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Just a few sprays of a home-made Dr Brewer antifungal nasal spray for nasal mold triggered significant PEM

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
On the subject of nasal sprays, has anyone ever tried iodine?

This is proposed by Dr Sarah Myhill, who has a whole section on her site talking about Brewer and mycotoxins, link here.

Some passages of note:

Dr Brewer developed a test to look for mycotoxins in the urine and applied this to patients with ME. In his first paper "Detection of mycotoxins in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, Brewer et al" he found that 93% of 112 ME patients had at least one mycotoxin in their urine, with ochratoxin being the commonest. 90% of those gave a history of exposure to moulds from water damaged buildings. The idea here is that these patients were infected with moulds and, perhaps because of poor immunity, the fungi remained in the upper and lower airways.


This Brewer paper has been discussed before on PR, including here and here.

Then Myhill discusses Herxheimer reactions (this could possibly be relevant to you @Hip ):

In his second paper "Intranasal Antifungal Therapy in Patients with Chronic Illness Associated with Mold and Mycotoxins: An Observational Analysis, Brewer et al", Brewer hypothesised that although the problem may be triggered by contamination from the environment it was maintained by infection ie fungi in the airways. Many of the patients had no symptoms of rhinitis or sinusitis. Then he treated the 151 ME patients who tested positive for urinary mycotoxins with intranasal antifungals. 34% could not tolerate the treatment. Of those that did, 94% saw “marked improvement” with some patients considering themselves to be “cured”. Dr Brewer continued treatment for 12 months and followed up regularly, Patients improved clinically and this was paralleled by falling levels of mycotoxin in the urine.


The 34% of ME patients who could not tolerate the intranasal antifungals suffered two sorts of adverse events:

  • Those local to upper airways such as burning, congestion, nosebleeds, stuffiness, rhinorrhoea, and nasal/sinus pain.
  • Systemic reactions such as exacerbation of baseline symptoms such as fatigue (most common), headache, body aching and cognitive dysfunction.
These are typical die off or Herxheimer reactions - interested readers should see the Wikipedia page on Jarisch–Herxheimer reactions. Knowing what we know now I would have encouraged those patients to plug on with the therapy, perhaps reducing the treatment to a level that was tolerable then increasing. Indeed, Brewer noted that in those who did stick the treatment, the reactions subsided within 4 weeks.


And here she talks about using iodine instead of antifungals:

Dr Brewer used the antifungal drug amphotericin. We cannot get that in UK although nystatin should work well too. However, I have been using iodine. The joy of iodine is that it contact-kills all microbes, is cheap, easy and extremely safe. Already I have had some good clinical feedback. But the best clinical results will come from a multipronged approach:


I was actually under her care for a while (before I developed MCAS and had to find an immunologist to deal with that), and she actually prescribed me Iodine, which I haven't yet tried. I think the idea is to spray it into the nose? It sounds a lot more rudimentary than Brewer's nasal sprays but I assume she's had decent results with iodine or else she wouldn't be using it.

Has anyone tried this? Would people have reservations about using iodine in place of antifungals, and would they do as good a job at biofilm busting?
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
This is very interesting hb8847, thank you. Looks like this would be a good alternative for those who can't get a prescription for the other stuff. Here's how she says to do it;

Use a salt pipe (cost about £15). Drizzle Lugol’s iodine 15% 1-4 drops (whatever is tolerated) into the mouth piece– inhale through the mouth blow out through the nose. Iodine is volatile. Use Valsalva manoeuvre to blow the iodine into the middle ear and sinuses. See "Go Flight Med" Website - clearing your ears AND/OR sniff directly into the nose. Keep going until the iodine smell goes – iodine gets everywhere, and tiny amounts kill all microbes! Also sniff this directly into the nose. Do this at least three times daily but as often as convenient………..………..indeed any chronic infection, bacterial viral or fungal would be killed with this. See Sales at Dr Myhill salt pipe and Sales at Dr Myhill Lugol's 15% Iodine
Also see My Book, “The Infection Game”

In through the mouth and out through the nose seems like a very skilled party trick...

But this is promising and I may try it.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
Dr. David Brownstein used a drop of iodine with to 0.1% deluded hydrogen peroxide via nebulizer, beside many other immune-booster, in his covid patients. Googling for it found this article explaining: https://www.spiritofchange.org/nebulized-peroxide-a-simple-remedy-for-covid-19/

Dr Thomas Levy uses even up to 3% hydrogen peroxide via nebulizer against all kind of infections, but without Lugols. Free ebook with many details available here: https://rvr.medfoxpub.com/

Though I bought a nebulizer for trying their protocols - having almost year round running nose - I actually never got around trying. So I can't yet confirm how effective it is. On the other hand, the ingredients would certainly be most cheaply available everywhere.

If I ever get around trying, I'll post results.

The disodium EDTA I have I bought about 10 years ago,

Funny, my only supplement never opened or tryed is EDTA disodium powder too from purebulk.com, expired already Dec. 2011. :bang-head:
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
I wonder if the breathing in part might be to attack fungus/bacteria present in the lungs too?

Oh right, I didn't see the "inhaled" bit... thought she was wanting us to take a sip and squirt it out the nose...

It's possible that this is what she has in mind. As I mentioned on another thread, I'm trialing the inhalation of cumin essential oil (as of today), which is known to be antimicrobial. Hard to tell a herx reaction when your everday life is a herx reaction.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
I am having pretty good results from an antifungal nasal spray formulated by an ENT. It is called CitriDrops and is
homeopathic! :jaw-drop:

Before I got ill I would have argued with anybody claiming health benefits from homeopathy.

I can't say my opinion has changed at all, but I no longer feel compelled to argue. I'm genuinely happy that something has given you relief. I'm sure you've heard all the arguments before anyway. Good luck with getting better!
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
Brewer noted that in those who did stick the treatment, the reactions subsided within 4 weeks.

Interesting stuff, @hb8847.

It's encouraging to read that the Herx symptoms from the nasal spray clear up after four weeks.

I am already feeling some Herx, and I have only just started spraying my nose with disodium EDTA the day before yesterday.

I am at the moment investigating the idea of spraying or snorting into the nose some biotoxin binders. This article has a list of biotoxin binders. If you can bind to the bacterial toxins or mycotoxins in the nose as you are killing the microorganisms, perhaps this may prevent the Herx.

In fact, potentially the right biotoxin binder sprayed in your nose might even reduce ME/CFS symptoms, if we assume those symptoms are being driven by biotoxins originating from infections in the nose, sinuses or nasopharynx.


The article says chlorella, spirulina and Ecklonia cava bind to mycotoxins, although I am not sure about binding to bacteria toxins. Activated charcoal also binds to mycotoxins.

Enterosgel® looks good, as it binds to LPS. I've got some Enterosgel: it is like clear paste, and could probably be dissolved in water and sprayed into the nose.

Clays like zeolite you probably do not want to be snorting into the nose, as it can cause lung cancer if inhaled.



Dr Brewer used the antifungal drug amphotericin. We cannot get that in UK although nystatin should work well too. However, I have been using iodine. The joy of iodine is that it contact-kills all microbes, is cheap, easy and extremely safe.

Iodine looks like it might be a useful substitute for antifungals or antibiotics in a nasal spray.

I would suggest povidone-iodine might be good for a nasal spray. Povidone-iodine is a special molecule which releases iodine slowly, so has a long-lasting effect that persists for hours. It is used by surgeons to provide long-lasting disinfectant action their hands and arms during surgery. A commercial povidone-iodine product that is safe to use on the mucous membranes detailed in this post.

This study found that 0.08% povidone-iodine sinus and nasal rinse was effective for treating chronic rhinosinusitis.

Povidone-iodine is toxic if swallowed though, so cannot be used as an iodine supplement.



If I ever get around trying, I'll post results.

I could not find any studies on hydrogen peroxide as a sinusitis or rhinosinusitis treatment, although there were some alternative health websites saying that it might be helpful.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
I could not find any studies on hydrogen peroxide as a sinusitis or rhinosinusitis treatment, although there were some alternative health websites saying that it might be helpful.

Though I highly respect Dr. Levy for all his dedictation to patients (he immediately replyed an email from me, something my otherwise reasonable GP never would do), I do disagree with him at times too.

However, one thing one can't say about him is that he is lazy with references. His new and free 'Rapid Virus Recovery' ebook linked to above contains a total of 50! pages listing only scientific references.

Needless to say, before I get to plough through that many studies, I probably much likely just start nebulzing.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
Dr Brewer used the antifungal drug amphotericin. We cannot get that in UK although nystatin should work well too.
I’ve used nystatin powder in both nasal sprays and sinus rinses (fun fact: NY=New York; STAT=state; IN=in). My New York doctor told me that nystatin comes from the earth in New York State.)

I found that the important thing when using nystatin the nose is to dilute it much more than you would think you should as it is very potent.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
I probably much likely just start nebulzing.

I think hydrogen peroxide may be safe for short term exposures like gargling, but I remember some years ago seeing a study linking hydrogen peroxide inhalation from cigarettes to lung cancer. So if you were spraying hydrogen peroxide into the nasal cavity where it may remain for some hours, perhaps that could be dangerous.

(Hydrogen peroxide is not the only carcinogen in cigarettes: nicotine, although not itself carcinogenic, turns into a highly potent carcinogen in the body called nitrosamines).
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
I found that the important thing when using nystatin the nose is to dilute it much more than you would think you should as it is very potent.

It really is. I was prescribed Nystatin powder for gut Candida. I diluted it in water and then drank it, as per this Myhill protocol. it completely wiped me out even at very low doses (but ultimately did me a lot of good).
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
So if you were spraying hydrogen peroxide into the nasal cavity where it may remain for some hours, perhaps that could be dangerous.

Interesting. Somewhere in his ebook (I haven't finshed reading) he writes that hydrogen peroxide nebulation in his clinical experience was especially beneficial in smokers emphysema. He mentions in the introduction that with hydrogen peroxide the dose makes the poison. Therefore always highly deluded. And that up to 5% of oxygen-intake might be used up by the body itself to produce hydrogen peroxide important in many metabolic functions.

The article of the study you linked to was invitro with cells exposed to tabacco smoke and hydrogen peroxide. Wouldn't be surprised they used non-diluted.

Also the little bid 3% solution I tried in my mouth instandly bubled away.

He describes the wanted Fenton reaction to clear pathogens this way:

Electron donor (usually vitamin C) + Fe3 = Fe2
Fe2 + H2O2 (HP) = Hydroxyl radical + Hydroxide ion (whch proceeds to form water)
 
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seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
So after a few days of sniffing cumin essential oil I've started to notice a worsening of fatigue, but also headaches and some other changes.

This could be herx or it could be that you're not supposed to sniff cumin essential oil like that... if I was sure this was herx I could continue, but I'm gonna try the iodine salt pipe idea. I don't usually get headaches so I'm not confident that it's herx I'm having. Iodine and salt pipe come on Monday.

How you faring @Hip
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
good luck @seamyb , let us know how you get on. And what method you use, I still haven't completely gotten my head round how it's supposed to be done.

Out of interest have you ever been tested for mycotoxins? Or for Candida or other funguses in the gut or elsewhere? I only ask about the latter because it was the presence of fungus in my gut (and the subsequent success I had treating it with antifungals) that alerted Dr Myhill to the possibility I might have high mycotoxin levels. She ended up being right.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
How you faring @Hip

I am getting significant Herxing again, since starting the anti-biofilm nasal spray a several days back. I did not even apply the spray in the last two days, but the Herx is still occurring.

It really is quite surprising how such a seemingly innocuous nasal spray could trigger such a strong Herx. It seems to offer evidence that there is something going on in the nasal cavity or nasopharynx.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Out of interest have you ever been tested for mycotoxins? Or for Candida or other funguses in the gut or elsewhere?

Nope. I was considering it. I probably should but I'm impatient and don't want to bother waiting for test results when I can try treating it. I have signs that my sinuses and Air passages are involved. So for now this and brewer's findings have me believing if I just breathe some iodine in I'll be cured. Ha!

As for the candida, my only gut issues went away when taking b12. Given that b12 is said to feed candida I've concluded that that was not my issue. And they've remained fixed with cumin and glutathione, all presumably by their antioxidant properties. So I'm not currently going down that road.

I did not even apply the spray in the last two days, but the Herx is still occurring.

What are your herx symptoms hip? It really does sound like this is working on a problem.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
I am getting significant Herxing again, since starting the anti-biofilm nasal spray a several days back. I did not even apply the spray in the last two days, but the Herx is still occurring.

It really is quite surprising how such a seemingly innocuous nasal spray could trigger such a strong Herx. It seems to offer evidence that there is something going on in the nasal cavity or nasopharynx.

For what it's worth, some of my bad Nystatin herx's would up to a week. Also - word of warning - often by the time they hit it was already too late, as in, the Herxheimer reaction would be delayed, to the point where I should have stopped well before I did (of course there's no way of knowing that until it hits)