LED red intranasal light therapy

[Chris]

@Hip, thanks for that link--yes, it does say $5,000, but that seems to be an approx. price for a pre-production guess, rather than a firm offer. However, your link did give a link to an already published study of the PoNS on MS--apparently quite successful, and placebo controlled, though it did begin with an intensive 2 week work out with each individual participant. So the McGill/Mtl Neuro study with MS is a follow-up. But it looks pretty good...now for ME!

There is now a new thread, now displacing us from first place under the "Alternative" heading, that looks interesting--a variation on the Vagus nerve stuff?

http://blog.autonomicspecialists.co...4+(10!6027505388250!qwaya!0)&utm_term=CFS+CAN

 

[ScottTriGuy]

@Hip, ...

There is now a new thread, now displacing us from first place under the "Alternative" heading, that looks interesting--a variation on the Vagus nerve stuff?

http://blog.autonomicspecialists.com/new-treatment-for-chronic-fatigue-patients/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ocpm&utm_campaign=AS - CFS 7/13&utm_content=2015-07-13 4 (10!6027505388250!qwaya!0)&utm_term=CFS CAN

From that site about TVAM procedure:

"The Procedure
During the procedure, the patient will receive conscious sedation to maintain comfort throughout, and the treatment will typically take under an hour to perform.

The procedure involves both venographic and intravascular ultrasound (IVUS) evaluation of the jugular, azygos, renal, and spinal veins. Since venous abnormalities are subtle and challenging to identify, during the procedure Dr. Arata uses an IVUS probe attached to the end of the small catheter to create pictures from inside of the veins.

This technique increases the accuracy of the overall evaluation of the venous system and allows for more precise measurements of the veins themselves. If a venous abnormality is seen during the procedure, it is corrected by dilation in hopes of providing symptom relief."

I don't see any references to research. Red flag.

 

[Hip]

TVAM looks similar to the vein widening procedure Paolo Zamboni tried in multiple sclerosis.

Couple of studies for TVAM in multiple sclerosis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24915592
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25789986

But here is a warning about trying TVAM in cases of POTS.

 

[Chris]

@Scott and Hip--thanks, guys--will scratch that one off my list of things possibly to be investigated!

 

[Hip]

@Chris
I have just been retesting my 830 nm infrared illuminator on my forehead and temple areas for the last three days (for 30 minutes each day), and whereas previously I did not notice any effects from this treatment, this time the effects are quite apparent. I applied my infrared illuminator to my head much like the picture in this post.

The most pronounced effect I noticed from this infrared was a significant increase in fatigue levels. At first I though this was just coincidence, but then after reading selfhacked's article on low level light therapy, he states that tiredness and fatigue is a common side effect in many people (and for this reason recommends doing this therapy before bed).

Although increased fatigue is obviously an undesirable symptom for ME/CFS patients, the fact that I clearly experienced this fatigue indicates near infrared therapy on my head does have an impact.

So scratch what I said earlier about infrared therapy not working for me — it does. Although previously I think only tried infrared therapy on the back of my head, not on the forehead and temples areas. So that may have made the key difference.

(Selfhacked says to apply the infrared light to all areas of the head except the back; not sure why).

Selfhacked believes the fatigue from near infrared light is due to increased TNF-alpha; but says that in the long term, the infrared therapy should reduce fatigue:

[infrared therapy] causes fatigue in many. I believe the mechanism is by increasing TNF-alpha acutely (R). While it may acutely increase TNF-alpha, it down-regulates the production chronically (R). Read my posts about how inflammation and TNF-alpha is related to fatigue.

It's interesting that Selfhacked says:

If you feel groggy the next day and only took 30 seconds per a spot (less than 6 minutes in total) then it means you have an inflammatory and/or mitochondrial issue. LLLT will help with it.

In terms of positive effects, I noticed that the infrared treatment has made me more observant of incidental details in the environment around me. So in this respect, it seems to make some mild improvements to brain fog (I always find with brain fog you become oblivious to incidental details). There may be some anxiety-reduction effects too, but it is too early to tell. I need to experiment a bit longer with this therapy.


You may be in interested in this study, which looks at how much light transmits through the skull for red light at 633 nm and near infrared light at 830 nm: Transcranial Red and Near Infrared Light Transmission in a Cadaveric Model.

From this study, the graph shown below (original here) indicates how near infrared at 830 nm is significantly better at penetrating the skull than red light at 633 nm:

Percent Penetrance of Light through Sagittal Sections of Cadaver Skull with Intact Soft Tissue

​

As you can see, infrared light is many times more effective at penetrating the skull than red light.

 

[Chris]

@Hip--after reading Doidge and Naeser's papers I was never in doubt over the ability of transcranial light to create some response, and my own experience confirmed this. Thanks for the cadaveric model paper--I do have that. I can see no reason for not applying the light to the back of the head--my impression is that if I apply it to the area of the visual cortex, images on Blu-ray are a bit more vivid. Fred Kahn focuses on the base of the skull and the upper neck in working on ME patients, as does the Polish clinic which has been treating MS with apparently some success for a good many years now.

I think the intranasal approach used by Lew Lim at Vielight is also successful, using low power and longer time to work, which I think may prove the most beneficial approach--it has become clear that it is not only total power delivered but also the distribution over time that counts; there is also now clear evidence that pulsed delivery has several benefits, including greater penetration, less danger of tissue heating, and slower delivery of power--Lew Lim now uses 10hz and 50% duty cycle on both his 810 and Neuro. Both units seem successful, and I am using the 810 daily, occasionally twice daily, and it seems to be helping. There is a paper by Takshiro Ando, "Comparison of
Therapeutic Effects between Pulsed and Continuous Wave 810-nm Wavelength Laser Irradiation for Traumatic Brain Injury in Mice" and a paper by Hoon Chung and Michael Hamblin, "The Nuts and Bolts of Low-Level Laser (Light) Therapy" that deals with this and also the issue of dose--it seems clear now that there is a bi-phasic dosimetry--hormesis--not too little, but not too much, that varies with the condition and doubtless the person. I think Scott confirmed the report I had heard from another patient treated by Fred Kahn that he felt he had been overtreating them, though I have not heard about a new reduced protocol. Certainly the two small mouse model studies of MS concluded that a relatively low level of treatment, with periodic breaks, was the way to go, and generally I think it is easy to overtreat our condition.

I have more or less settled on using the 810 at least daily, the 633 more or less daily, and having around 2 sessions weekly with the two MED-X caps, using around 20-25 Joules total each time with each unit, pulsed at 10hz and 50% duty cycle, and covering about 4 areas each session with each unit--aiming at something maybe approximating the output of the Vielight Neuro. I can vary the areas covered each time. So far I am fairly content with this routine, but will take a break or make a change if I hit more turbulence. As of now, I am clear that there has been visible significant improvement in a knot of varicose veins in my right calf--I think especially the 633 has been doing good work on my circulation, maybe via the endothelium, which may be the target of autoantibodies if Mella and Fluge are correct. My previous high blood pressure spikes after exericise are very much reduced, and in fact I have not had a real crash for quite a while, though I still have down days. My sleep has definitely improved, though further improvement would still be welcome. I am still optimistic that there may be further improvement to come, and that LLLT is here to stay, though there will be further developments and refinements in the protocols that work best for us--which will doubtless vary from person to person.

 

[Hip]

my impression is that if I apply it to the area of the visual cortex, images on Blu-ray are a bit more vivid.

That's interesting, and makes sense.

Fred Kahn focuses on the base of the skull and the upper neck in working on ME patients,

That's the area where I originally placed my infrared illuminator, but at that time noticed no effects. Though sometimes the difficulty can be observing the benefits (or negative effects) of a treatment. With brain fog, we are not the most observant of people, I think.

I have more or less settled on using the 810 at least daily, the 633 more or less daily, and having around 2 sessions weekly with the two MED-X caps

What is this MED-X product you are using?



Did you see this article about Margaret Naeser on using LLLT on Gulf War illness? If you click on the image to enlarge, you see that they are using three types of LLLT simultaneously, including the Vielight. Quite a setup.

And they use a MedX product — an LED cluster heads placed on the ears.

 

[Chris]

@Hip--yes, that Naeser study does show a rather overpowering array enclosing that head! I think they are using an 810 and a 633 (could be a 655, which I have never seen), and yes, those two white capsules over the poor guy's ears are the MedX capsules I am using. You can get info by going to www.medXhealth.com , under "home products." I think I gave incorrect info in a post here some time ago--each capsule contains 116 4.3mW NIR diodes at 870nm, and 10 1mW red diodes at 633; total power rated at 500mW. I Joule per 45 seconds. Can be set at Continuous, or Pulsed at 0-2000hz, Duty Cycle 10%-100%. If you want more info, PM me.

 

[Chris]

@Hip--P.S.--I think many expect too rapid results from this stuff. Sometimes there is an instant response--my hushed tinnitus after one trial of the 810 (though it came back, it is now much subdued), a burst of sleep--but my experience is that results come after months rather than days, and if they come after days, it may well mean that one is overdosing and heading for trouble.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

@Hip-..... Fred Kahn focuses on the base of the skull and the upper neck in working on ME patients, as does the Polish clinic which has been treating MS with apparently some success for a good many years now.

First, I have great respect for Dr Kahn's knowledge of laser therapy.

However, in May I asked Dr Kahn specifically if he had treated others with m.e. and he said no. He didn't seem to know what m.e. was.

I must have mentioned that the leading theory was an infection that triggered m.e. symptoms - he said that if m.e. was caused by a viral infection my anti-HIV meds would have taken care of it - I had to repeat twice that HIV is a retrovirus but he didn't seem to get it.

When I asked him what he thought I should do to help with recovery he said 'a month on a beach'. As much as I liked the idea, I didn't think it would cure m.e. So yes, he's very knowledgeable about laser therapy, but he may have drank a little too much of his own kool aid.

I have been using my home unit nearly daily since late April on the base of my skull in four different positions. Each position at 5mins on LED, then each at 6mins on infrared, total 46 minutes. As I've said earlier, I had the greatest gains in the first 3 days: from housebound / severe to mobile / moderate.

This past week I got results of cognitive testing - performed by the same psychologists as a decade / 12 yrs ago (when I was part of a HIV and cognition study) so they had previous testing to compare - in spite of my protests of brain fog and faulty memory, and daily medical marijuana use, my memory improved compared to a decade ago, and is more than 2 standard deviations from the mean (there must be a lot of people with really bad memories). Could it be the laser therapy?

 

[maddietod]

Have any of you scientific types studied the specs on this new offering from Vielight? Any idea how it compares to the medXhealth unit @Chris? [I couldn't find the medX unit on their website.]

 

[Chris]

@madietodd; when you say "new offering" I take it you mean the Neuro? The MED-X unit is not made by Vielight--see www.medXhealth.com under "home products." I am by no means a "scientific type", but am familiar with both of these products--use them a lot. The MED-X units are smallish, neat near circular capsules about 2 1/2ins that I describe a few posts above. They are very flexible and fairly powerful, but you have to programme them yourself--they are really designed for use by health practitioners, who programme them and then rent them to patients for home use. They can be used for joints, tendons, etc.--anywhere on the body. They can also be used transcranially, as I am using them, and as they have been used by such as Margaret Naeser to treat stroke and TBI damage. They obviously cannot be used intranasally.

The Neuro is Lew Lim's latest, and combines a souped up version of his 810 intranasal unit with a "helmet" of four small transcranial capsules, aimed at the Default Mode Network of the brain. They are all pulsed at 10hz and 50% duty cycle, so they operate together as a "whole brain" treatment, with a programmed 25 minute timing. I have no experience of it, but it should be very easy to use-no programming, no choices to make. It is very early days yet, but Lew's first reports on a small study on Alzheimer's seems positive, and it is also being tried on kids with ASD. If I were starting now, I think I would buy one, but since I already have an 810 (which, in conjunction with a 633, which I also have and use) has already proved itself with Alzheimer's, and also two MED-X caps, which I think I can programme to provide much of what the "helmet" part of the Neuro provides. I think I will wait and see--if it seems there is real magic in the Neuro, I would be very tempted to find the money, particularly as they offer a discount to people who already have an 810. Does that help?

@Scott; thanks for the info on Kahn; it confirms my sense that he has just been experimenting with ME, and my sense that we have to go with our own experimental experience. Which suggests to me that the intranasal approach of the Vielights is very useful as a way of getting at the ANS and as a way of irradiating the blood to achieve systemic effects. I should have mentioned in my summary above that in addition to not now getting really painful high blood pressure spikes, usually after moderate exercise but occasionally in the middle of the night, my BP regulation now seems significantly improved--I put that down at a guess to both the 633 and the 810 improving my ANS regulation.

 

[Hip]

the poor guy's ears are the MedX capsules I am using. You can get info by going to www.medXhealth.com , under "home products."

Have you tried the MedX capsules on different areas of your head, such as the forehead? I take it you have the MedX Home System.

but my experience is that results come after months rather than days,

I find that unless the improvement in ME/CFS symptoms are fairly substantial, it can be hard to observe gains in health that happen over months. This I find is a problem in gauging any slow-to-act treatment.

If improvements happen over days or weeks, yes, you tend to notice; but if they happen ever so slowly over months, they can be hard to spot.

The only time I notice slow improvements is by thinking back, and realizing that there have been some objective changes in my habits or behavior in recent months. For example, I might suddenly realize that I have no longer been taking a 90 minute nap during the day, whereas some time ago, this would be a regular daily occurrence. If I can make observations like that, then I can figure out I must have improved over the months. But I certainly cannot observe this improvement subjectively, because it's hard to remember how you felt subjectively some months ago.

How are you working out that have improved symptomatically over months?

 

[Chris]

PS--I am still thinking about the Neuro, having just turned down my place on the waiting list. I don't think the capsules on the Neuro are moveable--Lew has chosen the Default Mode Network as his target, and that is where they are aimed. I like the freedom to aim my MED-X capsules at any area of my head, though simultaneously registering the inconvenience of having to hold them there, or find some elastic breathable cap to hold them in place to free my hands.

@Scott--I can't say if the LED/laser (I am sure the home units you have are LED) treatment is responsible for your improvements, but would guess that they are--certainly the rapid improvement you registered at first must be?

@Hip--the "home system" has two versions--a 3 capsule with single controller, while I have two single capsules, each with its own controller. Registering improvement--it is tricky, I agree. But I do keep a daily diary on my computer, and some things, like dealing with those intense BP spikes, register in my memory pretty clearly. I also take a near daily morning walk, and keep notes on it, so I can print up a record and review it. And the veins are clearly visible--pity it never occurred to me to take a photo--I had not expected that kind of visible change! And yes, I use the capsules on all parts of my head and nape of the neck in a rough kind of rotation.

 

[Hip]

I use the capsules on all parts of my head and nape of the neck in a rough kind of rotation.

Over the last few days, when I have been applying my infrared LED illuminator to my head, I have been using around 4 minutes per area, and after this time moving to the next area, for a total time of 30 minutes.


Regarding the Vielight: if we want to target the hypothalamus and pituitary glands (since ME/CFS involves HPA-axis dysfunction), my thoughts are that you would need to push the LED right into your nasal cavity (though it might be very uncomfortable), towards the far end of the cavity, above which the hypothalamus and pituitary are located. You can see the position of the hypothalamus and pituitary (hypophyse) in the image below.

 

[Chris]

@Hip; it is impossible to ascertain for sure just how far the light from an 810 penetrates--but one can judge how effective it is over time. You can't push these things right up your nose--they have an external clip that holds them in place--there is a curved plastic space between the clip holder and the diode housing, and I like to get the wing of my nostril touching that curve. You can't get it further in than that. So I don't know just what is causing the really quite major improvement in my BP regulation, but suspect it is almost certainly largely due to the 810, though the 633 working on my endothelium and sending signals through the blood stream may have been playing a part too. And maybe the transcranial MED-X units too...

The fact is that research is suggesting that this light stuff may be working in many ways besides the well-documented effect on that molecule in the chain that produces ATP within the mitos. Karu has suggested that ATP is not only the energy molecule, but also acts as a signaling molecule--signaling just what to just whom? I think it is best not to worry too much about exactly what is triggered by this stuff, and focus on results, giving it time, and backing off for a break if one feels too much excitation or whatever. So far results seem to suggest that there is very little danger, if any, of long term damage, and considerable evidence that these things generally are beneficial, but that one can, and especially perhaps we with ME, can overtreat and induce inflammation. So I am going to carry on--for the time being, my present routine of daily or even twice daily use of the 810, with the 633 sometimes taking its place, while adding a modest amount of pulsed MED-X transcranial maybe twice a week--something like the schedule Lew Lim proposes for his Neuro--seems to be working, though I will take a break from the MED-X units after two or three weeks. I am really impressed by what this has done for my BP regulation--real change for the better, and the virtual elimination of what has been probably my most intense symptom. Overall I just plain feel better, though my exercise ability has not yet changed much. Hope that will be next....

 

[Hip]

The fact is that research is suggesting that this light stuff may be working in many ways besides the well-documented effect on that molecule in the chain that produces ATP within the mitos.

It certainly would seem possible, even probable, that red and near infrared light, which penetrate tissues, may effect molecules other than the cytochrome c oxidase (aka: complex IV) in the mitochondrial respiratory chain that produces ATP. But work still needs to be done to identify any other molecules that are affected by light, so that we can know what the appropriate light wavelengths are to target those molecules.

I found the following studies very interesting:

The role of nitric oxide in low level light therapy — Michael R Hamblin

Red and near-IR light is primarily absorbed by cytochrome c oxidase (unit four in the mitochondrial respiratory chain). Nitric oxide produced in the mitochondria can inhibit respiration by binding to cytochrome c oxidase and competitively displacing oxygen, especially in stressed or hypoxic cells. If light absorption displaced the nitric oxide and thus allowed the cytochrome c oxidase to recover and cellular respiration to resume, this would explain many of the observations made in LLLT. Why the effect is only seen in hypoxic, stressed or damaged cells or tissues? How the effects can keep working for some time (hours or days) post-illumination? Why increased NO concentrations are sometimes measured in cell culture or in animals? How blood flow can be increased? Why angiogenesis is sometimes increased after LLLT in vivo?

Biological Effects of Low Level Laser Therapy

The activity of cytochrome c oxidase is inhibited by nitric oxide (NO). This inhibition can be explained by a direct competition between NO and O2 for the reduced binuclear center CuB/a3 of cytochrome c oxidase, and is reversible. It was proposed that laser irradiation could reverse this inhibition by photodissociating NO from its binding sites. Because this coordinate binding is much weaker than a covalent bond, this dissociation is possible by LLL. The dissociation of NO from Cox increases the respiration rate. Light can indeed reverse the inhibition caused by NO binding to cytochrome oxidase, both in isolated mitochondria and in whole cells.

So when it comes to cytochrome c oxidase (CCO), the benefits of LLLT may come from removing NO from the CCO molecule, thus allowing CCO to properly perform its job within mitochondria.


Prof Martin Pall has proposed ME/CFS might involve elevated nitric oxide levels. And NO is released by the immune system to fight viruses and bacteria. Thus it could be that cytochrome c oxidase is over-exposed to NO in ME/CFS, and low level light therapy may be beneficial in addressing this.


Increased NO concentrations observed after LLLT (which I assume in this theory come from the NO liberated from CCO by light) might explain the lowered blood pressure you have observed, @Chris.

 

[Chris]

@Hip--thanks, it might well be part of the situation. But my BP was not so much steadily high as subject to serious spiking, and I strongly suspect that ANS regulation had been dislocated in some way--I have other symptoms often associated with ANS dysfunction--dry eyes, etc. But it certainly is improvement not to be awakened at midnight by a strong sensation of discomfort, and discover my BP is 190/95! In addition, however, the general level is now lower most of the time, and these processes may well be part of the reason.

 

[Chris]

@Hip; I think you are right about that NO thing, and thanks for your thorough review of it. I had forgotten that for a short while I took a NO donator drug, Isosorbate Dinitrate, to reduce those BP spikes (rapidly discovered that I had to take much less than the suggested dose) which helped a bit for a while, and then added more beets to my diet, which took over the role of the drug, until the Vielights solved the problem at a more basic level. Still eating those beets, greens and all.



Prompted by suggestions and observations from Hip and Scott, and by my very recent decision not to take up the Vielight Neuro for which I was finally eligible, having been on the waiting list for long enough to have forgotten that I was on it, I have been rethinking some of my current protocol.

The Vielight people tell me that we may have the results of their ongoing study of the Neuro for Alzheimer’s by December, at which point we may have a better idea of how much the addition of more power to the 810 intranasal unit, plus the addition of those four transcranial capsules, make to the simple 810 plus 633 combination which helped Rudy, and a few others to a lesser degree, as already recorded on the Vielight website.

In the meantime, agonizing a little over my refusal of a Neuro (which I could maybe barely afford if I shared it with a friend), I have reread carefully Chapter 4 of "The Brain’s Way of Healing," and mulled over a couple of things again. The first, and this is seconded by Scott’s description of his current protocol, is the description Doidge gives of Kahn’s sequencing on pp.140-141: first, red light at 660nm, then NIR at 840, each for some time; only then lasers, first again at 660, and finally a probe at 840 again. The principle is "by the time the laser probe is applied, the superficial tissues have already been saturated with so many photons from the red and infrared LEDs that the laser creates a cascade of photons in the tissues...". Presumably this is true of all steps in the sequence–we know that NIR penetrates deeper than red light. I can’t duplicate the whole sequence, but I can use the 633 intranasal for, say, 10 minutes, and follow that immediately with the 810 for 25 minutes, hoping that this will enable it to penetrate more deeply and thoroughly than before. This would duplicate the first two stages used by Kahn, and applied by Scott with his units. The hope is that the preparatory use of the 633 would (might) enable the 810 to penetrate deeper, and maybe largely duplicate the effect of the supercharged version used in the Neuro. Lew says he has increased the power from around 31 to 45mW, and maybe...

A second issue; Scott has been using his devices on the back of his neck and base of his skull, following Kahn’s practice ( see in particular Doidge’s description of his treatment of Gaby on pp.145-149.) The rationale is this: "Since 1993 Kahn had been treating the cervical spine in people with neck issues, and he noticed, unexpectedly, that when a patient also had a central nervous system or brain problem, those symptoms often improved too. He realized that the brain’s cerebrospinal fluid, which flows around the spinal cord, was probably flowing back to the brain after being irradiated by the light." (P. 146). And by following a few minutes using Continuous Wave (does not penetrate as deeply) with more minutes using Pulsed at say 50% Duty cycle (penetrates deeper) I can get that graded benefit with the transcranial MED-X units too, as Scott is currently doing with his Bioflex units.

This seems clearly to have worked in the case of Gaby, who had serious brain issues, though not ME. So I think I can maybe get pretty much all of what the Neuro promises with the devices (633/810, MED-X capsules) I already have, and in addition keep the ability to treat any body part, including all the skull and top of the neck. Now I just have to stop myself from overtreating, and figure out if with the new protocol for using the intranasal units I also have to take breaks from them too, and figure out how to sleep without their help. I will post after some use of this revised protocol, if I can just quite overtreating.....

So "farewell" to the phantasy of adding a shared Neuro to my arsenal which I can scarcely afford, and "hello" again to the units I already have with a hope that I can further optimize them for my situation. I am thinking this aloud here as it were, selfishly but maybe it will be of interest/use to anyone else in making their own decisions.

 

[Hip]

@Chris: There is a manufacture here selling LLLT devices. An 850nm infrared unit costs $219 — still high compared to the infrared illuminators you can buy on eBay for less than $10, which do more or less the same thing.