The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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LED red intranasal light therapy

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Lou, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am just looking at the extraordinarily high price of the Vielight 810 Infrared device ($499) and the Vielight 633 Red device ($299).

    Do you know that you can buy the red LEDs or infrared LEDs contained in these Vielight devices for less than $1 !?

    If you look here on eBay, you will see 9 volt red LEDs for sale for less than $1 each. And if you look here on eBay, you see 9 volt infrared LEDs for sale for a similar price.

    All you have to do is connect one of these LEDs bought on eBay to a regular 9 volt PP3 battery, and you can create a home-made unit that will work just the same as a Vielight, but at a tiny fraction of the cost. You can even find LED lights on eBay already fitted with PP3 battery clips, that clip straight onto a 9 volt battery.

    A cheap home-made unit for a few dollars should allow people to experiment with intranasal light therapy without paying out $hundreds.



    Note that the precise wavelength of light of the LED does not matter much. I have seen various research papers looking at the biological effects of red and infrared light, and there is no one magic wavelength. Red light does tend to have slightly different effects compared to infrared light, but the precise wavelength of the light is not that important.

    So the Vielight 633 unit uses a red LED pumping out light at a wavelength of 633 nm, but any red LED with a wavelength in the range of say 620 nm to 660 nm should work equally well.

    Equally, for the Vielight 810 Infrared unit which outputs invisible infrared light at a wavelength of 810 nm, any infrared LED with a similar wavelength (such as 850 nm) should work equally well.

    I used to build electronic devices as a kid, so I know one or two things about electronic components.
     
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  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    @Hip, you should make and sell a competitor!

    Late to the party, but I just got the Vielight 810. Looking forward to being cured soon. :D
     
  3. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hip, welcome and good luck. I am not an electronic whiz, so will leave the manufacture to Lew Lim. And just point out that his devices include a high quality transparent housing and well designed clip and also a tiny lens moulded into the tip to control the aim and dispersion. The 810 also has a circuit that generates a pulsed light at 10hz and 50% duty cycle, figures based on more research.

    I will also point out that besides having presented that poster paper on Rudy and Alzheimer's at a conference on this stuff, he is now paying for studies using his new Neuro on both Alzheimer's patients and kids with ASD; this costs money, but hopefully may promote this mode of therapy for wider use. So good luck with your project, but I will stick with Lew's products.
     
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  4. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    @Hip, I read a research paper that showed a graph showing absorbency curves for what I understood were the three main tissues in the brain - water, melanin, and something I've forgotten - for the different EM wavelengths and there's a window at 610 and 833nm. It's got some width to it but I don't know that it covered the whole red spectrum. Basically, to get penetration into the brain you don't want all this stuff absorbing the light before it can get some way into the brain.

    I also have no clue about electronics and would be wary of putting a naked LED up my nose and wouldn't know how to get it to stay there but for those who are not as incapable in the face of practical things, your advice sounds very helpful! These are expensive things and patients are broke.
     
  5. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I have chronic dry, congested sinuses. There's no mucus, no blood, just dry and narrow. I've tried various things but nothing helps, yes steroids but the effect wears off within hours and i don't like to use it chronically.
    LED therapy sounds interesting. Anyone here with the same problem who found relief with LED therapy?
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There's a good but lengthy article on the theory and practice of making your own red or infrared light therapy devices on this webpage, which includes the following light absorbency graph:

    Graph showing the peak absorption wavelengths (at 620, 680,
    760 and 820 nm) of light by mitochondrial complex IV
    opti.gif

    Note: 620 nm = orange-red, 680 nm = deep red, 760 nm = invisible infrared, 820 nm = invisible infrared. For more info on LEDs hues, see: LED Color Chart.

    My understanding is that the absorption of light by mitochondrial complex IV (also known as: cytochrome c oxidase) is thought to form the main basis of the biological effect of red / infrared low level light therapy (photobiomodulation). This study indicates how infrared light of 808 nm boosts mitochondrial complex IV.

    HERE is an aBay search for red LEDs with a wavelength precisely in the 620 nm to 630 nm range, which corresponds to one of the peak absorptions on the above graph. (Note: the brightness of an LED's light output is measured in mcd, and any LED you see with a specified brightness above around 5000 mcd is going to be nice and bright).



    On eBay and other places you can get pre-wired LEDs, which means they have typically 6 inch long wires attached to them, and the whole LED is sheaved in insulating plastic. So fine to stick straight in your nose. In any case, with a low voltage like 9 volts, it is completely safe.

    Some Pre-Wired LEDs
    Pre Wired LEDs.jpg
    You can typically buy 10 of the above pre-wired LEDs for a few dollars​

    When I made my own red LED intranasal light therapy device a few years ago, I just put a small blob of Blu-tack around the LED wire leads to help hold it in my nostril. Not the most elegant of constructions, but all I wanted to do was check to see if intranasal light therapy might provide some benefits, without having to spend money.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  7. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    That's going to be part of it, at least - maybe I've misunderstood the relevant info. I thought the key thing was to get the light through the top of your nose enough (through all the water and whatnot) that enough light was getting into the cells in your brain.

    How did you get on?
     
  8. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    @Hip--I second Sasha's request for an update on how you got on with your device--for how long did you use it or them, did it help, and what frequency did you choose? I admire your knowledgeable bricolage--beyond me, though.

    I will add a few things; if you read Lew Lim's "Inventor's notes" (I think that is the title) that he appends to the 810, you will see that he sees the 633 and 810 as rather differently aimed. He sees the 633's energy as being mostly absorbed by the capillaries in the nasal cavity, and having its effect on the body's total circulation, while the 810 deliberately chooses a longer wavelength and pulsed delivery in order to get substantially deeper penetration in order to reach the brain through the thin bone partition around the brain in order to have some energizing and improving effect on neural function, particularly reaching the hippocampus and brain stem areas that house much of the autonomic nervous system etc. He has chosen to pulse at 10hz to chime with some of the brain's basic rhythms (don't know how relevant this is, but there is good evidence for the better penetration of pulsed energy) and 50% duty cycle to slow down the energy delivery--again, there is some evidence that low and slow is the best way to deliver this form of energy. Lew Lim thinks of the 633 and 810 as overlapping but complementary I think, and I suspect he is right.

    There is also some evidence that the increase in ATP production sets off various signaling pathways, etc, to effect some changes throughout the body.
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Sasha @Chris
    My main experiments with low level light therapy / low level laser therapy / photobiomodulation / biostimulation started not with these intranasal devices, but with a much more powerful infrared LED spotlight directed to my head.

    Although you can pay a lot of money for an infrared LED spotlights used for low level light therapy, again there is a much cheaper approach, which is buying an infrared spotlight used for nighttime CCTV surveillance cameras in the street.

    Such nighttime infrared spotlights are called infrared LED illuminators, and again if you look on eBay, you can get them for as little as $10. These will typically contain a cluster around 50 of the individual LED you get in the Vielight, so there is a lot more light output compared to the intranasal device. And you can also get 100-LED illuminators.

    An Infrared 48 LED Illuminator Spotlight
    Infrared Illuminator.jpg

    The near infrared range does have a bit more tissue penetration than the visible red light, so these powerful infrared LED illuminators are best placed for getting light through your skull bones and into your brain. (I don't think there is much evidence to show that pulsing the light makes much improvement though).

    I set up such an infrared LED illuminator facing the back of my head and neck, and used it for many hours each day for several months. I also switched, and set it facing the front of my face. However, in either case I did not notice any benefits, even after months of daily use.



    The intranasal light therapy I just tried for a few days, so I can't say that I tested it much. But given my failure to get any results with the more powerful infrared LED illuminators, I did not hold out much hope for the intranasal version.

    Is there any research showing that intranasal light therapy can have any medical benefits? There does not seem to be many studies showing benefits for even regular low level light therapy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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  10. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    @Thinktank; I and a friend have both found that both the 633 and the 810 do improve air flow through the nose, though initially there may be some irritation and even in her case, though not mine, the expulsion of some bloody crusty material. But this may not be a universal response.

    @Hip; I do not have either the energy or time to produce a serious bibliography of studies, but suggest you spend some time on both of Lew Lim's sites, vielight.com and mediclights.com (the latter has much more info, including essays with bibliographies, though it takes a bit of time and patience to work one's way through the site). There you will find an essay on the design process that led to the 810 which covers quite a few points, including the issue of pulsed vs. continuous wave--there is in fact some research showing the greater power and penetration of pulsed, and the diminished danger of heating effects. You might also spend some time exploring Fred Kahn's Bioflexlaser website, where he gives some pretty convincing photo-illustrated "Case Studies," though focused on explicit physical problems rather than our more subtle neurological stuff.

    Names to look for (through Google as well as PubMed, since much of this stuff is published in journals not included by PubMed) are T. Karu and M. Hamblin for some of the basic stuff, and M.Naeser for specific issues, though many more are getting into this game. There are also signs that pathways other than the now well-established cytochrome one are now being explored--see Timon Cheng-Yi Liu, "Randomized, Double-Blind, and Placebo-Controlled Clinic Report of Intranasal Low-Intensity Laser Therapy on Vascular Diseases", 2012. There are possible effects on stem-cell production, and many other possible pathways. The clear fact is that these therapies have some power, and as I stated in an earlier post, the evidence as I read it is that for us the dangers are in too high and/or continuous application--I am again having to remind myself "go slow and low, and take breaks."

    You do raise a question in my mind, though--why, with such low expectations, did you spend time and your talents on what appeared to you an unlikely target? I started from reading Chap 4 of Norman Doidge's "The Brain's
    Way of Healing," which convinced me that there was real power in this modality, though I have been discovering that how to best apply it to our disease is problematical.
     
  11. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    The more I reflect on my experience with laser therapy, the more I think it may be most helpful to those that are severe and very severely affected.

    When I had my first treatment, I was house bound for the preceding 4 weeks - the sickest I had ever been. The laser therapy allowed me to be more productive with lessened severity of symptoms - moderately affected I'd say. It was not a cure, but modulated by over-excited nervous system symptom.

    So I'm thinking if folks are in the moderate category, benefits may be minimal, if mildly affected, perhaps no discernible benefit. Perhaps those that are severe and very severe may experience the biggest gains.

    Those that have tried laser, what severity of symptoms would you say you had when starting treatment?
    Mild / Moderate / Severe / Very Severe?
     
  12. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    @Scott--an interesting theory; I would rate myself as probably "moderate," but so far specific symptoms have improved, but overall energy has not. Will write more later. But I do have a friend my age who definitely does not have ME/CFS, but has also had significant improvement of specific symptoms using a 633 most--but not all, nights--she does take breaks--since end of April. I suspect it may be more that some symptoms respond better and/or sooner than others? For both of us there has been improvement in some cardiovascular symptoms, including Blood Pressure and venous and sleep.
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks for that pointer. It seems most of the intranasal applications are still investigational. There are studies showing that the intravenous blood irradiation version of low level light therapy (where a low level laser therapy device is placed inside a vein) has effect, and that studies that suggest transcranial infrared light therapy may have an effect.

    Not too impressed with the transcranial mice studies though, since the mouse cranium I expect is thinner than a human's, and the mouse brain is much smaller, meaning that infrared light will have a much easier time traversing the skull bone and getting into all the areas of a mouse brain. However, in a human brain, what infrared light does penetrate through the skull bone will likely only travel in the order of millimeters into the brain. So it will only impact the outer surface of the human brain. Thus a positive result in a mouse study may not translate to human applications.



    I was really hoping red and near infrared low level light therapy would be effective, but it did not appear to be in my case. At least, I did not notice any effects from it.

    I have had an interest in light, electric and magnetic brain stimulation techniques for decades, predating my coming down with ME/CFS about 10 years ago.

    In general, what I found is that, unfortunately, a lot of brain stimulation techniques that worked very well for me prior to getting ME/CFS ceased to provide any benefits or effects after I developed this disease.

    Here are some of the things I have tried over the years, both before and after developing ME/CFS:


    ➤ Light simulation techniques:
    Red low level light therapy
    Near infrared low level light therapy
    Far infrared light therapy (as you get in an infrared sauna) — worked well for me before getting ME/CFS
    Full spectrum lighting (for seasonal affective disorder) — works well for me
    Strobe light brainwave entrainment

    ➤ Electric simulation techniques:
    TENS unit therapy (milliamp current stimulation)
    Transcranial direct-current stimulation — seems to reduce my ME/CFS fatigue a bit (military applications too)
    Cranial electrotherapy stimulation (Alpha Stim®)
    Auricular vagus nerve stimulation

    ➤ Magnetic simulation techniques:
    Picotesla magnetic fields (used in the Apollo moon missions) — worked well for me before getting ME/CFS
    Pulsed magnetic field therapy — worked well for me before getting ME/CFS



    Here are some details of the benefits the above techniques provided me:

    Far infrared light therapy I found was a great mood booster. I have a 1200 Watt far infrared ceramic radiant heater, and after 20 minutes of bathing my (unclothed) torso in far infrared light / heat, to the point that I start sweating, it would put me in a really wonderfully elated mood. Almost as if the far infrared heat was the good feeling you get on a hot summer's day, but bottled and made available at anytime.

    Prof Martin Pall did a study to show that far infrared sauna increases tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) levels, which can have a mood elevating effect, and I suspect that this may be why far infrared light had such a positive effect on my mood. I don't have a sauna, just a portable far infrared heater that uses the same ceramic infrared bulbs found in an IR sauna.

    Sadly, this mood boost effect no longer seems to work now that I have ME/CFS, which is a great shame, because I suffer from mild depression and significant anhedonia as comorbid conditions to my ME/CFS, so I could do with a mood boost.

    Pulsed magnetic field therapy applied to my brain also worked wonders for my mood, and particularly seemed to boost creativity and lateral thinking. It generally sharpened and energized my mind. It was very nice. This therapy continued to work for me in the first few early years of my ME/CFS, but eventually with increasing brain fog it stopped working almost entirely. Previously my brain had been very responsive to this treatment, but it feels like ME/CFS slowly turned my brain wooden and unresponsive.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  14. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    @Hip--wow, you have been active trying things out! I actually bought a BioMat intending to use it as a sauna, but found that going to high heat just drained me of energy--I figured because our heat reducing mechanisms like sweating are broken. So now I just use it at low heat to relax, and it does help there. Before this LLLT stuff that was my only high cost exploration.

    I did have a session with a PEMF machine--an MRS 2000--free at a local store--nothing dramatic, but then decided I could spend money more usefully reducing my exposure to RF radiation (my ME began 4 months after moving into an apt high rise topped by a forest of antennae--later discovered that the level of HF pollution in my power lines was off the chart, and later still that RF near the building was very high--so I strongly suspect that was the major trigger for my illness; now living in a better space, but "smart meters" have been added to the mix. You probably know that Martin Pall has now identified this as a major health threat, and he is joined by Paul Heroux of McGill in identifying modes by which low level -non-thermal--radiation can damage biological tissue.

    I am interested in modulation of the vagal nerve--I know there are devices that can do that--any info on that?

    If you go to Chap 4 of Doidge's book, and check out studies led by M. Naeser (and her current research for the Veterans) I think you will find convincing evidence that transcranial LLLT can have powerful effects despite all that bone; I am pretty sure that it was overuse of my MED-X units that triggered my relative crash after first improving my energy level noticeably. The only studies on MS so far done that I have found both state that low level and taking breaks are essential in our kind of disease, and so I am more and more relying on the intranasal units to do that. Lew Lim reports that a few ME people have had reduced fatigue using a 633 or 655-no details. Two people being treated by Fred Kahn (read that chapter!) report the same rhythm of improvement and then a downer---and that Kahn has decided he has been overtreating them. Slow, low and take breaks I think will be the answer, if there is an answer for our kind....there is more work/exploration waiting. And I think there is a difference between 10 Joules delivered in 10mins and in 20 mins, so when I use the MED-X units now I pulse them at 10hz and 50duty cycle--takes longer, but I think works better.

    My dream is to find a group here working on this, and maybe finally persuade Lew Lim or Fred Kahn to do a serious study on our disease to figure out the best protocol--I suspect Toronto is a possible locale, since Kahn, MED-X, Lew Lim and Vielight, and Anita Saltmarche are all located there, together with an up and coming ME researcher--dreaming in technicolour, no doubt, but.....
     
  15. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    @Hip

    Have you tried medical marijuana for your symptoms?
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I again knocked up something together cheaply myself to make my own vagus nerve stimulator (which had mixed results, sometimes good effects, but on most days no noticeable effects). However, if you want to buy a device, one member of this forum pointed me to the following inexpensive equipment for sale (in the UK) that she used:

    TENS machine and ear clips:

    http://www.bodyclock.co.uk/acatalog/First_Choice_Plus.html
    http://www.bodyclock.co.uk/acatalog/auricular_clips.html

    I have also seen similar clips for sale in the US:
    http://www.tenspros.com/Electro-Stim-Ear-Clips-for-Depression-Anxiety-Pain-and-More_p_196.html

    In this setup there are two clips used per ear: one clip attaches to the ear lobe, the other to the tragus part of the ear. Then the electric current from the TENS machine runs between these two electrodes, running from the ear lobe to up to the tragus. Where the current runs is the general area where the vagus nerve is located in the ear.

    TENS machine settings: Pulse rate = 30, Pulse width = 200, continuous mode. These are the settings used in this trial:

    http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/2014/08/29/system-reset-reduce-fight-flight-respons



    Ever since I had viral meningitis, an infection which seemed to cause some brain damage and a permanent loss of mental faculty, I found marijuana will create a highly perturbed, anxious mental state; whereas previously it would always be relaxing and pleasant.

    One of the things I would like to do is repair the damage the infection caused to my brain, but looking around online for meningitis or encephalitis brain repair and rejuvenation approaches, there seems to be very little available. One thing I would like to try though is hyperbaric oxygen, which can apparently help with brain repair.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  17. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    @Hip--sorry to hear about that meningitis and its possible effects. I still think you really should read carefully Doidge's "The Brain's Way of Healing"--besides the possibilities of LLLT there are things like the PoNS device in Chap 7, currently being trialed at McGill/Montreal Neuro for MS (not too far from ME), and some of the stories in Chap 4 may make you reconsider LLLT a bit; M.Naeser's studies do seem to show that it is capable of doing remarkable work with physical brain injury (that is, concussion etc--not skull penetration stuff) and stroke damage. Things do get stickier for diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, though there too some improvement seems possible.
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This study by Naeser on transcranial near-infrared light treatment on two patients seems to indicate something I discovered myself, namely that the benefits of near-infrared light disappear once you stop treatment:

    Patient 1: developed post-concussive syndrome (which is more or less identical to ME/CFS) after a traumatic brain injury:
    Patient 2: history of multiple concussions, and one major one, and then developed cognitive dysfunction:
    When I used a bright red LED light on my eyes and retinas, to see if it would help the blurred vision of ME/CFS, it did seem to help, but the effects were not permanent, because if I stop treatment the blurred vision would very quickly worsen. So there is no actual healing taking place.

    Though I understand red / near infrared light may have a permanent healing effect for the treatment of battlefield laser injuries to the retinas of soldiers.



    Still, if transcranial near-infrared light treatment could provide significant benefits in ME/CFS, then there would be no problem in applying daily treatments.

    In the above-mentioned Naeser study, the patient's placed the LED light on the forehead area (see Fig 1 of the study):

    Patient 1 placed LED lights on forehead area
    Transcranial Light Stimulation.png
    Location of right and left forehead placement areas for
    transcranial LED treatments performed by the patient at
    home, using a single, circular-shaped cluster head. The
    usual treatment time is 10 min per area (13.3 J/cm2).


    Patient 2 placed the LED lights bilaterally on the forehead, high-frontal, high-parietal, and temporoparietal areas.

    When I was applying this LED light treatment on myself, I often placed the LED light at the lower back of my head, where the nape of my neck meets the bottom of my skull; this area is roughly the location of the brainstem, which has been implicated in ME/CFS (it is also an area where I used to feel a dull inflammatory sensation, which I assumed might be due to chronic brain inflammation).

    ME/CFS patients could easily try this transcranial LED light therapy by buying for less than $10 an infrared LED illuminator on eBay. These illuminators be powered by a standard 12 volt power adaptor plug. (You need to put a bit of Blu-tac or dark tape over the illuminator's photosensor though, to trick the illuminator into thinking it is nighttime; these illuminators are designed to only go on at night).



    Regarding Doidge's book: I find it very hard to read books these days, since the meningitis cause me to get quite bad ADHD. I can read information when it is presented compactly in short articles, but have difficulty reading large volumes of text. In fact, I have not read a single book for 10 years now, since the meningitis; prior to that I would read at least once book a week. I did have quick glance at Doidge's book on Google Books though.

    The PoNS Device looks interesting, but currently costs $5,000, and has very little research behind it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  19. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    I think the question of whether improvements stop upon cessation of treatment is open--and of course may change after a long period of use. Naeser in that "Two Case Report" you refer to also writes this: "Neurogenesis in the TBI-damaged brain is not the rare event it was once thought to be. LLLT has stimulated neuron repair in the spinal column in an animal model, and could increase neurogenesis in TBI-damaged brain tissue. LLLT increases expression (and activation) of growth factor-B and vascular growth factor (VEGF) which may contribute to positive brain remodelling after TBI." In the case of myself and my friend, there seems to have been already visible change in leg veins in myself, and significant improvement in venous problem in my friend, and shortish breaks in use of the Vielights seem to have no effect on this.

    My guess would be that for quite a while breaks will lead to a slow regression, but that eventually progress may become more permanent. Though for an 82 year old like myself the word "permanent" has lost some of its meaning! In any case, if I can restore some better function for a few years at the cost of near daily application of some form of LLLT, I will think it well worthwhile. In Doidge's chapter we do meet one woman for whom change seems to have become permanent enough.

    I did not think the PoNS was currently available--I am not going out to buy one if it is, but a visit to the website of the company making the things, Helius Medical, did not reveal any sale signs--where did you find this price?

    The thing is of course investigational--as are all therapies for us except CBT and GET. I'll take my chance with the investigational process, if there is some reasonable evidence--Rituximab, for instance. Here is the URL of a still active Polish clinic study that is still improving --they claim--MS patients, though they make it clear that they are not talking cure.

    http://www.cellgentherapeutics.com/uploads/MS_Study_2003.pdf
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It mentions it on this page.
     

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