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Just a few sprays of a home-made Dr Brewer antifungal nasal spray for nasal mold triggered significant PEM

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
What are your herx symptoms hip?

The Herx symptoms are feeling much more tired, much more brain fogged. Also increased depression and a feeling of increased mental frailty.

It is extraordinary how a little nasal spray could zonk me like this. During the hay fever season, I sometimes use an over-the-counter corticosteroid nasal spray for hay fever, and get no side effects from this.

I also regularly use a home-made nasal spray consisting of arginine pyroglutamate dissolved in distilled water, which I found has noticeable anti-anxiety effects (arginine is known to reduce anxiety). And I get no such side effects from this.

It is only when I spray this biofilm-busting nasal spray into my nose does the Herx appear. And it appears very quickly, within days of starting a once daily use of this spray.

The Herx does add credence to Dr Joseph Brewer's, Dr Ritchie Shoemaker's and Dr Igor Markov's theories of there being toxin-producing micro-organisms in the nasal or nasopharynx areas.

And it might also relate to the work of Dr Osamu Hotta, who was able to cure some cases of the ME/CFS-like illness that arises after HPV vaccination by treating the nasopharynx area with zinc chloride. So a lot of different researchers and clinicians have focused on the nasal and nasopharynx areas.



For what it's worth, some of my bad Nystatin herx's would up to a week. Also - word of warning - often by the time they hit it was already too late, as in, the Herxheimer reaction would be delayed, to the point where I should have stopped well before I did (of course there's no way of knowing that until it hits)

This is what noticed with the nasal spray. I took the spray for two days in a row, then stopped. But the bad Herx day hit me two days after I stopped.



Here are the ingredients of the anti-biofilm nasal spray I am currently using:

In 50 ml of distilled water I added
  • 50 mg of disodium EDTA (makes a 0.1% solution of disodium EDTA) — this is a biofilm-buster
  • 250 mg of N-acetyl cysteine (makes a 0.5% solution of NAC) — this is another biofilm-buster
  • 500 mg of glutamine (makes a 1% solution of glutamine) — this can help fix leaky gut
  • 450 mg of sodium chloride (to create physiological saline) — makes the spray more comfortable on the nose

After reading the Dr MyHill stuff about iodine posted above, I later added some povidone-iodine, to make a 0.2% solution of povidone-iodine (adding 1 ml of the 10% povidone-iodine solution I have to 50 ml results in a 0.2% solution).


I added some glutamine because this is one of the best supplements for fixing leaky gut. Leaky gut is where the tight junctions which hold together the mucous membranes have become weakened, and so toxins can pass through these junctions in the mucous membranes and into the bloodstream.

I thought that perhaps if the nasal mucous membranes were leaky, this would let in toxins into the bloodstream, and possibly glutamate might help counter this.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
Word on the glutamine - I've also tried it to help with leaky gut but it caused a pretty intense reaction. I'm not entirely sure why, I'm very sensitive though (have MCAS) and I think it may have something to do with methylation, which is also a trigger for me, but I thought I'd mention just in case. It might be worth trying the ingredients individually in the spray if that's possible so you know what's provoking the reaction.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
Word on the glutamine - I've also tried it to help with leaky gut but it caused a pretty intense reaction. I'm not entirely sure why, I'm very sensitive though (have MCAS) and I think it may have something to do with methylation, which is also a trigger for me, but I thought I'd mention just in case. It might be worth trying the ingredients individually in the spray if that's possible so you know what's provoking the reaction.

Yes, I also had worsening of ME/CFS symptoms from glutamine. But not when I take glutamine orally; I only get adverse effects when I tried an anti-leaky gut experiment, and administered glutamine as a rectal suppository.

I have thread on this, but basically, you can have a leaky small intestine, and/or a leaky colon. If you have SIBO, then a leaky small intestine might be an issue. But otherwise, nearly all of your gut bacteria are actually in the colon, so in terms of trying to stop bacterial toxins entering the bloodstream through a leaky gut, it's probably a leaky colon that you want to target, rather than a leaky small intestine.

But I suspect oral glutamine will not reach the colon, because as an amino acid, I imagine it will be absorbed and digested as it passes along the small intestine. So this is why I started thinking in terms of how to get glutamine into the colon.


I guess I should, as you suggest, try the nasal spray ingredients individually. But I did get similar Herx effects from just a 0.5% solution of disodium EDTA on its own, but no Herx from 0.5% of NAC on its own. That's why in my current spray, I reduced the concentration of the disodium EDTA by five times, down to 0.1%.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
I have thread on this, but basically, you can have a leaky small intestine, and/or a leaky colon. If you have SIBO, then a leaky small intestine might be an issue. But otherwise, nearly all of your gut bacteria are actually in the colon, so in terms of trying to stop bacterial toxins entering the bloodstream through a leaky gut, it's probably a leaky colon that you want to target, rather than a leaky small intestine.

Yeh this makes sense. I was aware the small intestine should be fairly sterile with the vast majority of bacteria located in the colon. But it was also my understanding that leaky gut tends to be associated with SIBO, and indeed that part of the cause of leaky gut was the presence of bacteria where it shouldn't be; aka the small intestine. I wasn't aware you could get leaky gut from the colon but then I guess there's no reason why you shouldn't. I'll have a look at your thread now.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
My initial thoughts on leaky gut were that it isn't recognised by the NHS as an actual disease...

My experience of the NHS is that anything even vaguely related to the intestines and their knowledge completely shuts down. I've been utterly shocked by it. I've seen over 5 NHS gastroenterologists - some at highly regarded hospitals in London - and my experience was beyond shocking. I was told by two they weren't even permitted to LOOK at the results of a Genova Stool test as they weren't trained in matters pertaining to gut bacteria!

Even with private Gastro's it took me hunting around quite a few before I got anywhere. Shocking. Anyway, rant over.

As for leaky gut, I don't see why it should be such a crazy proposition that our intestinal lining could become compromised. Particularly when you consider the trillions of bacteria living down there, all the endotoxins they release, the mess we cause to that bacterial culture with diet and antibiotics, etc. Seems to me like it would be the first thing you'd think would be possible.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
My initial thoughts on leaky gut were that it isn't recognised by the NHS as an actual disease...

There is no question that leaky gut (or intestinal hyperpermeability as it is referred to in studies) exists, as there a thousands of studies on it. In science, the existence of leaky gut is completely accepted.

What is more controversial (and not recognized by the NHS) is leaky gut syndrome — the idea that a leaky gut could cause or exacerbate a disease. That is because at present, there is no solid evidence that conclusively proves a leaky gut can lead to disease, only some studies which suggest that it might.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
1st dose of the iodine.

Not sure how myhill intended it to be done but I put the drops on a cotton pad and held it at the bottom of the salt inhaler.

You can really feel the iodine being inhaled, which is good. You know you're getting it in. Stings the nostrils somewhat.

Myhill says to pinch the nose and breathe out against the pressure, which puts the air up through your sinuses. You feel your ears kinda pop.

T + 10 minutes. Nothing to report in terms of symptoms.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
T+7 hours and with another go of it about 2 hours ago.

Seem to get a worsening of particular symptoms a couple of hours after breathing the iodine. Similar to what had been happening after a few days of breathing the cumin oil, so I think it was this which got the process started...

Increase in fatigue and feeling ill (although I've been pretty mild lately). But have noticed terrible pain and fragility in my joints - it's not excruciating, but it feels like if I make the wrong move I'll tear something. I'm thinking this is connective tissue because of how it feels. My shoulders and other bones are cracking very loudly with the slightest movement.

I'll maybe go most of the day tomorrow without doing it, then give it a go and observe. But the effects I'm seeing don't seem to last for very long after, few hours tops.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
Yeh if you react to stuff easily it might be an idea to go slow, the effects can be delayed in my experience, and you can always increase the dose later on but if you get it too high to begin with it could lay you out for days with a bad Herx.

But overall I'd probably take it as a good sign you're getting these reactions, it sounds like a Herx to me rather than anything allergic. And if you're getting a Herx it's likely you're killing whatever is contributing to your symptoms to begin with.
 
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seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Yeh if you react to stuff easily it might be an idea to go slow, the effects can be delayed in my experience, and you can always increase the dose later on but if you get it too high to begin with it could lay you out for days with a bad Herx.

But overall I'd probably take it as a good sign you're getting these reactions, it sounds like a Herx to me rather than anything allergic. And if you're getting a Herx it's likely you're killing whatever is contributing to your symptoms to begin with.

Been down this road so many times, but I can't help but feel hopeful.

How long do you find the delay tends to be? I'm taking small amounts of glutathione as well, so hopefully that helps to deal with any toxic die off.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
How long do you find the delay tends to be? I'm taking small amounts of glutathione as well, so hopefully that helps to deal with any toxic die off.

For me it's generally a few days of nothing, I'm taking things quite happily, and then all of a sudden it just hits me and then BAM - I'm out for a week. But then I also have MCAS which could be why it hits so hard and off such small doses, I'm pretty convinced endotoxins trigger the Mast Cells (and hence cause my symptoms).

For you, you can only be the judge. My advice would be to do less than you think you'd need for at least a few days though, and reassess. The temptation is to rush but you only lose a day or two in waiting and you save yourself a whole lot of pain in the process.

Glutathione is probably a good idea, so long as you're already 100% sure you tolerate it fine. What you don't want is to think you're getting a Herx only for it to be a reaction to the glutathione (I myself am very sensitive to glutatione).

You might want to consider other antioxidants too that are maybe less invasive, like CoQ10 or even Vitamin C. Lots of water probably helps too to flush it out. I've read some stuff about binders which might avoid the need for any of the endotoxins to get absorbed at all and frankly that to me sounds like the best option, I just don't know how feasible it is with mould located in the sinus.

Been down this road so many times, but I can't help but feel hopeful.

Well best of luck to you, it's good to be hopeful, it's all we've got! And my only experience of fungal detox and Herx reactions was a positive one, it just takes time though.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
I just used a nasal spray of 1% EDTA--pray for me!

Be very interested to hear your results Sushi. Maybe you will not be hit with such a strong Herx as I had.

I found the first day or two after starting daily disodium EDTA nasal sprays I did not noticed much, but then the Herx and PEM-like effect hit around 3 or 4 days later after starting. I then stopped the spraying, but it still took several days for the Herx/PEM to fully clear.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
Any update on this guys? How is it going? I'd be interested to hear what method are you currently trying, what dose, what are the effects, whether you've experienced any more Herx reactions, whether there's been any improvement once that passed?
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Any update on this guys? How is it going? I'd be interested to hear what method are you currently trying, what dose, what are the effects, whether you've experienced any more Herx reactions, whether there's been any improvement once that passed?

Answered this question somewhat on the glutathione thread, but will indulge a bit more here.

I've been putting 4 drops of iodine on kitchen roll, holding at the bottom of a crack salt pipe and inhaling through the nostrils and mouth. Also I've inhaled some, held my nose and breathed out with no outlet, forcing the air into the sinuses. You feel the air pressure in the head and ears. I do this 3 times a day and have been doing it for 4 days now.

I've had increased pain some time after dosing. Pins and needles down my entire arm, pretty much constant for a day - this is new. I'm starting to get a runny nose after dosing and seem to have some movement up there generally. I was taking glutathione which improved my fatigue but gave me air hunger. The air hunger was manageable up until I began taking the iodine. It's possible the iodine increased the glutathione-induced air hunger, but the effects of the iodine alone on air hunger are very random. Sometimes I'm hit with a low level of it, sometimes I'll have a low level of it and the iodine makes it better. I've stopped taking glutathione and all I take along with the iodine is cumin if I feel fatigue building up. Today I haven't needed to take as much cumin as I usually would. It's possible that despite my mild possible herx reactions, that my general condition is improving. I need more time to be sure, but I'm very optimistic (despite being terrified of optimism).
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
I just discovered something which might explain why I get a strong Herx effect from disodium EDTA: this article (and this study) says disodium EDTA is a skin penetration enhancer, which means it the EDTA disrupts the skin protective barrier by opening tight junctions, allowing other chemicals to cross the skin and enter the body.

So if the nasal passages harbor a mold or bacterial infection releasing mycotoxins or bacterial toxins, possibly the disodium EDTA nasal spray might allow those toxins to get into the body more easily.

If so, although disodium EDTA desirably breaks down biofilms, it may also allow toxins to cross the skin, which would be undesirable.

Tetrasodium EDTA is also a skin penetration enhancer, as well as a biofilm disruptor.



So instead I may use an N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) nasal spray to break down biofilms. NAC is a good biofilm disruptor, as these studies indicate:

Although NAC in combination with blood can actually increase biofilm formation:
 
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hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
@Hip , any reason why you're specifically going down the biofilm route rather than some sort of antifungal/antimicrobial spray formulation? If I recall correctly Brewer used antifungals, and Myhill says she uses Iodine which is an antimicrobial... do you have any concern biofilm busters might be less effective at actually killing the pathogens?

Also, I note from your original post in this thread that you used NAC spray in the past and it had no side effects - does it concern you at all that it wasn't actually doing anything? I hate Herx reactions obviously, but I was always encouraged when I got them as it meant I was killing stuff that was likely contributing to my CFS.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
any reason why you're specifically going down the biofilm route rather than some sort of antifungal/antimicrobial spray formulation?

I added iodine, see my above post. But breaking down biofilms may be more important, as this is one basis by which infections become resistant to immune and antibiotic attack. (L-forms are another basis, but these are not so easy to tackle, though the Marshall Protocol may help).



I hate Herx reactions obviously, but I was always encouraged when I got them as it meant I was killing stuff that was likely contributing to my CFS.

If my above skin penetration enhancement theory of EDTA is correct, then I was not experiencing a Herx (a bacterial die-off), but rather microbial toxins in my nose getting into the bloodstream due to EDTA making the skin permeable. No benefits would arise from that.
 

Cipher

Senior Member
Messages
811
After reading the Dr MyHill stuff about iodine posted above, I later added some povidone-iodine, to make a 0.2% solution of povidone-iodine (adding 1 ml of the 10% povidone-iodine solution I have to 50 ml results in a 0.2% solution).

It seems like povidone-iodine concentrations <1.25% is safe in the nose:

PVP-I has been investigated as a topical agent via in vitro studies to determine its ciliotoxicity at varying concentrations. Kim et al. found that more concentrated solutions of 5% and 10% PVP-I were ciliotoxic, and advised caution with its use in the nose [13]. Alternatively, as an upper limit of tolerability, PVP-I diluted to 1.25% has been shown not to be ciliotoxic in vitro, while a dilution to as low as 0.01% has shown to be the lower limit of active potency [14, 15]. At our clinic, a diluted PVP-I concentration of 0.08% was arbitrarily chosen as it was deemed to fall within the safe window of activity and permitted easy mixture for patients by diluting 2 mL of commercially available 10% aque-ous Betadine into 240 mL of normal saline.
source (fulltext)


This study found that 2% povidone-iodine eliminated nasal S. aureus biofilm in mice:
Effects of povidone-iodine composite on the elimination of bacterial biofilm

Abstract

Background: Povidone-iodine (PVP-I) is well known as an antiseptic and exhibits extensive activity against various pathogens. However, due to its uniquely unpleasant nature, it cannot be used locally to deactivate various sinonasal pathogens. Therefore, we developed a PVP-I composite that blocks the unpleasant odor of PVP-I for use as a local antiseptic in the sinonasal cavity and evaluated its effect on bacterial biofilm's formation and elimination in in vivo and in vitro models.

Methods: MTT, lactate dehydrogenase, and live/dead staining assay were performed to examine the cellular toxicity of PVP-I composites on the primary human nasal epithelial and RPMI 2650 cells. Crystal violet assay was performed to quantify bacterial biofilm after treating with various agents, including PVP-I and antibiotics. Hematoxylin-and-eosin staining, live/dead staining assay, and scanning electron microscopy were conducted to evaluate the effect of PVP-I on biofilm formation in a mice biofilm model.

Results: It was observed that the PVP-I composite did not have any significant toxic effect on the nasal epithelial cells. Furthermore, the PVP-I composite effectively inhibited the formation of bacterial biomass within a dose-dependent manner after 48 hours of incubation with Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Staphylococcus aureus. In mice, it effectively eliminated biofilm from the mucosa of the nasal cavity and maxillary sinus at the tested concentrations.

Conclusion: The results of this study indicate that the PVP-I composite is a promising compound that could be used locally to prevent the formation of biofilms and to eliminate them from the sinonasal cavity.
 
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