Just a few sprays of a home-made Dr Brewer antifungal nasal spray for nasal mold triggered significant PEM

[Hip]

This study found that 2% povidone-iodine eliminated nasal S. aureus biofilm in mice:

Wow, that's an interesting find, Cipher! A double benefit from povidone-iodine: it kills a very wide range of micro-organisms, and it breaks down biofilms as well.

The study you quoted says:

PVP-I [povidone-iodine] is one of the few topical antimicrobials shown to be effective against bacteria, viruses, yeast, spores, protozoa, and amoebae.

PVP-I composite can not only inhibit the formation of bacteria biofilms but also potentially eradicate already formed bacteria biofilms.

 

[Hip]

Just noticed that if you add N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) to a solution of povidone-iodine, the brown color of the povidone-iodine solution turns clear. So I think NAC may be reacting with the povidone-iodine, and changing the povidone-iodine into something else. This I think means that you could not have both NAC and povidone-iodine in the same nasal spray solution.

Which is a shame, because I wanted to place both in a nasal spray, for a good anti-biofilm effect.

But I guess it would be possible to use say a NAC nasal spray in the morning, and a povidone-iodine nasal spray in the evening.

 

[seamyb]

Just noticed that if you add N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) to a solution of povidone-iodine, the brown color of the povidone-iodine solution turns clear. So I think NAC may be reacting with the povidone-iodine, and changing the povidone-iodine into something else. This I think means that you could not have both NAC and povidone-iodine in the same nasal spray solution.

Which is a shame, because I wanted to place both in a nasal spray, for a good anti-biofilm effect.

But I guess it would be possible to use say a NAC nasal spray in the morning, and a povidone-iodine nasal spray in the evening.

Well that'd be closer to what Brewer suggests.

I take it that the iodine is what breaks the biofilm? Not the providone?

 

[Hip]

I take it that the iodine is what breaks the biofilm? Not the providone?

Povidone-iodine is a single molecule, rather than two chemicals together in solution. But the povidone-iodine molecule breaks down on the skin or mucous membranes, and slowly releases iodine over many hours. This is why povidone-iodine is more effective than just iodine as a disinfectant, because regular iodine will be dispersed after a while. When surgeons disinfect their hands and arms prior to performing surgery, they use povidone-iodine.

The study did not detail the mechanism of povidone-iodine's biofilm disruption. So I am not sure how it works.

With disodium EDTA, this molecule sequesters calcium and other minerals from the biofilm, and that is how it breaks it down.

 

[seamyb]

Povidone-iodine is a single molecule, rather than two chemicals together in solution. But the povidone-iodine molecule breaks down on the skin or mucous membranes, and slowly releases iodine over many hours. This is why povidone-iodine is more effective than just iodine as a disinfectant.

The study did not detail the mechanism of povidone-iodine's biofilm disruption. So I am not sure how it works.

With disodium EDTA, this molecule sequesters calcium and other minerals from the biofilm, and that is how it breaks it down.

I'm trying to work out a way of inhaling a vapour that breaks down biofilm. A gas has the benefits of reaching the lungs and also being able to be forced up through the sinuses close to the ears and eyes.

Myhill only recommended iodine and surely Myhill wouldn't just go with a whim... surely, surely.

 

[seamyb]

So, one thing I was thinking was just making a solution of NAC and putting it on the iodine on the cotton or kitchen roll, hoping the vapour would carry the NAC... but your change of colour doesn't sound promising.

 

[hb8847]

I'm trying to work out a way of inhaling a vapour that breaks down biofilm. A gas has the benefits of reaching the lungs and also being able to be forced up through the sinuses close to the ears and eyes.

Myhill only recommended iodine and surely Myhill wouldn't just go with a whim... surely, surely.

Here is Myhill on the use of iodine:

Dr Brewer used the antifungal drug amphotericin. We cannot get that in UK although nystatin should work well too. However, I have been using iodine. The joy of iodine is that it contact-kills all microbes, is cheap, easy and extremely safe. Already I have had some good clinical feedback.

And re the inhalation method:

Use a salt pipe (cost about £15). Drizzle Lugol’s iodine 15% 1-4 drops (whatever is tolerated) into the mouth piece– inhale through the mouth blow out through the nose. Iodine is volatile. Use Valsalva manoeuvre to blow the iodine into the middle ear and sinuses. See "Go Flight Med" Website - clearing your ears AND/OR sniff directly into the nose. Keep going until the iodine smell goes – iodine gets everywhere, and tiny amounts kill all microbes! Also sniff this directly into the nose. Do this at least three times daily but as often as convenient………..………..indeed any chronic infection, bacterial viral or fungal would be killed with this.

So presumably if the iodine is mixed in a solution with the water, you would be inhaling it into the lungs as water vapour? I guess you could always increase the dose if your worried it's not having an effect, eventually you'll get a Herx if it is...

 

[seamyb]

I'm not sure a herx is a given... or at least not definitely as hellish as it can be. I think I've been slowly improving with only minor symptoms - although it's very early of course.

I'm thinking though, it might be a good idea to take a binder orally anyway. I've been getting a lot of mucus come down the back of my throat and it's not always possible to spit it out. Perhaps this can cause issues in the stomach or gut if it's dying microbes and toxic.

4 drops of the iodine should definitely be enough. You can really feel it and it stings the airways. It's not unbearable, but it's pretty powerful. Feels like a stingy cleaning. Although I may increase the frequency of doing it to beyond 3 a day.

 

[hb8847]

I'm not sure a herx is a given... or at least not definitely as hellish as it can be. I think I've been slowly improving with only minor symptoms - although it's very early of course.

This is true. Only 1/3 of Brewer's patients had side effects from his nasal spray treatment, if you just get better without a Herx at all that would be amazing.

I'm thinking though, it might be a good idea to take a binder orally anyway. I've been getting a lot of mucus come down the back of my throat and it's not always possible to spit it out. Perhaps this can cause issues in the stomach or gut if it's dying microbes and toxic.

Intersting, so the iodine triggers mucus does it? I wonder how much of that is microbial/fungal or whether it's just due to irritation of the airwaves. In any case I probably wouldn't worry overly about it causing issue in gut, stomach acid is very good at killing microbes and these would just be toxins. Worst that happens is some endotoxins make their way to the blood stream but then you'd probably just feel that as a Herx.

 

[seamyb]

Intersting, so the iodine triggers mucus does it?

Yes. It has made me generally feel more like I have a sinus infection. Before, I had one symptom relating to the sinuses - a deep pop when I got air hunger. But now my nose feels bunged up, it runs after a dose of iodine and generally feels quite irritated up there.

 

[hb8847]

Hmm, that doesn't sound too pleasant.

For what it's worth here again is what Myhill said about adverse reactions:

The 34% of ME patients who could not tolerate the intranasal antifungals suffered two sorts of adverse events:

• Those local to upper airways such as burning, congestion, nosebleeds, stuffiness, rhinorrhoea, and nasal/sinus pain.
• Systemic reactions such as exacerbation of baseline symptoms such as fatigue (most common), headache, body aching and cognitive dysfunction.

These are typical die off or Herxheimer reactions - interested readers should see the Wikipedia page on Jarisch–Herxheimer reactions. Knowing what we know now I would have encouraged those patients to plug on with the therapy, perhaps reducing the treatment to a level that was tolerable then increasing. Indeed, Brewer noted that in those who did stick the treatment, the reactions subsided within 4 weeks.

Sounds like you're getting more of the former, but she indicates this is also a Herx reaction?

 

[Cipher]

But now my nose feels bunged up, it runs after a dose of iodine and generally feels quite irritated up there.

Just a word of caution:

Because it contains free iodine, Lugol's solution at 2% or 5% concentration without dilution is irritating and destructive to mucosa, such as the lining of the esophagus and stomach. Doses of 10 mL of undiluted 5% solution have been reported to cause gastric lesions when used in endoscopy.
source

Povidone-iodine is safer as it releases small amounts of free iodine during an extended period of time.

 

[hb8847]

Also on a further note, have any of you been tested for mycotoxins?

I keep coming back to the point about Brewer's study, I find it pretty astounding (quote from Myhill site):

Dr Brewer developed a test to look for mycotoxins in the urine and applied this to patients with ME. In his first paper "Detection of mycotoxins in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, Brewer et al" he found that 93% of 112 ME patients had at least one mycotoxin in their urine, with ochratoxin being the commonest.

...

Then he treated the 151 ME patients who tested positive for urinary mycotoxins with intranasal antifungals. 34% could not tolerate the treatment. Of those that did, 94% saw “marked improvement” with some patients considering themselves to be “cured”. Dr Brewer continued treatment for 12 months and followed up regularly, Patients improved clinically and this was paralleled by falling levels of mycotoxin in the urine.

So Brewer tested a random sample of 151 of his ME/CFS patients for mycotoxins and 93% tested positive, compared to just 7% of healthy controls.

He then treated those patients with biofilm disruptors and antifungals - of those who could tolerate the treatment 94% got considerably better.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but this still seems pretty mind-blowing to me. And I'm confused that treating for mould doesn't seem to be a bigger part of this forum and the ME community, nor is testing for mould or mycotoxins... Could this not be the thing underlying most peoples' ME/CFS?

 

[Hip]

Povidone-iodine is safer as it releases small amounts of free iodine during an extended period of time.

The povidone-iodine I am using is the Videne Antiseptic Solution, which is 10% povidone-iodine.

The Videne manufacturer's page says:

a broad range of indications - skin, mucous membrane and wound antisepsis

Contraindications: Videne must not be used in hyperthyroidism or other manifest thyroid diseases.

I dilute this 1 part solution to 19 parts distilled water to make a 0.5% povidone-iodine solution, which I find is quite confortable on the nose.

Also a good idea to add some salt, to create physiological solution (= the same salinity as your body tissues), as this will increase comfort in the nose. Physiological solution is 900 mg salt in each 100 ml of water.

I then place the 0.5% povidone-iodine in a nasal spray bottle.

Videne Antiseptic Solution (Pink Label)

The Videne Alcoholic Tincture (green label) product is not going to be suitable for use in the nose, as the alcohol will sting.

 

[seamyb]

I imagine though that by inhaling the vapour and not actually putting the liquid up my nose, that it's already quite "dilute" or present in quantities similar to a dilute solution?

 

[seamyb]

Haven't felt sick once today and haven't taken anything other than the iodine, so nothing to keep symptoms at bay. All I'd been using recently was cumin which has an effective duration of a few hours, so I've got no residual effects from anything I've taken over the past few days.

One day is obviously not a remission, but it's a very very good sign.

 

[hb8847]

@seamyb So you're taking the Myhill Iodine or the povidone stuff?

And when you say you haven't felt sick once today, does that mean all your symptoms are gone? Or just that you're not getting side effects from Iodine?

 

[seamyb]

@seamyb So you're taking the Myhill Iodine or the povidone stuff?

And when you say you haven't felt sick once today, does that mean all your symptoms are gone? Or just that you're not getting side effects from Iodine?

Normal lugol's iodine, not povidone.

I mean my CFS symptoms - particularly fatigue and feeling ill/malaise/feeling poisoned. This is what is gone and it's a significant statistical signal. A good day for me is only a few hours of feeling like this and that's when I've taken stuff to alleviate it.

I actually have a few body aches and my stiff neck I fear will become CCI is still there - but this may take a lot of time with no toxic compounds attacking it in order to heal. But my pain is very mild and I think the body aches other than the neck stiffness may be a side effect of the iodine.

I have low level air hunger, but I think the iodine is aggravating it - which may also be a good sign. Again, very mild.

I'm really only concerned about the fatigue and feeling ill. I'd grow genitals on my face to get rid of it.

Edited to clarify.

 

[hb8847]

Wow well that's amazing. Long may it last, & keep us posted.

 

[seamyb]

I'm gonna update here quite frequently, I hope you all don't mind. Any little observation I make. Feel free to ignore or chime in.

I had a large meal and usually I feel terrible while digesting something so substantial. I did feel a dip in my energy. I felt a bit tired. It was disheartening to experience it, but it really was just a bit tired. Bounced back sharpish.

Same with a shower. Usually I'd feel ill after. I'm sitting here a bit tired. Ready to go to bed feeling pretty good.

My heart rate spikes haven't changed. In fact I had a large one earlier and didn't notice and can't for the life of me work out what I did to cause it. There was no change to my good condition after it either. Of course, the shower caused it to sky rocket.

My tinnitus is quite loud. Possibly shooting iodine up into my head is causing it to sing. B12 used to do good things for my tinnitus alongside the improvements to symptoms. So I'm hoping it goes away if I cure myself.

I've been sleeping long hours at night recently, which is something I need to improve. But I've been waking up after about 6 or 7 hours feeling like I could maybe get up now, rather than feeling like total death, but then deciding to sleep on. There seem to be improvements here, but it's something I'll be paying close attention to.