we're just repelling the toxins and unsettling them... But then again you're bound to eat many things with a net negative charge that don't have that effect, so it must be more than the charge.

Frustratingly I don't seem to be able to tolerate fish oils but the PC seems to go OK, so long as I limit the amount

You could try flax-seed oil? Pros: they have a better ratio of omega 3 to 6. Cons: apparently they can go off easier.

But I'm glad I at least seem to be able to tolerate it in small doses

I heard one person talking about their experience with mold illness and PC. They said it was something they loved taking because it made them feel great. I'm up to 0.1 gram and haven't really felt anything good or bad. I'm just hoping it makes me more stable for the binders... and I did take a tiny bit of charcoal last night and don't seem to be any worse today. Here's hoping.

But like, how? Surely the whole catch 22 is the toxins are causing the immune response, so if you could quell the immune response first you wouldn't have any illness? Think I'll have to watch this video.

Well anything that dampens the immune response will be of benefit while you're getting rid of the source. The main unease I have with the videos I sent is that he treats with things for which he says he can't find a "natural" alternative, i.e. one that doesn't require a prescription. Things like VIP nasal spray. Good luck getting that from your NHS doctor.

 

[hb8847]

Is there any data on people getting a Herx from PC? Or glutathione?

I've taken a few capsules of PC like I mentioned in my last post, and it seems to have triggered a reaction, but this reaction feels to me like more of a Herx-type one than some of the other reactions I get from things like some foods or supplements. Also the fact that it didn't hit me when I'd taken one but only after doing a couple more the next day...

It also reminds me of the response I had to glutathione - it was very mixed, felt like it help some elements of the Herx whilst worsening others.

If these things can give you a Herx, I'm wondering what the mechanism might be for why. Might it be something to do with it triggering the body to mobilise more toxins? And presumably that then has an implication for when you start binders, I assume it can't really be in conjunction because then it would just bring on the Herx a lot quicker. Perhaps it's different for different people.

 

[seamyb]

I haven't seen anything about negative reactions apart from what's in Toxic...

I know very little about PC, but apparently it's meant to heal your cell membranes... I really have no idea how this would result in exacerbation.

I've started very low on PC. I'm currently feeling a bit crap but I started tiny amounts of charcoal again. Think I'm changing too many things at once, but I can be fairly sure it's the charcoal making me feel crap. I actually felt good for two days after taking it and then the 3rd day was bad. There is no amount of it that doesn't make me feel like crap, but there have been a few occasions I've felt a bit better after it. It takes away muscle pain and air hunger. I'm at a loss.

 

[seamyb]

Just read this

http://biotoxinjourney.com/binders-2/

This guy is saying the same thing about cholestyramine, i.e. that it's the only one that works (although welchol does too, but less effectively).

Regardless, he says that when he had a bad reaction, he would stop and take omega fatty oils for 30 days and then start low again. Apparently high MMP9 is related to the bad reactions.

 

[hb8847]

I know very little about PC, but apparently it's meant to heal your cell membranes... I really have no idea how this would result in exacerbation.

Presumably the same mechanism that would result in an exacerbation from things like glutathione. They're both detoxifiers after all, both liver supplements that could speed up the process of detoxifying and possibly trigger the body to release more toxins into the blood stream? I seem to be coming out of it now and it definitely feels like a mini-Herx I've been having rather than a direct reaction to the PC which would have been more immediate and shorter lasting.

I've started very low on PC. I'm currently feeling a bit crap but I started tiny amounts of charcoal again. Think I'm changing too many things at once, but I can be fairly sure it's the charcoal making me feel crap. I actually felt good for two days after taking it and then the 3rd day was bad. There is no amount of it that doesn't make me feel like crap, but there have been a few occasions I've felt a bit better after it. It takes away muscle pain and air hunger. I'm at a loss.

Yeh my plan right now is to build it up slowly if I can, then only once I have that established (and can notice the effects of doing too much) I'll try to get back onto the binders, again super slowly. Getting the bile flow working prior to binders is something that does make sense to me so I'm keen to give this a proper shot, and even if I don't recover I imagine PC is a pretty good thing to be putting into your body.

This guy is saying the same thing about cholestyramine, i.e. that it's the only one that works (although welchol does too, but less effectively).

I've just had a read of some of his stuff - he says there are no records of people recovering with other binders, which I have some trouble believing because there are so many studies on various binders being effective with mycotoxins (such as here and here) and because so many doctors have claimed to use them with success. I've also not read any rationale for why they wouldn't work, charcoal is used widely as a detoxifier in poisoned patients for example and its use is non-controversial.

Plus the issue with Welchol and Cholestyramine is they're prescription meds for cholesterol levels, and so presumably carry more risks (and hurdles to get them in the first place) than natural stuff like Bentonite. (There could also be an element of drug-companies pushing the use of prescription meds because they can't make any money from sick patients curing themselves with charcoal and bentonite, but given there's no evidence of that I'm assuming it's not the case.) If after a while of trying the natural stuff I'm not getting anywhere I'll probably consider it but it'll probably have to be in conjunction with a doctor because of the regular testing & risks involved, which sounds pretty arduous.

 

[hb8847]

So I was reading up about sauna therapy, and came across this on the a Great Plains Laboratory article:

The lipophilic, toxic compounds that find their way to the GI tract should ideally be flushed out through fecal elimination. To ensure the greatest possible chance for this to occur, patients should first and foremost be eliminating bowels every day.

To prevent the reabsorbtion of these compounds, bile acid sequesterants and binders can be used and there is evidence to support their use. Bile acid sequesterants are just that - agents that sequester the bile, essentially making it unavailable to bind with other lipids. The prescriptive agent that is most commonly used is called cholestyramine. This agent has a very short half life (6 minutes) and is capable of binding up to 80% of bile in that short time. This short half life also means that taking cholestyramine before sauna will not interfere with the absorption of nutrients at meal time. This is an excellent choice for patients who can tolerate this prescription.

Fiber is also capable of binding bile acid, but to a lesser extent. Both soluble and insoluble fibers like lignan, alfalfa, bran, and guar can bind between 10%-30% of bile acids. Cellulose does not effectively bind with bile, so it should not be considered as an option for this particular application.

Binders are agents that prevent reabsorbtion by adhering to the toxin itself. Examples of binding agents are bentonite clay and activated charcoal. GI elimination is the only way for the extremely lipophilic, toxic compounds to be eliminated. When doing sauna therapy, any toxic compound in tissue has the potential to be eliminated, so taking these measures to ensure proper elimination via stool is important.

It seems that binders like Cholestyramine (bile acid sequesterants) are fundamentally different from ones like Bentonite - the former actually bind to the bile itself, preventing its reabsorption, whereas the latter just bind to the toxins.

This maybe gives some evidence to why some doctors claim the Cholestyramine is the one you want, rather than the Bentonite type. I also wonder if this type of bile-acid binding might reduce the possibility of a Herx reaction? If they're not interacting with toxins but just the bile that contains them, then presumably you wouldn't get the "binders displaced like a magnet with filings" mechanism by the other binders? It's definitely something I'm going to be looking into a bit more now.

By the way the upshot of the article was that saunas can help but they also trigger the release of a lot of toxins into the bloodstream, so it's imperative to have proper detox pathways up and running in advance, which probably rules that out for me for the time being.

 

[hb8847]

And here is the section on Cholestyramine from Dr Nathan's book. I've highlighted in bold some of the relevant points:

Let’s go into Dr. Shoemaker’s protocol in more detail.

The initial dosage of cholestyramine is one scoop (4 grams, which is the equivalent of 12 / 3 teaspoons) four times a day. The timing matters, although it can be difficult to orchestrate. For optimal benefit, cholestyramine should be taken half an hour before a meal (with fat in the meal encouraged), and then the patient must wait another ninety minutes before taking any other supplement or medication, keeping in mind that cholestyramine is a strong binder and may interfere with the absorption of other materials if taken concurrently. Welchol works taken the same way, with the usual dosage being two capsules (625 milligrams each) three times a day.
Although cholestyramine is available by prescription from any pharmacy, the forms available from most pharmacies are not in line with the recommended treatment for mold toxicity. Questran comes in powdered form and contains a large amount of sugar. It is also available sweetened with Splenda or NutraSweet (which I do not encourage either). If cholestyramine is to be used, it should be obtained from a compounding pharmacy so that it is much purer and more in line with treatment. Giving sugar, as you might expect, would literally “feed” the mold and other microbes growing in the gut and therefore be contraindicated. Unfortunately, compounded cholestyramine can be expensive and is not always covered by insurance, adding to the cost of treatment.

So basically it's very important with Cholestyramine to get the compounded variety that doesn't contain additives, particularly for mould patients for whom additives might actively feed the mould. But this variety is hard to get hold of and expensive to boot. Ideal.

Although cholestyramine has very few side effects, they include constipation, heartburn, and dyspepsia. Of these, constipation is the biggest concern; holding toxins in the intestinal tract for long periods clearly is not a good idea. Magnesium and vitamin C are the primary tools for working with this side effect.

Regarding taking magnesium for constipation, I've read elsewhere that this can be problematic for people taking charcoal, because the charcoal can bind to electrolytes, and so taking a big load of magnesium (a type of electrolyte) concurrently could cause potentially serious imbalances, as mentioned here. This seems like a pretty bad oversight by Dr Nathan and I'd be concerned about running the same risk with Cholestyramine.

If a reaction to cholestyramine does occur, especially if it appears to be an exacerbation of the patient’s current symptoms (patients often describe it as “like a Herx”), it indicates that the binder has pulled toxins into the patient’s body faster than his or her compromised detoxification systems can clear them. As I emphasize throughout this book, this outcome is not helpful and must be carefully monitored. Any increase in toxicity will result in a worsening of the patient’s condition, and the patient cannot push his or her way through an increase in toxicity successfully .

When I began this work under the tutelage of Dr. Shoemaker, I discovered that many of my patients seemed to be somewhat more complicated than those he saw. His patient population seemed to be more, if you will, “pure mold.” Although I saw some of these kinds of patients initially, my patients tended to present with Lyme disease, Lyme co- infections, other biochemical perturbations, and mold toxicity. Many of these individuals were much more sensitive on every level to what they put in their bodies, and the majority could not take the doses of medication recommended by Dr. Shoemaker without being set back and made worse.

“I cannot emphasize this enough: If some is good, more may not be better.”

For example, I have had very few patients who are able to take more than 1 or 2 teaspoons of cholestyramine a day. In fact, most of my patients must start with 1 / 16 or 1 / 8 teaspoon every other day in order to avoid provoking a setback. Once we determine a dosage that a patient can take comfortably, we increase it very slowly until we find a dosage that causes an exacerbation of symptoms, at which point we back off. I must stress that despite the best intentions to “fight through the side effects,” this strategy does not work. Over time, the patient will simply become more toxic, and it may take weeks or months to get back to baseline. I cannot emphasize this enough: If some is good, more may not be better.

For those who are concerned about their inability to tolerate “normal” doses, it may be helpful to know that even minuscule doses of binders work well over time. I have had patients recover completely using just 1 / 16 teaspoon of cholestyramine every third day and half a tablet of chlorella (a type of freshwater algae commonly used as a binder for certain mycotoxins) every other day.

Often my patients question me: “Really, Neil, you think that pathetic dose is going to work?” And the answer is yes, it does, but they have to be patient with their bodies. An important concept here that many of my patients take months to grasp is: Please listen to your body. It will clearly tell you how much it can handle . If you ignore what your body is telling you, it will not go well. The flip side of sensitivity is responsiveness. The good news is that my experience has shown me that sensitive patients usually respond well to minuscule dosages as long as we are careful not to overdo it.

With cholestyramine as the mainstay of the binder component of his program, Dr. Shoemaker reports that many of his patients do great using just the binders and removing themselves from moldy environments. However, he discovered that commensurable bacteria growing in the sinus area, nicknamed MARCoNS (Multiple Antibiotic-Resistant Coagulase Negative Staphylococci), may prevent full recovery if not addressed at this stage. He cultures for these bacteria using a nasal swab and treats those patients who test positive with a combination of nasal sprays and antibiotics.

So it sounds like patients get Herxes from Cholestyramine just as they do from binders like Bentonite. So perhaps given all this it's not worth going down this route if you're just as likely to Herx anyway.

 

[hb8847]

Well to close off this ramble I've gone and bought some Cholestyramine - I was unable to find any "pure resin" compounded variety as is recommended, but beggars can't be choosers. And I did it without prescription from one of the online pharmacies recommended on PR, think they're called Goldpharma. I'll report back if anything significant happens.

 

[seamyb]

I seem to be coming out of it now and it definitely feels like a mini-Herx I've been having rather than a direct reaction to the PC which would have been more immediate and shorter lasting.

How much PC were you taking? I take about 100mg with no issues so far.

If they're not interacting with toxins but just the bile that contains them, then presumably you wouldn't get the "binders displaced like a magnet with filings" mechanism by the other binders

See, I'm not certain that's the reason for the exacerbation. It's possible, but I think it's also possible that you reduce recirculation, hence blood concentration of toxins, hence more get released into blood.

I'm leaning slightly toward the latter because of the delay in exacerbation, although I've no real clue as to how long either would take.

I know when I herx off antifungals in the nose, it happens hours later rather than days.

Well to close off this ramble I've gone and bought some Cholestyramine

Haha, this illness brings out the compulsive shopper in us.

Apparently okra does the same job as cholestyramine but only has 10-20% of the binding capacity. I wonder would this be any good for reducing exacerbation.

 

[hb8847]

How much PC were you taking? I take about 100mg with no issues so far.

Hmm I was taking it in capsules of 420mg, and I did 3 capsules over 2 days. So perhaps waaaay too much :/

I wasn't aware you could get it in smaller amounts, how are you taking it?

See, I'm not certain that's the reason for the exacerbation. It's possible, but I think it's also possible that you reduce recirculation, hence blood concentration of toxins, hence more get released into blood.

Yes I've just read this theory on Shoemakers website, he talks about it in relation to Cholestyramine. What I don't understand about this mechanism is, and I've touched on this before, why would you not feel better after the Herx eventually passes? Because ultimately you just have less toxins in the body? Whereas Dr Nathan goes on and on about how Herxing wont help you.

Another thing about this theory is that it's presumably the same as what would trigger a reaction from other supplements like Glutathione or even PC, if what they're doing is speeding up the detox process and triggering your cells to release more toxins into the blood? Which might explain why I'm still feeling like I'm Herxing now, even though all I've done the last 6 weeks has been on-off bouts with glutathione or PC....