High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

[aaron_c]

I may have answered my own question? Here's one random site that claimes Benfotiamine has five times the strength of B1. Though I don't know if that's molecule-for-molecule or mg-for-mg.

https://thebenfotiamineproject.com/47/dosage/

 

[ljimbo423]

I may have answered my own question? Here's one random site that claimes Benfotiamine has five times the strength of B1. Though I don't know if that's molecule-for-molecule or mg-for-mg.

https://thebenfotiamineproject.com/47/dosage/

Thanks for this link. I'm going to switch from B-1 to benfotiamine tomorrow. I was going to do it mg for mg. Now I think I'll start at a much lower dose than I'm taking of the B-1.

 

[tiredowl]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25695433

Benfotiamine attenuates inflammatory reponse in LPS stimulated microglia.

Maybe this could be a good thing?

 

[gbells]

The only B vitamin I take separately is B12 which I vape because you get a high dose. For the other Bs I like to use a B50 combination supplement. I think they have to be balanced anyway so it works well. Vegetables are the main source of B vitamins so I make sure I'm eating lots of green beans, okra, etc.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Been taking high dose thiamine for about 8 days so thought I'd add my experience. My dosing schedule:

I'm taking this one nothing fancy: https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/natures-aid-vitamin-b1-thiamin-100-mg-90-tablets/142527
Dosing was like this for me
Day1: 25mg start dose to check tolerance
Day2: 100mg
Day3: 300mg
Day4: 600mg
Day5: 800mg
Day6: 800mg
Day7: 1200mg
Day8: 1200mg
Day9: 800mg

From days 4 to 6 I was very spaced out and had an increase in occipital lymph node swelling and felt like I was floating through the day most of the time. Not dizzy but spaced out. Dr Kristina Orr who prescribes Nimodipine for increasing cerebral spinal flow (which high dose thiamine also appears to do). So it does make me wonder if high dose thiamine does the same thing. I tried Nimodipine about 2 weeks ago with some unpleasant side effects, whereas with the thiamine I didn't have any of those horrid side effects.

On Day 7 was when it kicked in and I noticed my cells physically waking up. About 30 minutes the dosing I could feel what is probably best described as blood/nutrients rushing into muscles/cells in the body. I've had this experience before with omega 3 fish oil (if I don't take it for 2 weeks and then take it, I have the same experience but it occurs over about an hour or two) and I've had the same experience with siberian ginseng, where over the course of an hour my body will gradually wake up after not taking it for 2 weeks.

I gradually increased my exercise on days 4 to 7 and noticed no improvement until day 7 when the swelling at th eback of my head and down into my neck appeared to "shift". I had this sudden warm cloth like feeling in my neck, like it had become very warm and then the stiffness and swelling just abated. Interestingly the symptom of swelling and stiffness moved further down my spine, maybe 4 or 5 cervical points down so upper back area. This was stiff tender and a bit painful. But then this also went by Day 8.

I've not got the dosing right yet, I think 800mg to 1000mg is my limit due to sleep disturbance. But so far going very well. I am also taking small amounts of glycine and cysteine (about 150mg each) and some inosine, but the consistent energy and physical strength I feel appears to have come from the thiamine and not the others.

I've also noticed the thiamine calms me down when I take it, this wears off pretty quickly (within an hour) but I would say overall I actually feel a lot calmer. Whether this is less cellular stress from dodgy energy processes or bodily inflammation or subduing viral infections I am not sure, but it's interesting.

I'm going to test my exertional limits anyway (not exercise just driving for now!) so will report back.

@Mary

 

[themjay]

@godlovesatrier Thanks for your information - are you spreading the dose throughout the day?

 

[godlovesatrier]

No problem. I'm taking it all in one go at the moment. I guess you could say it's early days for getting the dose right. I'm actually debating taking 600mg if I'm not having a very busy day and 1000mg on a day with lots of activity

800mg doesn't seem to interfere with sleep though. So I might remain at that.

 

[Mary]

@godlovesatrier - I'm glad to hear you're having such good results! Those are high doses but they're mentioned in this Health Rising article, which references a 2013 study which used those high doses: Could High-Dose Thiamine (B-1) Help with ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, and the Neurological Complications of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome? - Health Rising

It sounds like you didn't have any refeeding syndrome or low phosphorous issues, which is a good thing. I was amazed when I first took thiamine, just 100 mg. It made a big difference in my energy in just one day. After sorting out the low phosphorous issue, I titrated up to 200 - 300 mg a day, but am now at 200 mg - keep us posted!

 

[godlovesatrier]

It's amazing honestly. Just hoping it continues. I can't see any other refeeding issues, so fingers crossed that's it! @Mary

I do have transdermal methyl b12 but my body rarely needs that. Once a month probably.

I'll definitely keep you all posted.

Quick update: so today I thought I'd test myself doing a long drive. In the end I opted for something a bit less taxing just do I didn't overdo it. While I did feel mildly dizzy while driving, compared to how I used to feel it's honestly like a 60 or 70% reduction in dizziness and general "head swimming" sensations. I also only took 800mg which I didn't mean to do, I meant to take about 1100mg. So if I had taken the right amount things might have been different. As it was I drove for about 40 minutes, then went for a walk and even managed a conversation in a local pottery workshop (I really used to love ceramics). And I was absolutely fine - in fact it was easier talking than it was driving. Bizarre to feel good stood up!! My neck did get a little stiff driving back and a little inflamed, it's still a bit stiff now. But I haven't crashed and I did wake up very very mildly fatigued.

One other thing to note, my muscles appear to be sore now, whereas before they were stiff/very fatigued/painful (when crashing). I wonder if the enzyme/s that b1 effects causes a switch to aerobic respiration instead of anaerobic. As my muscles felt sore in a good way, not a bad way. As for the neck and spine inflammation, I am hoping adding some LDN into the mix will fix that.

I also think I might (hedging my bets? ) be gaining improvements every day, but I'll just have to see how the next month goes.

If anyone does try thiamine and has difficulty sleeping at the higher doses. I found melatonin and 5-htp worked really well. Someone else also recommended nytol 50mg tablets, which I believe are not meant to be taken long term, but half a tablet helps as well when combined with the other two. So one to note.

 

[themjay]

I'm finding higher doses are inducing increased neuropathy in my legs. This is odd as I have being taking 250mg benfotiamine for a year now which seems to lower this. Has anyone got any ideas as to why this might be
please?

edit. Just looked a the recent Health rising discussion on this and someone said:
"’I've done very well on 750 mg of Benfotiamine daily. But, swayed by followers of Derek Lonsdale who banged the drum of taking specific forms of thiamine, namely TTFD or allithiamine, I decided to try their method. None of them could tell me any kind of conversion between the different forms of thiamine, so I decided to be conservative and tried 300 mg of Thiamax, one of the forms that was so highly touted.

Much to my surprise, I develop neuropathy in my hands and feet within 4 days of taking the stuff. It took me a couple of weeks to figure that out, and I dropped them and all together, and gradually added back in my benfotismin over a month, and it took the full month to reverse the thiamin caused neuropathy."

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hmm interesting. I am taking just plain thiamine. Not any of the other types.

You could try plain thiamine and see if your respond better at higher doses?

Out of interest what symptoms do you get in your legs?

 

[themjay]

It is normal thiamine I have switched to. Previously I too was taking Benfotiamine.
I am getting bad neuropathy - burning, stabbing, pin pricks etc exactly what I was taking the Benfotiamine to resolve!

 

[godlovesatrier]

Does anyone know the difference between thiamine mononitrate and thiamine hydrochloride? I switched to mononitrate (totally by accident) and have noticed the effects are a lot less pronounced but nowhere near what they were to begin with. Still very useful, but not as potent. The studies I can find only seem to work with hydrochloride, which makes me think mononitrate might not be very good.

Does anyone know the difference between the two? Thanks.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Switched back to hydrochloride today but sadly it didn't correct the dazed, slightly unsteady feeling I am currently experiencing. Not sure if this is the Thiamine not really working very well anymore. On the contrary it still works, there's no achiness or swelling in my neck or back of the head at all. I also wake up with no muscle fatigue, but have started to wake increasingly tired each day. So I am not really sure what's going on there. I don't think it's low phos or potassium because I get a lot of that from my diet. But I am not sure what the unsteadiness is all about.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Have been titrating down on the thiamine as I've been feeling a bit dizzier than usual and woozy. Still got energy and still PEM buffered - in the sense that fatigue doesn't really come on and my body doesn't crash very easily anymore.

However when I stopped altogether today I did feel my cells "cycle down", which generally feels like a very icy cold temperature hitting my cells, almost like their nutrient or oxygen supply tanks. My sore throat began to rage whereas it's almost gone when I take thiamine and in general I felt unwell. I then took 800mg of thiamine and in about 30 minutes began to feel tons better, plus my sore throat went away gradually over an hour and my sinuses in general felt a lot better.

I think I am going to try and find some phosphorous to rule that out as a refeeding issue!

 

[EtherSpin]

This all intrigues me cause in my battle to NOT get diagnosed with ME/CFS I tried oodles of Nootopics (cognitive targeted supplements) and the one with the weirdest reaction was supposedly stimulatory and comes with potential insomnia
A thiamine derivative from Japan, Sulbutiamine would make me rapidly feel weird (after nothing) 4 hours after dosing where I'd actually pass into deep dopey sleep when I AM insomniac.
Now I'm wondering if it was brain targeting resumption of some vital cycle? I couldn't find anyone else in the nootropics tinkerers who had that reaction
Sulbutiamine Wiki article

 

[L'engle]

and the one with the weirdest reaction was supposedly stimulatory and comes with potential insomnia
A thiamine derivative from Japan, Sulbutiamine would make me rapidly feel weird (after nothing) 4 hours after dosing where I'd actually pass into deep dopey sleep when I AM insomniac.

Sorry but are you talking about one thing here(thiamine) or two separate things with the thiamine mitigating the effects of the first thing? Thanks.

 

[EtherSpin]

Sorry but are you talking about one thing here(thiamine) or two separate things with the thiamine mitigating the effects of the first thing? Thanks.

Apologies for bad wording.

I haven't yet tried straight up B1, only Sulbutiamine , the Japanese derivative and to that I had the weird reaction (induced me into sleep) counter to anything I've heard of in non CFS individuals who take Sulbutiamine for general cognitive benefits from the thing OR some Asian folks who I think take it as they genetically have less effective B1 absorption

I'm gonna acquire B1 today and try a dose almost as high as the one quoted in the new study

 

[L'engle]

@EtherSpin Thanks for clarifying. Good luck with the B1.

 

[Judee]

Thanks for this link. I'm going to switch from B-1 to benfotiamine tomorrow. I was going to do it mg for mg. Now I think I'll start at a much lower dose than I'm taking of the B-1.

Long time ago post but do you happen to remember if you had any type of reaction when you switched from thiamine to benfotiamine?

I tried that today and it's made me nauseated and gave me a headache. (I get headaches but usually don't get nauseated very often and that was the only change I made today.) The pill I took was 100mg benfotiamine and 25mg thiamine.