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Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy

JalapenoLuv

Senior Member
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299
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Only about 1% of cyanocobalamin is converted into methylcobalamin, so if methylcobalamin is what you want, it would be very inefficient to take cyanocobalamin.

False. You are getting your 1% from a questionable journal.
http://centraldrugsrx.com/doctorblo...ison-of-the-three-formulations-of-vitamin-b12

Bioavailability is approximately 25%.

http://www.drugs.com/ppa/cyanocobalamin-vitamin-b12.html

According to this source bioavailability for methycobalamine is 66%.

Ning, Y.-F. Z. (2008). Mecobalamin. Expert Opin. Investig. Drugs, (4):953-964.

Cost works out to be about the same for either form so there is no price advantage! The advantage of taking the cyanocobalamin is that you can titrate the dose easier. The methyl form is 2.5x strength.

Are you not aware of Professor Martin Pall's "NO/ONOO" theory, and the use of hydroxocobalamin to scavenge nitric oxide? See the following:

The only people I would recommend things to decrease nitric oxide would be those with orthostatic hypotension:

"Nitric oxide synthase
(NOS) - Blood pressure dysregulation in persons with tetraplegia may reflect increased vascular nitric oxide and suggests a novel treatment of hypotension using NOS inhibition in this population (Wecht, et al 2007).

Pall's treatment is detailed here
file:///C:/Users/Allen/Downloads/978-1-60741-493-3_ch2.pdf

And he sells a line of supplements
http://www.nutricology.com/Martin-Pall-Products-p-1-c-284.html

I can't do his program because:
  1. I don't have orthostatic hypotension.
  2. Many of the supplements he suggests are contraindicated for treating bartonella because the block apoptosis (milk thistle, alpha lipoic acid).
 

JalapenoLuv

Senior Member
Messages
299
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Problems arise form excess NO suppression.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/03/12/reducing-nitric-oxide.aspx

Possible Dangers of Suppressing Nitric Oxide

Any drug that is developed to suppress NO production, in the hope of treating COAG or any other condition, could have many adverse effects, due to the many functions of the neurotransmitter. For example, NO plays an important role in controlling feto-placental circulation during pregnancy (Izumi 96), making it's use during pregnancy potentially dangerous. Suppression of NO could theoretically cause other problems such as impotence or sexual dysfunction, elevated blood pressure, digestive disturbances, increased susceptibility to infection, and even increased risk of cancer
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
False. You are getting your 1% from a questionable journal.

If you are saying this 1% figure is false, that means you must have another figure from a more a more reputable or reliable source. Otherwise how would you know that the figure I provided is false. So perhaps you would be kind enough to cite your reliable source.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
@JalapenoLuv, at a 1% conversion rate, by taking cyanocobalamin you are simply are not going to get the same blood levels of methylcobalamin as you would if you took methylcobalamin in the first place. So if high doses of methylcobalamin are what you want, taking cyanocobalamin would be a very inefficient and expensive way to get this.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
I heard you the first time. And I don't believe your 1% figure is correct as stated above.

Well the reference for that 1% figure is the following paper:

Kelly, G. The Coenzyme Forms of Vitamin B12: Toward an Understanding of their Therapeutic Potential. Alternative Medicine Review 1997;2:459-471

Without seeing that paper, it is not possible to comment on how reliable that figure might be. But one thing is for sure: if you use 100% B12 methylcobalamin, then that's exactly what you are going to get.
 
Messages
21
@JalapenoLuv, why are you so militant about this? It honestly seems like you've invested in a lifetime's supply of Cyanocobalamin and are desperately trying to defend your decision as opposed to having buyer's remorse. You've hijacked my thread to throw out deconstructive passive aggressive opinions about my alternative method for b12 therapy such as "it's preferable to just go with the 5,000mcg tablets and skip all the hassle with atomizers". While I'm just trying to share my experience and my experiment with those of you who may find it useful. I RARELY go out of my way to go on to forums, register, go through all of the monotony, just to give away free knowledge that I've obtained from schooling, research and experimentation. If you were all I had to welcome me then I wouldn't be doing it again.

How do you know it's a hassle? Have you tried it? It's actually incredibly simple and WAY less of a hassle than taking anything sublingually. Seriously, who wants to shove 15 5000mcg pills in their upper lip each day? An atomizer takes literally 5 seconds for a quick inhale. Of course I do more inhales than just one throughout the day but you have complete control over it with instant results. And if I find a more concentrated source of MB12 in water then I could get it down to one inhale. I'm contemplating evaporating the water based one I've purchased in a dark room and then seeing how dissolvable mb12 is in either Vegetable Glycerin or Propylene Glycol. If I do my entire half tank non-stop it would probably take me 5 minutes. Since I need to inhale, hold, then slowly exhale over and over. I do this while working on my computer, not a hassle in the slightest.

Do you know what intrinsic factor is? It's the protein used to absorb b12 from the stomach. From the sounds of it you don't have an issue with intrinsic factor since the majority of your b12 is being absorbed in your gut if it's truly as effective as you claim it is. For those of us that do have issues with intrinsic factor, sublingual dosing is NOT an option.

Why is it that I can take 10,000mcg of MB12 sublingually and my hands/feet stay cold and I notice nothing mentally. Then when I use a nasal spray I feel energetic, emotional, excited, and my hands/feet become warm within 45 minutes. If I vape the b12 all of the effects of the nasal spray happen within 5-15 minutes with 10x the effect on my cognition. Because I lack intrinsic factor.

While I agree with you that I won't trust the source of something from "alternative medicine review" I do trust that I would never take cyanocobalamin over the other forms that haven't already given up their affinity for noxious molecules, here is why:

Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1293728/
And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1296017/?page=1

Those who cannot absorb b12 in food require supplements. Cyanocobalamin only exists because after making hydroxocobalamin from bacteria it binds to cyanide during the charcoal filtration process. Everyone gets cyanide in their systems one way or another, bonfire, second hand smoke, even most plants/vegetation have small amounts. Without either methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin to bind to the cyanide and have it harmlessly excreted through the urine it will instead cause damage. If someone who cannot absorb normal b12 (methylcobalamin) only takes cyancobalamin then they are depriving their body of a natural antidote, a cyanide antagonist. Just an FYI hydroxocobalamin is in fact the antidote used for cyanide poisoning.

Also the retention for cyancobalamin is half of the other forms: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4175091

Oh and apparently it takes <48 hours for cyan-b12 to convert to hydrox-b12, and >48 hours for it to convert to methyl-b12, and only a small amount at that: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/501204

"Sharabi found that sublingual B12 was just as effective as injectable." Who is Sharabi? The link doesn't work, can you relink the pubmed article? I very much want to read this.

Also in this study all of the individuals were healthy except for being deficient in b12. They were not lacking intrinsic factor. The first group took 500ug sublingually, the second group took 500ug orally, the third took a b-complex with 250ug among other things. Over the course of 8 weeks their plasma cobalamin levels were measured and they were all the exact same every time. There was NO statistical difference. In other words oral and sublingual b12 have the exact same bio-availability. The next time you're feeling like you need to redose as an experiment just try taking it orally. You might be able to save yourself the hassle: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1884303/

"Bioavailability is approximately 25%. http://www.drugs.com/ppa/cyanocobalamin-vitamin-b12.html"

Directly from the article you linked, which isn't pubmed so why would we trust it?:

"Bound to intrinsic factor during transit through the stomach; separation occurs in the presence of calcium, and vitamin B 12 enters the mucosal cells for absorption. Bioavailability is approximately 25%."

First of all that's for when an individual with a healthy army of intrinsic factor is using the b12. For others, like me, this is useless. Also it says NOTHING about the bioavailability of a sublingual dose, which was the point you were trying to argue I believe.

Have you even read the research that I linked to in my original post? Please read the last paragraph on pg. 38 which shows that using Lactoacillits Icichnioal as a b12 bio-availability test that 200mcg of mb12 inhaled is more than 5x more potent than 10,000mcg of oral mb12 in patients with pernicious anemia. I've attached another paper I found at my university on the subject. They also say that sublingual b12 is NOT an effective form of therapy for someone with pernicious anemia. People try to switch after they are brought to baseline with injections but they are inevitably sick again. With the inhalation method however, they continue to improve just as they would with injections.
 

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21
@bluewhistled, your experiments with B12 atomization and inhalation into the lungs are fascinating! It's an excellent innovation! Thanks for posting this.

I can see that this technique might become one of the preferred ways to administer B12.

It makes me wonder what other supplements or drugs one could could atomize and inhale. Obviously this will only work for medications whose doses are in the mcg range, because you would not be able to smoke a dose of say 500 mg of a medication.

Welcome the the forum, by the way.


I don't know if these are of any use to you for your vaping purposes, but the following range of B12 liquids are much more concentrated than usual (though they do contain additional ingredients):

Hydroxo-12 from Scientific Botanicals. This B12 hydroxocobalamin liquid only contains one other ingredient, potassium sorbate, and is very potent at 1 mg (1000 mcg) per drop, having 325 such drops in the 15 ml bottle. Most other liquid B12 is much weaker, at 1 mg per each 1 ml dropperful, not per drop. Hydroxo-12 can be bought at various places.

Then there is adenosylcobalamin, methylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin liquid drops from Holistic Health International. These are also potent at 1 mg per drop, but they contain citric acid, which may sting.

I actually put two or three drops of the Hydroxo-12 liquid into each of my nasal cavities by placing a pipette into my nose with my head titled right back. This is a very good way to absorb B12. You can use the Hydroxo-12 liquid intranasally in this way, but don't try putting any B12 liquid containing citric acid into your nasal cavities, as this will likely sting.


Incidentally, if you still are suffering with anxiety symptoms, the anti-anxiety protocol detailed on this thread has proved very effective for a number of members of this forum.

Thank you for the warm welcoming.

I certainly hope it helps some of you. I was very close to taking the injection route before I experimented with this after discovering that research from years back. It just happened to be around the same period that I became interested in electronic cigarettes and it didn't take much to put two and two together :)

I've read that Vitamin C can be inhaled safely. But I haven't looked too much into it. If you read towards the bottom of that research I posted they explain why b12 is unique in its ability to be inhaled: since it is non-toxic at any dose. Most medications require a fine tuned control in dose, MB12 is a rare case where the more the better. Also the molecule has to be robust to a certain degree of temperature as a lot of heat is applied to it in the atomizer. MB12 is once again perfect for that as it only seems to be sensitive to light.

Unfortunately potassium sorbate should not be inhaled as it's a lung irritant. I do like the potency. You should look into Methyl-Mate, it has a very high potency and is designed to be used as a nasal spray (although they don't say that on the website, they will give you a nasal spray bottle with your purchase). But it does contain potassium sorbate so it's a no go for vaping. The ones from Holistic Health also contain potassium sorbate.

The Methyl-Mate I recommended does contain citric acid but it was such a low amount it never bothered my sinuses. I highly recommend it for nasal dosing.

Thank you for the link to the anti-anxiety protocol. I will be sure to check it out.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
@bluewhistled

In terms of finding a source of pure B12 methylcobalamin:

If you search online for B12 methylcobalamin under its CAS number 13422-55-4, you should find some chemical suppliers that sell pure B12 powder. See here. Most suppliers will be wholesale, and these will only sell to companies, not individuals. That means you would need to mail them some company letter headed paper to prove you are a company, or something along those lines. It may also be hard to find wholesalers that will sell you just say 1 gram (but I saw a few that will here).

However, you can also find suppliers who will sell to individuals. I did a search and found the following methylcobalamin suppliers that I think will sell to individuals:

Superior Nutraceuticals: Methyl B12 99% — no weight specified. May need to email them to ask.
Fusion Global Chemicals Methylcobalamin
Methylcobalamin, Colonial Scientific
All Chemicals : Methylcobalamin
Methylcobalamin - Vitamins - Chemical Catalog * 13422-55-4

Though if you can buy through a wholesaler, the prices might be cheaper.
 
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skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Thanks so much for posting. Very interesting idea. I've ordered all the atomizer stuff and the b12. We'll see how it goes.

It took some hours to understand all the e-cig/atomizer language and to figure out exactly what I was ordering. I ended up ordering from My Freedom Smokes. They had comparable prices to the original site bluewhistled mentioned, but they had much better descriptions of what I was actually purchasing. If anyone else is interested, you can order an "advanced e-cig starter kit", which gives you some options for a battery, tank ( I chose the kranger mini protank3 too) and charger. They also sell VG. I also picked up a couple extra 60ml dropper bottles and syringes for mixing. Sorry for sounding like an ad, but figuring this stuff out was a little taxing. Hope this helps someone.

Will update after I give it a go.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
Be interesting to hear your results with B12 vaping, @skwag.

The link to the Advanced E-Cig Starter Kit is here. The Kanger Mini Protank 3 clearomizer in this starter kit has some good reviews, like this one.

It seems all you need for B12 vaping into the lungs is a:

Clearomizer (which is a fluid tank and vaporizer unit, such as the Kanger Mini Protank 3)
Rechargeable battery unit that fits onto the clearomizer to powder it
Battery recharger
Vegetable glycerin
based fluid for e-cigarettes, into which you put the B12, and then put into the clearomizer tank for smoking.

I wonder if it is possible to buy pure vegetable glycerin, without the nicotine inside, for non-smokers. I very occasionally smoke an electronic cigarette, so I personally don't mind the nicotine. Mine is one of the old, first generation, mini electronic cigarettes that use a cartridge system, not a see-through tank (see The Different Types of E-Cigarettes).
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@Hip
My Freedom Smokes sells the pure vegetable glycerin ( VG) without nicotine. You can find it under mixing supplies. I think it is commonly available, but if you are vaporizing it you probably want to make sure it is USP grade or equivalent.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
I received all the gear and the MB12/water yesterday and I was able to vape 1mg of MB12 or so. I did it just as bluewhistled explained with 50% VG and 50% MB12 solution.

Results: The short answer is I don't know.

Here's the longer story.

I started by vaping a 50% VG + 50% distilled water mixture without MB12 . This served two purposes. First there is a bit of a learning curve with vaping. The battery is variable voltage and I really have no idea where that should be set. The amount of vapor created seems to be dependent of the voltage and how quickly air is sucked through it. I'm still not sure about all this, but I practiced enough to get reliable vapor production. Second, I wanted to get a baseline so I could try to determine if vaping MB12 worked.

A little background. When I started Freddd's protocol around 2 years ago I had a very clear and immediate reaction to the solgar folate/enzy MB12 combination. I have described it in the past as similar to a nicotine buzz. That is still the closest description I have. That only occurred the first day or two. I did not experience anything like that again until I tried the Country Life MB12. I described that reaction as "feeling a little weird." I'm still not absolutely convinced both these reactions were not a placebo effect, but in any case, this is the type of feeling I would hope to get if vaping MB12 worked orders of magnitude better that sublinguals ( and if I am still in need ).

On to vaping MB12. I did get a feeling. Lightheaded. This could be easily explained by sucking on this vaporizer too much. I was inhaling this deeper than the vaping I did without B12. That would explain it. On the other hand, maybe it was the B12. I don't know.

My plan is to stop sublinguals for at least a week. I will only vape for B12. Then I'll swtich back to sublinguals. Hopefully I'll learn something more definitive.
 
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@Hip, thank you for those links. I will be investigating them soon.

Also you can buy pure VG or PG if you need to. I have a gallon of each. Vegetable Glycerin is sweeter and easier on the throat, while Propylene Glycol gives you a "throat hit" which smokers tend to like. My nicotine based eliquid I mix at 50/50. My mb12 liquid I mix at 50 water, 30 VG, 20 PG. The reason for the PG is that it is the base that my flavor concentrate comes in so no getting around it.

If I can get my hands on pure crystal mb12 I will see how densely it dissolves in VG. It would be nice to only have to take one "hit" a day.

@skwag, sorry for not getting back sooner I've been really busy.

I'm glad someone is trying this out! I switched from nasal spray to this and I really noticed a difference. But after three weeks or so of using it I don't really notice anything from it anymore, that is until I stopped. My speculative opinion is that with the nasal spray I was constantly trying to saturate my plasma levels and just couldn't get there. So for months I would feel the effects 45 min or so after dosing and they would last for part of the day. It was almost like getting a small high every day but really it was me falling short in dose/method/frequency.

Once I switched to vaping I noticed it constantly and full force. After a couple of weeks of my blood being completely saturated with mb12 I've simply become acclimated to feeling this way all of the time. I actually stopped for two days after feeling like I wasn't getting much from it anymore. I was hoping I could go down to maybe three times a week like the study's regimen. I then started getting (what I thought was) sick. I get really bad aches in my legs, I have my entire life, but when I started b12 nasal sprays they disappeared. Well they came back after I stopped vaping along with a headache, I vaped an entire tank and it all went away.

So this method is a highly bio-available method (the research proves that), but if you don't have an issue with intrinsic factor then it may not be necessary since it sounds like you have already maxed out any need for b12 your body may have.

I'm curious to see what your cessation of sublinguals do for you. My expectation is that you don't notice any change whatsoever.

EDIT: Also just to add in case you missed it in the research. The best way to inhale is to do a sharp exhale removing existing oxygen in your lungs, then a deep inhale, and then slowly exhale through the nose. I let off my battery's button every 5 seconds or so and restart it so it doesn't quit on me. It's to avoid the safety mechanism that does an auto-shutoff in case it starts going off in your pocket. Just keep your fingers on the atomizer to make sure it doesn't get excessively warm.

As far as voltage goes that really depends on your coil. I'm using 3.6v on my dual 1.5ohm atomizer coils with this liquid and it seems to work well. Keep in mind that the accuracy of these variable voltage systems drop when the battery starts getting drained.
 
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skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Bluewhistled, thanks for the tips.

I'm interested in getting my hands on some b12 crystals, too. I went through some of the links Hip posted. I also asked for quotes from a number of alibaba listed sources in China. It looks to be $4k to $5k for one kilogram of 99% purity medical grade MB12 delivered. I wonder if enough people want the crystals to make something like that worthwhile.