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Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
@skwag

One kilogram of B12 crystals would be a bit too much, if you were dividing the purchase between say a dozen people. Assuming a daily dose of 5 mg of B12 is taken by an individual, then buying 5 grams of B12 would last that person 1000 days (nearly 3 years).

If you got a dozen people interested in each buying 5 grams, that's a total purchase of 60 grams.

If you look here, you will see that some Chinese wholesalers have a minimum purchase quantity of just 1 gram, and others a minimum purchase quantity of 100 grams. Those would be the most suitable for small purchases. If you ask them, they may be able to supply the B12 in several individual packets of 5 grams each, which would make it easier to distribute to a group of people.

Note that B12 methylcobalamin is relatively stable under heating, but methylcobalamin is destroyed by light (photodecomposition). So you must store methylcobalamin in a completely opaque container, so that no light can get in.

I think the photodecomposition process occurs more quickly when methylcobalamin is dissolved in water, so you are better off storing it dry.

B12 methylcobalamin is reasonably stable under heating: this article mentions that: "In neutral media and in the absence of light, the carbon—cobalt bond in methylcobalamin is very stable to thermal breakdown, and the molecule can even stand heating to 100°C for 20 minutes."



Info on the Photodecomposition of B12 Methylcobalamin Under Light

The study: "Stability of high-dose methylcobalamin injection" found that in ampoules of injectable methylcobalamin (ie, methylcobalamin in aqueous solution) that were wrapped in aluminum foil to protect them from light, around 92% of the methylcobalamin was still present 6 months later. So in the absence of light, methylcobalamin is reasonably stable.

However, this study found that 50% of the methylcobalamin in the ampoules disintegrated after only 4 hours exposure to bright light of 1000 lux (which is about the light level you get at 1 meter from an ordinary 60 Watt incandescent light bulb).

In this study: Time-Resolved Spectroscopic Studies of B12 Coenzymes:  The Photolysis of Methylcobalamin Is Wavelength Dependent they found that the photodecomposition of B12 methylcobalamin occurs at two wavelengths: the ultraviolet UVA wavelength of 400 nm, and the visible light wavelength of 520 nm.

The best way to work with methylcobalamin would be using a red photographic darkroom light, which should not affect the methylcobalamin. Short of that, keep the ambient light dim when working with methylcobalamin.
 
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skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@Hip,

I tried to get get quotes for 100g of B12 from the some of the alibaba listings. Nobody replied. When I asked about a kilogram sized order, only 2 of the 10 or so requests I made got a reply. My assumption is these people don't really want to deal in small quantities, even when they list a small quantity min order. Maybe someone else has more experience here or has gotten an actual quote for a smaller quantity?

Thanks for the info on light sensitivity. The first link didn't work for me though. I've been wrapping everything in foil, even the amber bottles.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
@skwag
Wholesalers will generally only sell to companies, not individuals, so you need to have a company email, company website, company phone number, etc, before they take you seriously.

I have fixed the first link.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Update: I'm beginning to think vaping B12 really works.

I did another round of vaping this morning. I first started with 50%VG - 50% distilled water combination and tried to see if I would get lightheaded. I did not. I then moved on to the 50%VG - 50% B12/water combination. After a few inhales I definitely got a light headed feeling again. After 15 minutes or so that feeling lessened a great degree ( it was still there a bit) even though I continued vaping the B12. The whole while I tired to vape consistently with both mixtures.

With an assistant and a second vaporizer, it would be pretty easy to do a blind trial to eliminate any placebo effect.

Thanks again to @bluewhistled for posting.
 
Messages
21
@skwag

I looked through the links Hip posted just now and some seem to be a lot cheaper than that. I'm curious about this website however: http://www.superiornutraceuticals.c...N&Product_Code=MethlyB12P&Category_Code=OAASN

For $55 they don't say the quantity other than that the whole package is .5lbs. But I'm not sure what they mean by the purity and dosing:

"This item is pure Methylcobolamin. And should be used for research, and/or reformulation purposes. Due to the purity it would be very difficult to attempt to dose this in 1000mcg or even 5000mcg increments without highly specialized equipment."

Do they mean because you would need a special scale to measure in micrograms? I'm not sure why it's "due to the purity". Fortunately there is no harm in taking more than necessary and an accuracy down to the milligram would be fine. So I'm not sure why they suggest "highly specialized equipment".

Even here I see 5 grams for $350. http://www.fgchems.com/product/FG-10-0004.aspx

That could be enough for 5,000 1,000ug doses, which is well beyond what is necessary.

EDIT: I posted this without seeing the last page of posts. Still though, 5 grams for $350 could be split up 5 ways.

EDIT2: I emailed the first company asking about the quantity/need for equipment. I'll post back if/when they reply.
 
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Messages
21
@bluewhistled
Just to clarify, citric acid is ok for nasal, but NOT OK for inhaling?? thx.

@Hip Thanks so much for researching sources!:)

It all depends on the concentration. I can't give you exact numbers because I don't know. I can tell you that the Methyl-Mate I recommended (containing citric acid) is meant to be used as a nasal spray although they don't say it on the website. I'm not sure if there are some legal issues since there are prescription nasal sprays out there which cost exorbitantly more and require a prescription. But when you buy it from them they also send you a nasal spray bottle and there are a lot of people using it specifically as a nasal spray.

As far as vaping is concerned, I know that a lot of eliquids use citric acid for fruity flavors and the like. I'm sure there is a safe threshold but I don't have any research off hand to point to what it may be. From what my quick googling determined it looks like researchers use it to induce asthma attacks and coughing. So it may just be an irritant at higher concentrations. I would feel much safer inhaling citric acid than the other preservatives that are in a lot of these b12 sprays.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
I wonder what sort of percentage of the vaporized B12 in the electronic cigarette gets into the blood. My guess is that is would be pretty high percentage, close to 100%. My guess is that vaping B12 could be almost as effective as injections.

By contrast, intranasal absorption of B12 is only around 2 to 5%, so that means if you place a 5000 mcg dose of B12 in your nose, you are only going to get around 100 to 250 mcg absorbed. I imagine if you use the sublingual method there will be even less absorption percentage-wise.

If you are using the intranasal or sublingual method, I would think you are going to use up much more B12 than if you use electronic cigarette vaping. Vaping may be a very cost effect way of taking B12.


By the way, if you need to buy a digital scales that can weigh down to 1 milligram in order to measure out the B12 powder, these can be bought for as little as $10. See here.

I've got one of these scales.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@bluewhistled,

I would be up for splitting the 5 grams at the $350 price. That would be $70 per gram. This is probably a good size to start with - 5 grams split 5 or so ways.

Personally I'm still interested in the larger orders. The savings are great ( a cost of $4 to $5 per gram) , but we probably can't organize enough people to make it worthwhile.

If it turns out that $55 dollars buys a gram from the other website, then it would make sense to buy individually from there.

Let us know what you find out.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
One of the reasons I rely on iherb is due to their excellent shipping costs. If sending a small packet of the B12 from US to Aus is as inexpensive as it seems it ought to be, I'd be interested in a group purchase.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
@skwag

I looked through the links Hip posted just now and some seem to be a lot cheaper than that. I'm curious about this website however: http://www.superiornutraceuticals.c...N&Product_Code=MethlyB12P&Category_Code=OAASN

For $55 they don't say the quantity other than that the whole package is .5lbs

I sent and enquiry and received an email from superiornutraceuticals.com. They said that you get 5 grams of B12 methylcobalamin for $55 (which would equal 5000 X 1000 mcg doses). Looks like very good value.

I think you are probably going to need a milligram scales to measure out tiny doses of this powder though.
 
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skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
I sent and enquiry and received and email from superiornutraceuticals.com. They said that you get 5 grams of B12 methylcobalamin for $55 (which would equal 5000 x 1000 mcg doses). Looks like very good value.

I think you are probably going to need a milligram scales to measure out tiny doses of this powder though.

That is an excellent value! Thanks Hip.
 
Messages
21
I sent and enquiry and received and email from superiornutraceuticals.com. They said that you get 5 grams of B12 methylcobalamin for $55 (which would equal 5000 x 1000 mcg doses). Looks like very good value.

I think you are probably going to need a milligram scales to measure out tiny doses of this powder though.

Yep I got the same reply. I asked him for a COA on the mb12 and I'm waiting for a reply on that. I would like to know how it was tested for purity and hopefully a signed certificate of analysis. The business looks somewhat sketchy to me but maybe I shouldn't judge a book by its cover. They also sell on ebay which is where I think they started. You can buy larger amounts for a price break: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Methyl-B12-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item8e0a42cedb

I've got a milligram scale that is pretty accurate, it was $25 on amazon and has been going strong for 2 years now. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012TDNAM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
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Messages
21
In an effort to save you guys some money I want to mention an alternative to the battery ecigarette setup that I just got. It is what they call a "pass through" which is an antiquated name because it originates from a battery that can be plugged in while vaping. Instead this is a unit you plugin without a battery at all.

For $10 you can get one here: http://www.litecigusa.net/Variable_Voltage_EgO_510_USB_Passthrough_p/ego-variable-pass.htm

I'm sure many other places have them for cheap as well. I'm starting to feel like an ad for these guys but it's only because that's where I got mine.

And then all you need is a clearomizer like the Kanger Mini Protank 3 that both skwag and I are using. It may be worth picking up a couple of extra coils for the clearomizer, they are $2.50 a piece at litecigusa. Over time the coils in the tank will wear out and you can take them apart and replace them very easily.

Then you just take the passthrough and add the clearomizer on top, set the variable voltage passthrough settings to either "purple" 3.8v or "red" 4.2v. I like it more actually since it doesn't cut out for like 12 seconds vs my battery at about 7 and I don't have to worry about keeping a battery charged or having the variable voltage drop from battery drain. It uses USB to run it and unless you stick to the lower voltages I wouldn't use your PC's or a USB wall wart that puts out less than 2 amps. They sell usb wall warts on the site too but you can just check spare ones you may have to see what the output is. Just an off topic FYI on buying those things you always want 2 amps for every usb plug on any usb charger you get. Most don't and they'll spread 2 amps across four usb ports and you'll end up damaging your electronics when you charge multiples simultaneously.

Those combined are about $20 total.

@skwag, I know I said 3.8v earlier works well for me but with this passthrough knowing I won't be draining my battery I set it to 4.2 and I get a TON of vapor. I exhale, then inhale for a solid ten seconds, then let off the button and start it back up instantly to inhale for another 10 seconds and I can completely fill my lungs. It gets to the point where I feel like I could almost cough from too much VG/water vapor. If when you get to this point you hold your breath long enough so that you won't see much vapor on an exhale which to me says it all settled in your lungs.

I REALLY noticed it today when I used this method at 4.2v with the dual coil atomizer. I highly recommend this method. I really think the breathing technique makes a huge difference. The only downside to the "pass through" is that you can't vape on the go sans battery.
 
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skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Good tips. I actually put in an order today for another battery and replacement heads for the mini protank 3. It is good advice to pick up some extra heads from the get-go. I think mine is already halfway fried. User error I assume. I'm getting a burnt taste at anything higher than 3.6V, and I can see some of the wick is now missing. The vapor is still acceptable, but probably nothing like what you've got going.

I'll give your technique a go at my next session. Cheers.
 
Messages
21
It's probable that you let the tank get too low and you burnt the coils. In which case it'l have a nasty burn taste for a while. These atomizers are rebuildable, I haven't forayed into that territory yet but it would be much more cost effective than buying new coils every time. You would need to build the wicks and using a multimeter build them for the appropriate resistance. There are youtube videos on how to clean atomizers, basically flush it with isopropyl alcohol and "dry burn" it off while flushing with VG or PG. Haven't had to do that yet.

You have to be careful about the tank level especially now since we have the glass covered, mine is wrapped in electric tape and I can peal it back to see the level. I typically don't let the liquid get below the metal piece the glass sits into. I need to find a translucent paint that has the same effect as an amber jar to coat this glass in.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,910
I wonder if an ultrasonic nebulizer might be another viable way of getting B12 into the lungs. Ultrasonic nebulizers are used to deliver medications into the lungs, in conditions like asthma and bronchitis. You can buy an ultrasonic nebulizer for as little as $15.

With these nebulizers, you dissolve your medication in water, then put this water into the nebulizer, and using ultrasound (not heat) the nebulizer converts the water containing your medication into a fine mist, which you breath into the lungs.
 
Messages
21
I'm sure it would work as well. In the study they used an atomizer, a nebulizer, and something that releases the b12 in a powdered form to be inhaled. Since b12 is very resilient to heat I'm not sure if there would be anything to gain since they all get the same job done. Could be worth exploring though considering the price.