High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

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I think the concern is that thiamine supplementation induces refeeding syndrome, in which potassium and electrolyte depletion is a possibility. On the other hand, correcting a thiamine deficiency may also normalise electrolyte imbalances. I reported the following earlier in another thread.

Acute thiamine deficiency and refeeding syndrome: Similar findings but different pathogenesis

A similar finding from this case report:

Thiamin and folic acid deficiency accompanied by resistant electrolyte imbalance in the re-feeding syndrome in an elderly patient
I understand the concern about thiamine causing refeeding syndrome, but despite a lot of discussion about it possibly causing potassium deficiency I haven't seen a single primary source that confirms that. That might be because i'm not parsing things too well with my brain fog, so correct me if Im wrong.
 

sb4

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@iwillwin1day I'm still taking thiamine, I'm assuming it's still having beneficial effects. As for why these wear off, could it be you are inducing over deficiencies that now need taking care of? There is a thread somewhere on here about b1 inducing refeeding sydrome. Perhaps you should check it out.
 

JasonUT

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Yes, I continue to take high dose B1 via TTFD at 50mg TID in Lipothiamine form. But I also take high dose B3 (500 mg BID) and B5 (500 mg TID). I continue to improve. For me, B1 deficiency appears to be only 1 of many facets that needed to be addressed. I don't know how many facets I have left to solve.

Post #30 are my thoughts on refeeding syndrome. There are many more posts on the topic.

Post #67 I discuss my thoughts on the relationships that exist with B1 and other B Vitamins.

Post #89 I discuss how high dose Lipothimiane TTFD fixed my B1 deficiency issue. Other forms of B1 were useless for me. "Thiamine HCl and thiamine mononitrate was useless to replenish B1. I switched to Lipothiamine at 400 mg and it worked based on 10/23/2017 test results."

Post #97 I theorize that fixing B1 via TTFD unclogged a log jam. "Did improving B1 and B3 improve Carbs to Acetyl CoA (B1, B2, B3, B5) pathway and Keto Acids to Acetyl CoA (B1, B2, B3, B5) pathway? Did I release the log jam and suddenly demand for B2 and B5 was created which didn't exist before due to B1 and B3 deficiency?"
 
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I tried regular Thiamine for a few days at 500 mg dose. For me it was very effective but 500 mg was too much for me (had insomnia). Maybe I try to half the dose.

Though usually most supplements lose their effectiveness when taken daily for a while so I wonder if vitamin B1 also does that.
 

Asklipia

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I noticed an interesting post today by @kangaSue about Disseminated Histoplamosis.
I looked at the link she provided and it rings a bell for me about symptoms, aetiology of the start of my problems.

There is an article by Leo Pine about the effect of thiamine on Histoplasma, which indicates that thiamine is absolutely necessary for the growth of Histoplasma, but that it cannot make it itself.
This could be one of the causes of Thiamine Deficiency, could it not? The Histoplasma gobbling our thiamine?

Also here in another article it says about Histoplasma : "At low concentrations, some of the disulfide derivatives of thiamine stimulated growth equally as well as thiamine, but at concentrations of 100 to 150µg/ml, they completely inhibited growth."

Could this be one of the reasons why I feel completely cured after all this lipophilic (disulfide) thiamine supplementation? Which I have reduced but do not intend to stop.

Good luck to all!
Asklipia
@Hip @anne_likes_red @Gondwanaland sorry no time to add more
 
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Asklipia

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@kangaSue
Very interesting this Belgian study. It says:
Dibenzoylthiamine was most efficient, affording complete protection of cells at 10-20 µM. It also caused the highest increase in intracellular thiamine, suggesting that the protection from oxidative damage is linked to increased levels of free thiamine (rather than thiamine diphosphate) in the neuroblastoma cells.
Dibenzoylthiaminre is also called "Bentiamine", not to be confused with Benfotiamine, and it seems that in Japan it has been used for years to fortify rice.

Does not seem to be very popular in the West? I cannot find it anywhere.
 

kangaSue

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Dibenzoylthiaminre is also called "Bentiamine", not to be confused with Benfotiamine, and it seems that in Japan it has been used for years to fortify rice
Well there you go, duly noted now and I have come across mention of bentiamine somewhere before but I thought it was a typo and they were meaning bentofiamine!
 
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Does anyone know what the dose equivalence between allithiamine and thiamine hcl would be. I am used to taking more than 1 gram of thiamine hcl and don’t want to overdose on the allithiamine but think I may have overdone it a little bit. I have been taking around 200 mg/day of allithiamine for a little bit. Hard to find info of dose equivalence.
 
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I have ecological formulas brand allithiamine but on the ingredients it lists TTFD which is not allithiamine but is a similar fat soluble thiamine derivative/analogue. This innacuracy disturbs me as I don’t know f the doses are equivalent
 

ljimbo423

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I don't know what the conversion is but @nanonug was taking 200mg a day of allithiamine. Fursurtiamine is another name for allithiamine.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/from-brain-fog-to-clarity-in-30-minutes.58142/ POST#5

EDIT- It looks like he might have been taking the same brand as you. The Ecological Formulas brand.
 

Mary

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I understand the concern about thiamine causing refeeding syndrome, but despite a lot of discussion about it possibly causing potassium deficiency I haven't seen a single primary source that confirms that. That might be because i'm not parsing things too well with my brain fog, so correct me if Im wrong.
I just saw this thread today. Thiamine actually induced a phosphorous deficiency for me, not potassium. Methylfolate induced a potassium deficiency for me, although interestingly it was after the methylfolate-induced potassium deficiency that I realized the severe fatigue was very familiar - I'd had it before I started taking the methylfolate, only I never knew what it was. Persons with ME/CFS often have low intracellular potassium despite normal blood work. (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291422)
I've been taking supplemental potassium daily since 2010 and no longer experience symptoms of low potassium, or if I do, they're very mild (foot twitches or cramps) and easily corrected.

Re thiamine - I started taking thiamine a few years ago after reading how it had helped some people a lot with energy. I took 100 mg. and the next day I felt great - the energy was fabulous - and then the next severe fatigue hit. This had happened an earlier time several years ago when I tried thiamine, boom and bust, so I had to stop it the first time out, but this time I tried to sort it out. It felt different than low potassium - no muscle twitches and also potassium did nothing for this particular severe fatigue.

I had read that hypophosphatemia was the hallmark of refeeding syndrome, and I wondered if perhaps I was experiencing low phosphorous. The symptoms of low phosphorous include severe fatigue. So I read about food sources, dairy is a major source of phosphorous, I drank several glasses of kefir and within several hours the horrible fatigue started to dissipate. I eventually bought a monosodium phosphate supplement as I don't do well with a lot of dairy, and I've been able to keep taking the thiamine and have even increased it. Probably 3 times a week I take extra phosphate - it's in small doses. It's not like potassium where I could drink a couple of glasses of low-sodium V8 and get of potassium. I'm a lot more careful with the phosphorous.

Here's an article on refeeding syndrome which made me think of hypophosphatemia: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/
Refeeding syndrome can be defined as the potentially fatal shifts in fluids and electrolytes that may occur in malnourished patients receiving artificial refeeding (whether enterally or parenterally5). These shifts result from hormonal and metabolic changes and may cause serious clinical complications. The hallmark biochemical feature of refeeding syndrome is hypophosphataemia. However, the syndrome is complex and may also feature abnormal sodium and fluid balance; changes in glucose, protein, and fat metabolism; thiamine deficiency; hypokalaemia; and hypomagnesaemia
 

Asklipia

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Impossible to determine an equivalence between thiamine Hcl and lipophilic thiamines, because the whole point of using lipophilic thiamines is that they bypass the problems of thiamine destruction and thiamine malabsorption. Which are different from person to person and also depend on life choices and diet.
You have to be your own guineapig.

There is a difference between allithiamine and Allithiamine sold by Ecological Formulas.
- allithiamine is a natural substance found in infinitesimal amounts in garlic
- Allithiamine is a brand name, a product containing TTFD (fursulthiamine), a man-made lipophilic thiamine. It also contains, per 50 mg TTFD, 75 mg Calcium (as dicalcium phosphate), 58 mg Phosphorus (as dicalcium phosphate).
So it seems this might take care of a possible hypophosphataemia.
 

Gondwanaland

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i assume only way to detox would be to take binders like cholestyramine
There are many natural substances that decrease thiamine absorption, such as quercetin, silica, anything adstringent like coffee, resveratrol, green tea. Adstringent substances might decrease all fat-soluble vitamins as well though, one must be careful to not overdo it.
 

Kathevans

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i think i may have overdone it on the allithiamine, over time. Since its stored in the fat cells, i assume only way to detox would be to take binders like cholestyramine or just stop it and let things run their course
What makes you think this? Symptoms? How much did you take on a regular basis and for how long?

Just checking for my own comparisons! Not that I feel I've over done at this point. And in fact, I take Benfotiamin rather than the allithiamine, which I took for a while a year or so ago and which, over a period of a month or so, began to upset my stomach. This was probably just detox from the allicin, but the switch worked well...
 

aaron_c

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Quick question: Does anyone know the thiamine vs benfotiamine equivalencies? Like if I'm taking 100 mg of thiamine (HCl) then how much benfotiamine would be approximately equivalent?