Multiple binders

[seamyb]

I wasn't aware you could get it in smaller amounts, how are you taking it?

I have a big bag of powder ad just make my own capsules. Also have mg level scales.

I don't take a full capsule of anything without testing it with a small amount. Even the fish oil softgels I have, I punctured a hole in the softgel and poured it into a capsule. I always build up in case I cause myself hell.

why would you not feel better after the Herx eventually passes?

Using manageable numbers here, say your blood keeps the level at 20 toxins. You have a source somewhere that adds, say, 5 toxins everyday. Because you're recirculating, you're just adding this to your blood every day and it has nowhere to go except your cells. You could be binding 10 toxins in the gut, hell you could even bind the full 20. 20 toxins can go into the gut from the blood, the blood is now empty and the cells release more, but they all experience the low concentration at the same time and aren't coordinating the response. So your blood temporarily goes up beyond the 20 it prefers. You're very sick.

Maybe it went to 40, 60 or 80 and all that came out of your cells. But even if you bind another 20, there's possibly still some toxins with nowhere to go but into new cells. These cells haven't accustomed themselves to the toxin. You feel worse.

You let it all die down. But what's your total load in the cells? If it's 200, then yea maybe you feel a bit better. If it's 2,000,000 you haven't even touched the surface. And not to mention that you're still adding 5 every day from your source.

Play around with these numbers and there are many, many parameter sets which lead to not feeling better after doing this for a few months. And we aren't doing it aggressively because of the exacerbation.

Of course, this is a speculative model. I still don't even know what causes symptoms. Is it the toxins themselves or the inflammatory response?

 

[hb8847]

I have a big bag of powder ad just make my own capsules. Also have mg level scales.

Mind me asking what brand you're taking?

And yes I usually go very slow with stuff, I remember the first time I took glutathione I was doing a droplet, then putting that drop into a full glass, and then taking a drop of that, and I was still reacting! For some reason I didn't with the PC, probably naive of me, I just assumed it wasn't that strong a supplement.

Using manageable numbers here, say your blood keeps the level at 20 toxins. You have a source somewhere that adds, say, 5 toxins everyday. Because you're recirculating, you're just adding this to your blood every day and it has nowhere to go except your cells. You could be binding 10 toxins in the gut, hell you could even bind the full 20. 20 toxins can go into the gut from the blood, the blood is now empty and the cells release more, but they all experience the low concentration at the same time and aren't coordinating the response. So your blood temporarily goes up beyond the 20 it prefers. You're very sick.

Good explanation, but it also assumes you only feel sick from the toxic load in your blood rather than the stuff in the cells too? Are we sure that's the case? Although I guess it does explain why you might feel sicker after doing sauna therapy or things like Glutathione, because why else would glutathione make you Herx (which I'm pretty convinced it does) if it didn't trigger the cells to release more toxins. I can't help but feel we're feeling around in the dark with this, it would help to have a clearer idea of the biological mechanism going on.

Another thing - I had a preliminary appointment with a doctor today who said something interesting that I wasn't aware of, which is that presence of mould or fungus in the gut or elsewhere for a long period of time can increase your sensitivity to said mould, and that sensitivity can then transfer over to other things (so, foods, chemicals, etc). Which could explain how one's sensitivity to things worsens over time even if your overall toxic load doesn't, which I think has happened to me (my food sensitivities worsened considerably even after using antifungals successfully for a long time).

Another thing she mentioned is that gut health is paramount in keeping things like mould at bay, and diet is crucial in maintaining gut health. So, even if you manage to take antifungals and rid yourself of mould in say, the sinuses, if the gut isn't in a good state then it's likely some of the mould will be able to find a home there.

Regarding me specifically she said my sensitivity to things was so bad that it would likely hinder many therapies she usually suggests for similar patients, and that step one would be some form of reducing immune system sensitivity, although I'm not sure what that would entail and how successful it would be.

 

[seamyb]

Mind me asking what brand you're taking?

not at all

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08J8DJM4S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

it also assumes you only feel sick from the toxic load in your blood rather than the stuff in the cells too? Are we sure that's the case?

Not one bit sure, no. But I think it would make sense from casual observation. It assumes a lot which could be completely false. Being in the blood may mean it gets to the brain, which otherwise gets rid of it pretty quickly. Heyman's description of a brain on fire really describes my exacerbations very well. It may trigger the immune system easier in the blood.

which is that presence of mould or fungus in the gut or elsewhere for a long period of time can increase your sensitivity to said mould

Yea this is a worry, but one I'm ignoring for the time being. I don't suspect I have this, because I take cumin extract which is antifungal and I have not herxed from it. Quite the opposite. The S. Boullardii is meant to be effective at getting rid of gut candida, so that puts my mind slightly at ease.

Another thing she mentioned is that gut health is paramount in keeping things like mould at bay, and diet is crucial in maintaining gut health

Yea, I'm trying a lot of things for the gut now. Lots of fibers. I can't bring myself to quit sugar or change my diet though. For a start I'm ill and it's difficult and also, I'm a creature of habit.

Regarding me specifically she said my sensitivity to things was so bad that it would likely hinder many therapies she usually suggests for similar patients, and that step one would be some form of reducing immune system sensitivity, although I'm not sure what that would entail and how successful it would be.

Well this is interesting. I imagine she's not NHS? You seem to have an MCAS issue too, which I don't think I do. I think my weird reactions (air hunger) are specific reactions to a certain process, maybe antioxidant action. But then there's the inflammatory response which may be behind the core symptom exacerbations. This is an immune reaction too. So hopefully, you see improvements on all fronts with whatever she throws at you. Definitely keep us posted on what she's saying.

I'm hoping the omega fatty acids will settle my exacerbation symptoms by settling the immune system. Might quit the charcoal again and do them for a month and retry.

 

[seamyb]

I seem to be handling charcoal well now. There are a few possible reasons for this.

• I'm taking tiny amounts (although, I had been taking tiny amounts before and these caused exacerbations. But I have been trying to keep it to very low amounts.) I will increase later but for now I will keep at it.
• Phosphatidylcholine and/or omega 3,6,9. These have been reported to stop exacerbations. And my tolerance of charcoal has come very soon after I started taking these.
• Increased fiber - I have been taking inulin, psyllium husk and resistant starch. My BMs are more frequent.
• S. Boullardii - I have been taking this for a month or two now.

I think it's the 2nd bullet point which has done it. I feel pretty good right now and seem to be improving. I'm taking charcoal every 3 days but will try and move it to every other day soon, still in small amounts.

I'm daring to have hope here. I'm fucking daring!

 

[hb8847]

Great to hear my friend, hope it continues. I'm currently taking a break from all things binders for now, I'm doing Phosphatidylcholine once every 3 or so days which I seem to be able to handle OK.

 

[Lalia]

@Lalia, your comments are very timely. I've been chewing them around all day and doing so has sent me down some interesting rabbit holes. I've spent over £100 as a result so thanks for that

No worries at all, I do enjoy a good supplement shopping spree.

Just catching up on this thread and really, really pleased to hear the PC may be helping you tolerate charcoal. Sorry for the TMI but did it change your gut symptoms or stools at all? I ask because there's a very clear correlation in me, between the burden on my liver and my GI symptoms.

Great to hear about the prebiotics too, my gut is so sensitive I just don't tolerate even tiny amounts of these.

I'm contemplating trying TUDCA next but still humming and hahhing after my last relapse.

I've been loitering around PR since 2018, but don't post super regularly. If you ever have a question that you think I can help with, feel free to tag me though! Look forward to hearing more about the PC.

 

[Lalia]

This is really interesting, thanks @Lalia .

To be honest this all sounds exactly like what's going on with me. And yes it makes sense that if the bile detox pathway isn't working properly then binders won't do a whole lot of good either.



You've seen Dr Nathan himself? Do you mind me asking about this, how long for, what for specifically, was he helpful? Did he recommend any other detox related supplements?

Also is "PC" phosphatidylcholine? In the past it has done some weird things to me but I might try again now.

@seamyb has the S Boulardii made any difference? I'm still struggling on with glutathione, still haven't gone back to binders yet and thinking of reaching out to doctors.

Sorry about the slow reply @hb8847! Yes, I saw Dr Nathan via zoom over a two year period, on three occasions. He requires your integrative GP to attend the appointments. I found Nathan to be quite good but my GP wasn't on the ball, so it was really hard to implement the things Nathan recommended. He kinda gives you a high level overview of things that could be helpful, and then it's up to your GP to help you put that into practice. My GP wasn't doing that which was super frustrating. I'm also very complex (aren't we all) and super sensitive, so I don't fully blame my GP, but it was still disappointing.

Other detox related supps he recommended: Resveratrol and curcumin. He was a big advocate for IV phosphatidylcholine for detox. Other than that he really emphasised binders and anti-fungals. I get the impression, that just like all the big name doctors, he has a limited set of tools in his toolkit.

The one thing he recommended that I haven't tried yet is the focus on getting the bile moving. Which is why I'm so curious about PC and TUDCA at the moment. Hope you're having some luck with the things you're trying!

 

[hb8847]

No worries @Lalia , thanks for getting back to me!

Other detox related supps he recommended: Resveratrol and curcumin. He was a big advocate for IV phosphatidylcholine for detox.

Thanks for this. I've been taking PC 420mg once every 3 days, I seem to tolerate it OK, but if I take it any more frequently I start reacting badly to it. Which is weird - it's almost like the situation with the binders where the reaction is delayed, and makes me wonder whether the reaction is to the PC itself or it's a Herx, although I'm not even sure you can get them from PC? Anyway I'm just glad I can tolerate the amount I'm taking now.

Sorry about the slow reply @hb8847! Yes, I saw Dr Nathan via zoom over a two year period, on three occasions. He requires your integrative GP to attend the appointments. I found Nathan to be quite good but my GP wasn't on the ball, so it was really hard to implement the things Nathan recommended. He kinda gives you a high level overview of things that could be helpful, and then it's up to your GP to help you put that into practice. My GP wasn't doing that which was super frustrating.

That's a shame your doctor wasn't up to scratch. It sounds to me like most of what you could glean from Dr Nathan could be read about in his book? I imagine he'd probably say the same to me; binders then antifungals. It's interesting he talked so much about bile and PC, I wonder if these additions he's only learnt about since writing it. Seems a pretty important topic...

I'm also a tad concerned that these doctors that are so specialised in one area are prone to seeing everything as related to their field. Like, "to a hammer everything looks like a nail" sort of thing. But then I also trust when he says he's treated many people successfully with this method, as with Shoemaker and Brewer, although all their methods seem slightly different.

My GP wasn't doing that which was super frustrating. I'm also very complex (aren't we all) and super sensitive, so I don't fully blame my GP, but it was still disappointing.

I am too, ridiculously so. There are only like two or 3 foods I can tolerate, and medications and supplements are also problematic which makes any sort of intervention so difficult. I read a passage in Nathan's book where he talks about extremely sensitive patients, so it makes me think this is very common with these types of illnesses (mould, lyme, etc), and I spoke to a mould specialist here in the UK about a week ago who basically said that repeated exposure to mould toxins can increase your sensitivity over time, both to the mould and to other things (foods, chemicals, etc).

Regarding this, Nathan mentions something interesting (and probably controversial) in the book, namely that his most sensitive patients usually respond well to something called "neural retraining". It's basically like meditation and other brain related stuff intended to calm down the nervous system. I'm very skeptical about this type of stuff for CFS but Nathan's endorsement made me reconsider (as well as the fact I've tried literally everything else with no success). I wonder if you've heard about it or considered trying it? I've been doing it for about a week and no change so far, but really hoping it might do something.

Phosphatidylcholine and/or omega 3,6,9. These have been reported to stop exacerbations. And my tolerance of charcoal has come very soon after I started taking these.

@seamyb What sort of doses are you taking of PC? Have you been able to up it at all? It's encouraging you're feeling better even if it's still on the low dose, maybe it means I wouldn't have to increase it before reintroducing binders? I'm thinking of starting bentonite at a low amount again (for lack of a better idea of what the f*** to try now).

And are you still doing charcoal? And not reacting? That sounds like a pretty amazing improvement if so.

 

[seamyb]

What sort of doses are you taking of PC?

I started on about 100mg of that sunflower lecithin I linked you. Think it's like 25% PC? But I've now upped it a bit without weighing it, I'm just filling up the capsule more, pressing it down and topping it up. I'm not sure of the exact dose. I'll weigh the next one out and let you know.

And are you still doing charcoal? And not reacting?

I will need a bit longer to answer the last part objectively. Last night was the first dose I took with only a day gap in between. I'm not completely symptom free, but I've been very mild and have so far had no worsening from the charcoal after a good few doses. These have been very low doses.

Yesterday and today I felt a bit worse than I have recently. It wasn't enough to start taking cumin to alleviate it, but it was noticeably a blip in my improvement.

I worried a bit that maybe my improvement was from the ginseng, which also caused severe heart palpitations. There's a recent thread on here about a study that showed ginseng to cause improvements in ME. I last took it a week ago, so maybe it's not. I only had an hour today of feeling a bit sick and I appear to be fine again now.

I think I reacted to either PC or the omega fatty acids. This was a bad case of air hunger one of the days I took them together. Didn't last very long and it was only the once. I've been taking them every day.

I'm still seeing this as a marathon. I'm expecting setbacks and any improvement to be non-linear. But there's hope I think. I've been doing better recently, even with charcoal.

 

[seamyb]

Sorry for the TMI but did it change your gut symptoms or stools at all? I ask because there's a very clear correlation in me, between the burden on my liver and my GI symptoms.

Not that I've noticed, but I started taking the prebiotics at the same time and these are definitely doing something to the gut. I'm going pretty slowly with the PC too, so any results I expect to see will be longer term...

I wonder about liposomal PC... If so many doctors are recommending IV PC, does that mean that not a great deal is absorbed orally? And therefore would liposomal be better?

 

[seamyb]

It could be the fatty acids (omega 3,6,9) which have been having the most effect.

I was taking these early in the day and changed to later in the day. This could be why a bit of illness started creeping in. I said I felt sick earlier, but when I took the fatty acids I felt better. And this is something I've heard a few people saying, that fatty acids stop the exacerbations.

Still, tomorrow and the next day will be telling. I'm due a good dose of horribleness, so if I don't get it then maybe I'm onto a winner.

 

[Lalia]

Not that I've noticed, but I started taking the prebiotics at the same time and these are definitely doing something to the gut. I'm going pretty slowly with the PC too, so any results I expect to see will be longer term...

I wonder about liposomal PC... If so many doctors are recommending IV PC, does that mean that not a great deal is absorbed orally? And therefore would liposomal be better?

From my notes - Nathan said the PC does two completely different things when taken liposomal vs IV. Liposomal helps with bile flow. IV helps with detoxification and healing the myelin sheaths.

If you respond well to liposomal PC, it may be worth finding out if you can get the IV version. Nathan was very keen on this & I know of one other person who used it in their mould illness regime & is now fully recovered (they weren’t super sensitive & were able to pay to go to one of those mould/lyme clinics in the states).

 

[Lalia]

No worries @Lalia , thanks for getting back to me! That's a shame your doctor wasn't up to scratch. It sounds to me like most of what you could glean from Dr Nathan could be read about in his book? I imagine he'd probably say the same to me; binders then antifungals. It's interesting he talked so much about bile and PC, I wonder if these additions he's only learnt about since writing it. Seems a pretty important topic...

I'm also a tad concerned that these doctors that are so specialised in one area are prone to seeing everything as related to their field. Like, "to a hammer everything looks like a nail" sort of thing. But then I also trust when he says he's treated many people successfully with this method, as with Shoemaker and Brewer, although all their methods seem slightly different.
I am too, ridiculously so. There are only like two or 3 foods I can tolerate, and medications and supplements are also problematic which makes any sort of intervention so difficult. I read a passage in Nathan's book where he talks about extremely sensitive patients, so it makes me think this is very common with these types of illnesses (mould, lyme, etc), and I spoke to a mould specialist here in the UK about a week ago who basically said that repeated exposure to mould toxins can increase your sensitivity over time, both to the mould and to other things (foods, chemicals, etc).

Regarding this, Nathan mentions something interesting (and probably controversial) in the book, namely that his most sensitive patients usually respond well to something called "neural retraining". It's basically like meditation and other brain related stuff intended to calm down the nervous system. I'm very skeptical about this type of stuff for CFS but Nathan's endorsement made me reconsider (as well as the fact I've tried literally everything else with no success). I wonder if you've heard about it or considered trying it? I've been doing it for about a week and no change so far, but really hoping it might do something.

I do think he personalizes each consult. There’s a lot in his book & it was helpful to get the “order” of things from him and to get his prioritization too.

Yes, I have ten foods. Any meat is fine, my ME is very autoimmune in nature so I think I’ve lost oral tolerance to everything, except meat. Supplements are a much bigger problem because I react really badly to these & drop weight when I do. The weight loss is obviously rate limiting. I have three shots left at finding a supplement to turn things around before I have to stop because of my weight.

Ah yes, the brain retraining. It was the first thing he recommended to me. I think he suggests it to almost everyone. I did Annie Hoppers back in 2019 and hated every minute of it. It’s just CBT for the alternative docs when they don’t know what’s wrong. Having said that I don’t dismiss the mind-body connection. It’s important & we are so stressed because of illness and that affects our nervous systems. I much preferred doing yoga for PTSD and my own meditation to Annie Hopper though. That woman makes me want to throw plates at the wall. She’s so condescending. In a nut, I don’t think brain retraining will help your physical symptoms but I do think balancing the nervous system is helpful overall.

 

[seamyb]

Nathan said the PC does two completely different things when taken liposomal vs IV. Liposomal helps with bile flow. IV helps with detoxification and healing the myelin sheaths.

This boggles the mind. If the liposomal enables better absorption, why wouldn't it have the same effect as the IV? Not expecting you to have the answer, just felt like it needed to be asked. Hopefully I can find a review paper on PC supplements that answers it.

I know of one other person who used it in their mould illness regime & is now fully recovered

OMG they exist?!! Excellent.

@hb8847 Do you suspect you're still exposed?

 

[hb8847]

Ah yes, the brain retraining. It was the first thing he recommended to me. I think he suggests it to almost everyone. I did Annie Hoppers back in 2019 and hated every minute of it. It’s just CBT for the alternative docs when they don’t know what’s wrong. Having said that I don’t dismiss the mind-body connection. It’s important & we are so stressed because of illness and that affects our nervous systems. I much preferred doing yoga for PTSD and my own meditation to Annie Hopper though. That woman makes me want to throw plates at the wall. She’s so condescending. In a nut, I don’t think brain retraining will help your physical symptoms but I do think balancing the nervous system is helpful overall.

Yes @Lalia , this is pretty much my take on it. I read a bit of Annie Hopper's spiel and knew instantly I'd loathe her and her program. The alternatives didn't seem much better but I bought Gupta's one anyway (also has a Neil Nathan recommendation quote on his site), and yes it basically seems like meditation interspersed with some "positive affirmation" stuff. It all feels very dubious to me, but frankly I'm pretty much out of options otherwise. I tested positive for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome last year and saw one of the foremost experts on it in the UK, and after a full year with him he was completely stumped because I was reacting to all his treatments.

I agree with you about meditation, I've done it on and off for years and I think it's a great thing to be doing even if it doesn't fix my sensitivities, so if there's anything I'm going to take away from the Gupta/DNRS nonsense it's just to do that much more regularly, but I've given up any hope that I can materially affect my immune or nervous system in that way. I do wonder why Dr Nathan is so pro it though, presumably he has had patients who it has helped? Which makes me think, were these patients fundamentally different to me, or is there actually a chance it might help? It's all very confusing.

Like, there is definitely science backing the theory that we can affect our nervous system through meditation - you can use it to reduce chronic pain, and theres all that Wim Hof stuff where patients were consciously able to affect their immune system though meditation and cold water therapy. I feel like if I could just like communicate to my immune system and tell it to calm the fuck down, that the food I'm eating is safe, and maybe even to stop reacting to mould itself, it would have such a huge impact on my health situation and I'd be able to take supplements and meds etc. I so want to believe...

 

[hb8847]

This boggles the mind. If the liposomal enables better absorption, why wouldn't it have the same effect as the IV?

Agreed. Surely IV just bypasses the gut, and unless digestion fundamentally alters the chemical composition of PC I'm not sure how they would perform different tasks. And wouldn't improving bile flow help with detox anyway? Maybe it's about the quantity of PC able to get through into the blood stream.

@hb8847 Do you suspect you're still exposed?

I'd be very surprised. My current place is a new build, and there's no mouldy smell or anything. Plus I've lived in about 5 different properties over the course of my illness and not noticed any improvement/worsening that correlates with moving between them. That said, I have lived in water damaged buildings in the past which I'm sure they probably contributed. My guess is it's an internal thing, somehow the mould or fungus has housed itself somewhere in my body releasing mycotoxins and over time these have made my immune system incredibly sensitive, both to it and also now pretty much anything I ingest (except things that don't get absorbed like binders, which suggests my immune cells that react are housed in my blood stream).

 

[seamyb]

I tested positive for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome last year and saw one of the foremost experts on it in the UK, and after a full year with him he was completely stumped because I was reacting to all his treatments.

I think I may have something going on which is weird and could be related.

So, if the fatty acids are what is causing me to be able tolerate the charcoal, I think the charcoal may be needed to tolerate the fatty acids.

When I got the air hunger from it the other day, I was 3 days away from a small dose of charcoal. Charcoal and other binders kept air hunger away from other things too, glutathione especially.

This would be a weird cyclic dependency. I need each to tolerate the other. Perhaps there is something similar going on with you?

And yea, the binders aren't being absorbed, so it could mean my air hunger is caused by immune activation in the gut.

My air hunger could correspond to some other symptom (or group thereof) you have.

 

[hb8847]

I think I may have something going on which is weird and could be related.

It wouldn't surprise me. I think so much stuff for these chronic conditions is related, hence why there are so many people on this site with 1) such similar symptoms and 2) such similar reactions to meds and supplements, even if we all differ slightly in areas, and probably whatever triggered our illness.

MCAS is apparently very common with mould illness, and common in CFS in general. As are food/chemical sensitivities. One classic symptom of MCAS is breathing difficulties and airwave constriction, as it's a precursor to anaphylaxis which MCAS can also trigger, so perhaps your air hunger symptom is a similar ballpark.

Even if it's not MCAS it's surely a sign of some sort of immune system trigger. And if you're Herxing from detox supplements, the obvious link is that whatever you're detoxing (eg mycotoxins or other biotoxins) is also sensitising your immune system to other harmless substances (binders, glutathione). It's what I've assumed to be the case for me anyway, and frankly by now I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case.

And yea, the binders aren't being absorbed, so it could mean my air hunger is caused by immune activation in the gut.

Yes, possibly. Mast Cells also exist in the gut so in theory it wouldn't need to be absorbed to be a trigger, and I imagine there are other immune cells there too that could well be triggered by anything passing through, regardless of whether it's absorbed into the blood.

 

[hb8847]

Just been re-reading bits of Dr Nathan's book, it seems he does mention PC. Also brings up some other detox strategies which might be useful so I'm pasting it here:

Detoxification Strategies

For some patients, detoxification might actually be Step 1 in the treatment process. Many patients come to me having been sick for so long without being diagnosed correctly that they are extremely toxic and sensitive. Some cannot begin any form of treatment until we address their ability to detoxify. I often start these patients on a group of supplements and other treatments designed to accomplish this task. While there are many such supplements on the market, I am going to share the ones that I have found to be the most effective.

I begin with a product from Beyond Balance called Tox-Ease GL, which helps specifically with the liver and GI tract, using one or two drops once or twice daily and working up slowly, as tolerated by the patient, to five to ten drops twice daily. Then I add two homeopathic materials from BioResource, called Itires and Renelix, again starting with one or two drops twice daily and working up to five to ten drops twice daily as tolerated.

One of my favorite treatments, especially for sensitive patients, is the use of intravenous phosphatidylcholine (discussed in more detail in Chapter 15 ). Really sensitive patients usually cannot tolerate the typical doses, which are 10 to 15 cc (two to three vials) intravenously. I start my ultrasensitive patients on 0.5 to 1.0 cc and then slowly work up to higher doses as tolerated. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (my age is showing with this analogy), even tiny doses of phosphatidylcholine run the risk of provoking an exacerbation unless we proceed with caution—as is the case with every other treatment I describe.

I have also found that the use of ozone can be beneficial. Ozone can be delivered in a variety of forms, including nasal insufflation, ear insufflation, by enema, and intravenously. The most useful forms for my patients have been nasal and ear insufflation.

Another promising treatment, developed by Ty Vincent, MD, is called low dose immunotherapy (LDI). A variety of materials have been used to decrease the inflammatory response and improve the function of the immune response to mold toxins and Bartonella, among many other possible insults to the body. I discuss these materials in more detail in Chapter 10 .

Another advance in the treatment of the immune system is the recent availability of Transfer Factor Enviro from Researched Nutritionals, designed to enhance the body’s ability to process Aspergillus, Penicillium, Fusarium, Cladosporium, and Candida.

Each of these treatments should be instituted slowly, one at a time, to carefully assess whether it is being well tolerated. Once a small dosage is seen to be well tolerated, the patient can move on to the next treatment.

Additional treatments that are often valuable at this stage include Epsom salt baths and infrared saunas (two or three times a week, carefully monitoring the duration of exposure; sensitive patients may be able to handle only ten to fifteen minutes at first, and I don’t advise going over thirty minutes at a time). Oil pulling, using an oil with a good “mouthfeel” like organic coconut oil or olive oil, can be helpful, too, starting at three to five minutes once a day and slowly working up to twenty minutes a day if possible. The use of the Beyond Balance product Mycoregen and the Byron White Formulas A-FNG also can help patients begin the process of improving immune response. (See Chapter 10 , which covers the immune system in more detail.)

The role of methylation, which is profoundly affected by mold toxins, in detoxification is discussed in Chapter 14 .

That last point about methylation is interesting - I react very badly to methylation supplements (like methylcobalamin (B12) and methylfolate, as well as other methylation promoting supplements, and glutathione is also a big factor in methylation, so this might be the reason why I'm sensitive to that too. Perhaps something to consider.

 

[Lalia]

This boggles the mind. If the liposomal enables better absorption, why wouldn't it have the same effect as the IV? Not expecting you to have the answer, just felt like it needed to be asked. Hopefully I can find a review paper on PC supplements that answers it.



OMG they exist?!! Excellent.

@hb8847 Do you suspect you're still exposed?

Yes, I met Carly a few years ago, here’s her story: https://amp.9news.com.au/article/5d4cb106-ad33-448c-863c-d478b942d704

She went to Sofia Health Clinic in the US. They did a few weeks of sauna, coffee enemas, IV glutathione, IV nutrients and IV Phosphatidylcholine. She continued w/ supps afterwards and is now fully recovered.

When I met her & she told me her story I remember thinking - I would never tolerate that kind of treatment